Ukraine, Losing In Donbass...

[gipper]

Wow, and if true, then forgetting that in all of this would be amazing. That needs to also be addressed in the peace talks between the two at war with each other, because it needs to be gotten to the bottom of. It can't be ignored, and it has to be addressed by open minds seeking peace and equal justice.

You’re dreaming. The western leadership has no interest in stopping this war. They instigated, provoked, and continue to prosecute it.

Americans know nothing about O’s coup in 2014, the war in the Donbas since 2014 advanced by Kiev, the fraud committed by the West in refusing to negotiate with Russia in good faith in the Minsk Protocol to allow Ukraine time to arm itself for war, and has chosen to renege on their promise not to expand NATO eastward, and their refusal to consider Russia’s demands.

Americans know nothing about these things because they have a state controlled media, which promotes war propaganda 24/7.

 

[beagle9]

You’re dreaming. The western leadership has no interest in stopping this war. They instigated, provoked, and continue to prosecute it.

Americans know nothing about O’s coup in 2014, the war in the Donbas since 2014 advanced by Kiev, the fraud committed by the West in refusing to negotiate with Russia in good faith in the Minsk Protocol to allow Ukraine time to arm itself for war, and has chosen to renege on their promise not to expand NATO eastward, and their refusal to consider Russia’s demands.

Americans know nothing about these things because they have a state controlled media, which promotes war propaganda 24/7.

Let me ask this - Could it be that the Russian speaking Ukranian's were hostile to being in subjection to an independent Ukranian government, and therefore they were going to remain loyal to Moscow since the break up of the Soviet Union, and if so why were they resisting the government of Ukraine ? What was it that they didn't agree with or like about being member's of the Ukranian new independent government, otherwise after the break up of the Soviet Union ?

 

[Toro]

That's what Hohols have been doing from day one and the "civilised" morons of the world told vice versa. Amazing! Ask your grampa how it really works with their MO.

My grampa was English. I’m American. You’d be speaking German if it wasn’t for us, vatnyk. Nobody wants to be Russian. That’s why all your neighbors run away from you the first chance they get.

 

[Toro]

Proving once again what a complete and utter dupe you are of the establishment.

Thanks for the tankie perspective, gimper.

 

[gipper]

Let me ask this - Could it be that the Russian speaking Ukranian's were hostile to being in subjection to an independent Ukranian government, and therefore they were going to remain loyal to Moscow since the break up of the Soviet Union, and if so why were they resisting the government of Ukraine ? What was it that they didn't agree with or like about being member's of the Ukranian new independent government, otherwise after the break up of the Soviet Union ?

No it couldn’t be.

After the coup, the Ukranians in the east were most unhappy. You would be too. So Kiev pursued subjugating them. Even after the attacks on them they still supported Z in his election, because he promised peace. Of course he lied. The attacks increased and reports indicated Kiev was about to kickoff an offensive against the east, when Russia invaded.

 

[Toro]

No it couldn’t be.

After the coup, the Ukranians in the east were most unhappy. You would be too. So Kiev pursued subjugating them. Even after the attacks on them they still supported Z in his election, because he promised peace. Of course he lied. The attacks increased and reports indicated Kiev was about to kickoff an offensive against the east, when Russia invaded.

gimper always regurgitates Russian propaganda

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Let me ask this - Could it be that the Russian speaking Ukranian's were hostile to being in subjection to an independent Ukranian government, and therefore they were going to remain loyal to Moscow since the break up of the Soviet Union, and if so why were they resisting the government of Ukraine ? What was it that they didn't agree with or like about being member's of the Ukranian new independent government, otherwise after the break up of the Soviet Union ?

These seem to be honest questions and I see you want the U.S. to play a role as peacemaker and not warmonger in Ukraine. There is so much tragic history here, so much propaganda coming from both sides, it is really hard to keep a truly human perspective. The situation has degenerated from one in which intermarriage was frequent and shared statehood was assumed natural (after 1991) to a situation where different Russian / Ukrainian majority regions tended to vote for different oligarchs and parties, to street violence and local civil wars after Maidan, and finally now to all out war between Russia and the Ukrainian state.

