Two Ways to Help Stop Mass Shootings

[Vagabond63]

It is irrational to blame the victims in their own homes when they get attacked by people who breaks into the homes.

Perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully, as nowhere did I ever blame the victims. Oh, the correct phraseology should be, "..,by people who break into their homes." No, don't thank me, happy to help.

 

[Sunsettommy]

Well, I would be immensly surprised if that ever happened for sure, as my front door is one of those I mentioned earlier that has become more and more commonplce over here in the UK; one that has a three point locking system and made of composite materials and all but immune to police battering rams. If they tried to shoot out the lock, it would jam in locked position and the hinges are similarly protected.

I'm not defending an ideology, that's what you are doing.

As I've said countless times, I used to own guns and belonged to two shooting clubs; in my time I've fired every calibre from .22 up to a 120mm Chieftan tank gun. I'm not against gun ownership, I just find the American ideology behinf a system of giving out guns like confetti to anyone who wants one, a little rash and somewhat deranged.

Meanwhile you keep ignoring the failures on the part of the government who allow mentally unstable people who show that they are an imminent threat to the public.

 

[Vagabond63]

Meanwhile you keep ignoring the failures on the part of the government who allow mentally unstable people who show that they are an imminent threat to the public.

I suspect you are PUI as the above statement is nonsensical rambling.

 

[Sunsettommy]

I suspect you are PUI as the above statement is nonsensical rambling.

Actually, several times I made a post showing the government failures backed by sourced evidence.

Flopping Aces

The signs were there. They’re almost always there. No one was paying attention.​

Posted by DrJohn on 27 May, 2022

Excerpt:

Tucson. Parkland. Buffalo. Uvalde.

Jared Loughner. Nikolas Cruz. Peyton Gendron. Salvador Ramos.

Their stories are all the same.

They committed terrible crimes exacting unimaginable pain and loss. All were preventable had someone taken their job seriously.

Jared Loughner, who shot Gabby Giffords, was well known to Tucson police. He made numerous death threats. The cops were called to his house numerous times. He purchased a Glock after he made several death threats. They let him keep the weapon.

Nikolas Cruz posted “Im going to be a professional school shooter” on YouTube. The FBI was tipped off.

A person close to Cruz warned the FBI last month that he had a “desire to kill people” and could carry out a school shooting, the FBI admitted on Friday. The agency failed to act on the tip. The FBI was also warned about Cruz after he posted on YouTube saying he was going to become a “professional school shooter.” The agency said they couldn’t identify the user who made the threat, despite Cruz posting under his own name.

LINK

 

[Cellblock2429]

When you learn how to spell, maybe I'll answer your questions. Sensnse. Eargly.
What was that Trump said? "I love my uneducated voters?"

/——-/ When are you going to answer my question instead of hiding behind a typo I already corrected. Well, punk?

 

[Open Bolt]

I love how you guys go to such extemes to try to make death not a death that counts.

Pointing out that you are wrong is not going to extremes.

It has GOT to be exhausting finding loopholes to save your hobby.

Our hobby is not in danger. We merely explain to you why you are wrong as a courtesy.

You clearly have an idea of how fucked up you are being with regards to guns or you wouldn't go to so much effort, which is good to know that you guys aren't total psychopaths, but you should try once in a while to act like human life has SOME meaning to you.

Pointing out that you are wrong is hardly "fucked up". Neither does it requires any effort.

I am getting tired of you guys saying that.

Too bad. It is fair criticism.

At least we want to see SOMETHING DONE. You seem to just shrug your shoulders and walk on.
How is it that I'M the one who doesn't care???

If progressives want to engage in virtue signaling to show the world how much they CARE, I suggest that they burn down their own homes.

But no insurance fraud. Come clean to the authorities that you are doing it voluntarily to make a statement showing how much you CARE.

Just think how impressed the world will be when they see that you CARE so much that you willingly burned down your own homes.

because 20 little kids were so mangled that some couldn't be identified visually.

Why does it matter to you which sort of weapon is used to mangle kids?

The facts are: America has more guns per capita than any other developed nation on earth and we are the ONLY developed nation that has as many mass shootings and schoolhouse slaughters as we do.
YOU do the math.

The two stats that you listed here have no relation to each other.

Would you be willing to pay a surcharge on all gun and ammo purchases to support improved mental healthcare?

Of course not.

But I would be willing to tax progressive speech to cover it.

Well, it possibly indicates you think you have made a significant point but it is more telling that you don't really seem to understand statistics. It's not surprising that some people will have more than the per capita average. That's kind of how it all works.

Statistics show that gun availability has little impact on homicide rates.

I think you are missing the larger point. You are ONE DATA POINT. But there are MILLIONS of Americans like you. You have made sure there is a SEA of guns in our society. And not all other people are going to be as good about guarding their guns as you! That means a few evil-doers will have an EASIER time of getting ahold of a stolen gun to do evil with. That's the PROBABILITY ANGLE. If you swamp a nation with guns and you have millions of people of varying levels of responsibility you automatically increase the probability of bad things happening with those guns.
I know this is a subtle point but some day a gun enthusiast will come on this forum and have at least a nodding acquaintance with probability to see that that is part of the problem.
As such YOU are part of the problem.

There is no problem.

"Bad things" are bad regardless of whether a gun is involved.

Can I just say your rhetoric is so OVER-THE-TOP you sound like the world's biggest drama queen. You deserve an actor for chewing up so much scenery with you hyperbolic BS.

Nonsense. He is completely correct. There is no point in reasoning with the left. They need to be defeated at the ballot box.

You guys should go off and start your own country where everyone walks around settling scores with their guns. The rest of us would just like to go to our jobs, go to the theater, go to the grocery store without YOU LOT running around like unhinged psychos who strangely have access to deadly weaponry.
You know life doesn't HAVE to be a constant gun-battle. That's YOUR FANTASY. Not ours.
YOU are part of the problem. YOUR rhetoric, YOUR bizarre fears, YOU made this country into a gun-swamped pit full of paranoid loons.

There is no problem.

THIS ISN'T HOW THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD LIVES.

What rest of the free world? Most of the rest of the world isn't free.

If you mean the swath of countries from Finland to Switzerland where there is still freedom, those people do in fact live like that.

 

[Open Bolt]

-sigh- Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars? AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.

There is no requirement that you register your car unless you plan to drive it in public.

LOL. There's no developed first would country with the levels of shootings and gun homicides of the USA.
We are miles above anyone else.

So what? Murder victims would be just as dead if they were killed with some other kind of weapon.

What kind of hellhole do you live in?
Seriously. If you live in such a DANGEROUS part of America....f'in MOVE!

Some people might not be wealthy enough to pack up and move.

More importantly, people have the right to defend themselves if they choose to do so.

I have lived literally all over this country. The Midwest (where I was born), the Northeast where I worked for years, the Deep South where I spent years in my first postdoc and industry jobs, SoCal and the PNW and honestly I've NEVER lived in the kind of terror you lot seem to exist in every single day.

No one here has said anything about living in terror.

I have to have extensive testing in order to get the right to drive one.

Not if you only plan to drive on private property.

You guys live in abject terror of just waking up in the morning. Hence you need guns all around all the time.
Non-stop abject terror.
Shadows move? You jump.

Nonsense.

Lived there for 10 years in a town literally OVERRUN with undocumented aliens. Never had need of a gun.
Not once.

Need is irrelevant. People have guns because they choose to have guns.

You guys have turned America into a nation loaded with guns because all you do is live in abject terror of everyone and everything.
Why is that?

That is incorrect. We turned America into a nation loaded with guns, because guns are good to have.

Lie? You think I'm lying that your car needs registration in the US and you have to take an exam to get your license?

I prefer to say that you are completely incorrect in all respects.

The term "lie" implies an intent to deceive, and I think that you are merely mistaken.

I'M NOT THE ONE here buying a gun to defend myself because I'm terrified all the time.

That isn't the reason why anyone else buys guns either.

 

[Open Bolt]

1) When politicians accept donations from the NRA, that isn't a 1st Amendment right. That is bribery.

Wrong. The First Amendment protects such donations.

2) "Shall not be infringed" was written at a much different time. We are living in a different world now, with totally different kinds of weapons.

Freedom is just as important today as it was in the past.

It is not infringing on anyone's right to ban assault rifles.

Yes it is. It is a crime against the American people.

And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct?

Does the purpose of a car make people killed in car accidents any less dead?

As for the drunk driving statistics, nobody has figured out a way to stop people from driving drunk yet. Ditto for speeding and irresponsible driving.

The only way that anyone can come up with to prevent school massacres is to defend schools with guns.

We do have a way to slow down mass shootings, though. Refer to my OP.

Your OP did not propose any way to slow down mass shootings. All you did was propose violating people's civil liberties for no reason.

1) Donations from the organizations you cited don't lead to mass shootings. So, they are OK.

Donations from the NRA do not lead to mass shootings either.