There is no single Ukrainian “Russian-speakers” view of this tragic evolution. Russians in Russia are not the same as Russian speakers who long identified, or still identify, as Ukrainian. Zelensky himself was born in Russsia and speaks that language better than Ukrainian.

Many Russian-speakers certainly did fear Maidan and especially those right sector groups involved in it who openly praised WWII fascist “patriots” like Stepan Bandera. Even many pro-EU liberal Ukrainians accepted Bandera as an official “Hero of Ukraine” and defended right sector militia as necessary once street fighting broke out in 2014, though this was terrifying to Russians influenced by old Soviet or Russian nationalist views. Both sides made mistakes, and Russian “volunteers” from outside Ukraine’s borders joined in and expanded the civil war in Donbas, actually taking it over, making it into a state to state problem.

I would agree the West made diplomatic mistakes in handling this difficult evolving situation, but Putin’s state invasion last year was unwarranted and an international disaster. Putin will probably try at least one more big push, and continue missile strikes from safe launching pads in Belarus and Russia … before any real exhaustion sets in and raises the real possibility of a ceasefire.

I think the West is, regrettably, now locked into the absolute need to defend Ukraine … without providing troops or expanding the war openly against Russia proper. The basis for a successful ceasefire or peace negotiation will most likely eventually be based on pressuring Ukraine to give up its claims to Crimea, and forcing Russia to stop bombardments of Ukraine and threats of invasion. Much of Donbas will probably end as a “frozen conflict,” with much of the area almost unpopulated, largely destroyed, partly occupied by Russia, awaiting future developments.

I think the Biden Administration has handled this most recent phase of terrible all-out conventional war … about as well as can be expected. I really don’t see how Europe or the West could just stand by and allow Putin to triumph after Ukrainians succeeded in throwing back Putin’s invasion last year.

 

[eagle1462010]

Fuck Russia. Enjoy burying your dead for Odessa

 

[beagle9]

No it couldn’t be.

After the coup, the Ukranians in the east were most unhappy. You would be too. So Kiev pursued subjugating them. Even after the attacks on them they still supported Z in his election, because he promised peace. Of course he lied. The attacks increased and reports indicated Kiev was about to kickoff an offensive against the east, when Russia invaded.

I'm not to up to date on who is actually right and/or wrong in the early year's of the conflict, so it's super hard for many of us as average Americans to give a proper assessment of the entire lead up and action's that we are dealing with now.

I have a hard time trusting Ukraine after Biden and Hunter were in there doing shady deals with them, and it's hard to look at Russia in a blameful way after they were accused falsely of helping Donald Trump win the presidency. The truth in it all needs to come out somehow, otherwise as far as the American perspective goes.

 

[gipper]

These seem to be honest questions and I see you want the U.S. to play a role as peacemaker and not warmonger in Ukraine. There is so much tragic history here, so much propaganda coming from both sides, it is really hard to keep a truly human perspective. The situation has degenerated from one in which intermarriage was frequent and shared statehood was assumed natural (after 1991) to a situation where different Russian / Ukrainian majority regions tended to vote for different oligarchs and parties, to street violence and local civil wars after Maidan, and finally now to all out war between Russia and the Ukrainian state.

There is no single Ukrainian “Russian-speakers” view of this tragic evolution. Russians in Russia are not the same as Russian speakers who long identified, or still identify, as Ukrainian. Zelensky himself was born in Russsia and speaks that language better than Ukrainian.

Many Russian-speakers certainly did fear Maidan and especially those right sector groups involved in it who openly praised WWII fascist “patriots” like Stepan Bandera. Even many pro-EU liberal Ukrainians accepted Bandera as an official “Hero of Ukraine” and defended right sector militia as necessary once street fighting broke out in 2014, though this was terrifying to Russians influenced by old Soviet or Russian nationalist views. Both sides made mistakes, and Russian “volunteers” from outside Ukraine’s borders joined in and expanded the civil war in Donbas, actually taking it over, making it into a state to state problem.