And if you were to succeed in your efforts to abolish the First Amendment, donations from leftist groups would be outlawed as well.

2) The way to get around "shall not be infringed" is make a law banning assault rifles.
See how easy that is.

Wrong. "Violating our civil liberties" does not "get around those civil liberties."

It merely makes you a criminal.

What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people?

Hunting guns are for killing game animals.

Defensive guns are for protection and saving lives.

Sport guns are for competition.

Gun collections are there merely to be possessed and enjoyed.

There is nothing I need to demonstrate.

It's more that there is nothing that you can demonstrate, since you are completely wrong on all counts.

People have taken the 2nd Amendment and twisted it to mean what they want it to mean.

Only you and the left have done such a thing. And shame on you for doing it.

I believe the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment was for people to form militias to protect themselves during colonial times, from the British, hostile Native Americans, etc. In those days they didn't really have a standing Army, so the citizens had to fend for themselves.

Wrong. They could have had a standing army had they wanted to have one.

So, they needed to be armed and able to form militias at all times. That was what the 2nd Amendment was created for.

Wrong. It was created to prevent you from disarming people.

I heard that at one time, not so long ago, there was a ban on assault rifles.

You heard wrong. It was not a ban on assault rifles, but rather a ban on harmless hunting rifles like the AR-15.

But, somehow the ban was lifted. That was a big mistake.

No it wasn't. Ending a crime against the American people is never a mistake.

 

[Cellblock2429]

It's called PROBABILITIES.




-sigh- Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars? AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.



It's called probabilities. I'm so surprised that none of you guys know anything about it. Well, actually, not really surprised.



LOL. There's no developed first would country with the levels of shootings and gun homicides of the USA.

We are miles above anyone else.

You guys just have NO CLUE.

/———/ “sigh- Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars? AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.”

sigh- owning a gun is a RIGHT, owning a car is a privilege if you want to drive it on public roads.

 

[Vagabond63]

Actually, several times I made a post showing the government failures backed by sourced evidence.

Flopping Aces

The signs were there. They’re almost always there. No one was paying attention.​

Posted by DrJohn on 27 May, 2022

Excerpt:

Tucson. Parkland. Buffalo. Uvalde.

Jared Loughner. Nikolas Cruz. Peyton Gendron. Salvador Ramos.

Their stories are all the same.

They committed terrible crimes exacting unimaginable pain and loss. All were preventable had someone taken their job seriously.

Jared Loughner, who shot Gabby Giffords, was well known to Tucson police. He made numerous death threats. The cops were called to his house numerous times. He purchased a Glock after he made several death threats. They let him keep the weapon.

Nikolas Cruz posted “Im going to be a professional school shooter” on YouTube. The FBI was tipped off.



LINK

In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.

In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.

 

[2aguy]

In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.

In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.

And yet those processes didn’t stop the last two mass public shooters in Britain, at Cumbria and Plymouth……

Mass public shooters plan their attacks….they also are planning to murder people so getting guns isn’t an Issue when you have guns available….as you keep telling us ………since gun clubs in Britain exist and farms around Britain also have guns…….

Now, with more guns entering Britain illegally, gun access for low life’s is increasing…..


Our system works fine…where it fails is where it failed in Britain…..the government didn’t do its job…….the mass public shooters that we have could have been kept from legally getting their guns if the local schools and police had simply had the killers arrested or committed…they didn’t.

Meanwhile, over 330 million Americans, 600 million guns in private hands, over 20 million people who can legally carry guns in public and about 53 million Americans with some sort of mental health issues….

How many used guns to commit mass public shootings in 2021?

6

Total number of deaths?

43

Deer kill 200 people a year

Lawn mowers kill 90-100

ladders kill 300 people a year….

You do not deny millions of people a Constituionally protected Right based on numbers like that……

The numbersyou always ignore?

The 1.1 million Americans who use their legal guns to save lives each year…..according to the Centers for Disease Control…1.5 million according to the Department of Justice…..or 2.5 million according to the most accurate work on the subject by Gary Kleck….


The 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered by their governments in Europe….…..after they surrendered their guns……

More people murdered in 6 years than by all those murdered by American criminals with guns……ever………and the majority of people murdered in America are criminals murdered by other criminals……

The 15 million murdered in Europe? Innocent human beings……

 

[Cellblock2429]

In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.

In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.

/----/ We have a 2nd amendment because men in red coats tried to control our lives and property. There is a reason, the King wanted to disarm his subjects.

 

[Blues Man]

Almost everything i carry in my pockets on a daily basis is illegal in the UK.

This little utility knife is illegal because it has a locking blade.