I would agree the West made diplomatic mistakes in handling this difficult evolving situation, but Putin’s state invasion last year was unwarranted and an international disaster. Putin will probably try at least one more big push, and continue missile strikes from safe launching pads in Belarus and Russia … before any real exhaustion sets in and raises the real possibility of a ceasefire.

I think the West is, regrettably, now locked into the absolute need to defend Ukraine … without providing troops or expanding the war openly against Russia proper. The basis for a successful ceasefire or peace negotiation will most likely eventually be based on pressuring Ukraine to give up its claims to Crimea, and forcing Russia to stop bombardments of Ukraine and threats of invasion. Much of Donbas will probably end as a “frozen conflict,” with much of the area almost unpopulated, largely destroyed, partly occupied by Russia, awaiting future developments.

I think the Biden Administration has handled this most recent phase of terrible all-out conventional war … about as well as can be expected. I really don’t see how Europe or the West could just stand by and allow Putin to triumph after Ukrainians succeeded in throwing back Putin’s invasion last year.

Biden has the power to stop the killing, but he won’t. All he has to do is tell Ukraine to begin peace negotiations with Russia. Done deal.

 

[eagle1462010]

Biden has the power to stop the killing, but he won’t. All he has to do is tell Ukraine to begin peace negotiations with Russia. Done deal.

Once blood flows it never turns off.

Too many people who lost family already. Its now a blood fued as much as a war

 

[AlexanderPK]

My grampa was English. I’m American.

Is that the reason you're a tool?

 

[gipper]

Once blood flows it never turns off.

Too many people who lost family already. Its now a blood fued as much as a war

A consequence of war that all know is likely including the crooks running western governments and NATO, who actively worked to start and continue this war.

 

[gipper]

Is that the reason you're a tool?

No. He’s a dupe of the state. State run media propaganda works on the feeble minded.

 

[ESay]

Not willing to exhaust all options for a peaceful resolution to this thing, uhhhh is maybe us being war monger's instead of peacemaker's ??... Undoubtedly we are thinking it best to be on board with the attempt to defeat or deplete Russian power in the region by proxy, but will it work ??

I don't know whether it will work or not. This year will show much. But for me it is clear that the Putin regime will try to expand its influence even if some agreement is brokered. This year, or in 3 years, or 5 or whatever. When they will decide it is time.

What can stop them is a possible decisive response. Everything else is meaningless. Strong NATO and strong European armies in it. Eastern flanc should be a priority. If Ukraine is able to survive in some meaningful form, it should become a part of the common security area.

 

[AlexanderPK]

No. He’s a dupe of the state. State run media propaganda works on the feeble minded.

Simple dupe will do just fine or he might get haughty.

 

[gipper]

I don't know whether it will work or not. This year will show much. But for me it is clear that the Putin regime will try to expand its influence even if some agreement is brokered. This year, or in 3 years, or 5 or whatever. When they will decide it is time.

What can stop them is a possible decisive response. Everything else is meaningless. Strong NATO and strong European armies in it. Eastern flanc should be a priority. If Ukraine is able to survive in some meaningful form, it should become a part of the common security area.

Lol. You fear Putin is another Hitler yet his army can’t even take Ukraine. WTF!

Do you work for Raytheon or Northrop Grumman?

 

[ESay]

Lol. You fear Putin is another Hitler yet his army can’t even take Ukraine. WTF!

Do you work for Raytheon or Northrop Grumman?

I have already answered this question. Ask a therapist how to heal your dementia.

 

[gipper]

I have already answered this question. Ask a therapist how to heal your dementia.

Raytheon than.

 

[ESay]

Raytheon than.

A therapist, dude, until it is too late.