This handy little multitool that I use several times a day is illegal to carry in the UK because it has not one but 3 locking blades (THE HORROR)

Brits enjoy being treated like children

 

[Vagabond63]

Almost everything i carry in my pockets on a daily basis is illegal in the UK.

This little utility knife is illegal because it has a locking blade.

View attachment 660378

This handy little multitool that I use several times a day is illegal to carry in the UK because it has not one but 3 locking blades (THE HORROR)

View attachment 660380
Brits enjoy being treated like children

I have both of those, and a Swiss Army knife. They are all easy to buy and none of them are "illegal".

 

[Vagabond63]

And yet those processes didn’t stop the last two mass public shooters in Britain, at Cumbria and Plymouth……

Mass public shooters plan their attacks….they also are planning to murder people so getting guns isn’t an Issue when you have guns available….as you keep telling us ………since gun clubs in Britain exist and farms around Britain also have guns…….

Now, with more guns entering Britain illegally, gun access for low life’s is increasing…..


Our system works fine…where it fails is where it failed in Britain…..the government didn’t do its job…….the mass public shooters that we have could have been kept from legally getting their guns if the local schools and police had simply had the killers arrested or committed…they didn’t.

Meanwhile, over 330 million Americans, 600 million guns in private hands, over 20 million people who can legally carry guns in public and about 53 million Americans with some sort of mental health issues….

How many used guns to commit mass public shootings in 2021?

6

Total number of deaths?

43

Deer kill 200 people a year

Lawn mowers kill 90-100

ladders kill 300 people a year….

You do not deny millions of people a Constituionally protected Right based on numbers like that……

The numbersyou always ignore?

The 1.1 million Americans who use their legal guns to save lives each year…..according to the Centers for Disease Control…1.5 million according to the Department of Justice…..or 2.5 million according to the most accurate work on the subject by Gary Kleck….


The 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered by their governments in Europe….…..after they surrendered their guns……

More people murdered in 6 years than by all those murdered by American criminals with guns……ever………and the majority of people murdered in America are criminals murdered by other criminals……

The 15 million murdered in Europe? Innocent human beings……

Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.

 

[Open Bolt]

Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras.

I do not share the opinion that facts and reality are BS.

Did you ever say whether or not people in the UK were allowed to have a lever-action .30-30?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.

/——/ Please post proof they are BS statistics. You won’t because you can’t.

 

[Blues Man]

I have both of those, and a Swiss Army knife. They are all easy to buy and none of them are "illegal".

All my pocket knives and the muti-tool I carry on my belt have locking blades

any knife of any size with a locking blade is illegal in your country

You don;t even know your own laws and you want to tell other people what laws they should have to live under

 

[2aguy]

Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.

Yes...the 18 studies say you are wrong, so you ignore them...got it.

The Centers for Disease Control, the Department of Justice....they do research all the time...but when it comes to showing that guns are used to save lives, all of a sudden they don't count.....got it.

Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.

Yeah....you dismiss them, all 18 studies....because they disagree with you...they disagree with this guy too...but he isn't you, and he takes research seriously...

For example....the most thorough look at gun self defense.....



What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear- cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something

I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. Maybe Franklin Zimring and Philip Cook can help me find fault with the Kleck and Gertz research, but for now, I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research.

Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies.
------
Nonetheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it.
There is no one part of the early section of their paper with which I disagree.
------
The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the au- thors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologi- cally. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=6854&context=jclc

Who is Marvin Wolfgang...

In 1964, he published The Measurement of Delinquency, which was the first study of the true impact of crime on society. Three years later, he completed The Subculture of Violence: Towards an Integrated Theory in Criminology, which focused on high rates of violence among blacks and the influence of a black subculture.

Wolfgang wrote over 30 books and 150 articles throughout his life. His most famous work, Delinquency in a Birth Cohort, was published in 1972.[4][5] This book marked the beginning of large-scale studies of crime and delinquency. It was a study of over 10,000 boys born in Philadelphia in 1945.
----------

Wolfgang won many awards, including the Hans Von Hentig Award from the World Society of Victimology in 1988, the Edwin Sutherland Award from the American Society of Criminology in 1989, the Beccaria Gold Medal from the German, Austrian, and Swiss Society of Criminology in 1997; in 1993, the Wolfgang Criminology Award was established in his name.

Marvin Wolfgang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Open Bolt]

...and he's off to the races again, regurgitating these BS opinion poll estimates, when in reality, no-one knows how many times these events occur, and for that matter how many of these alleged events the "defender" was actually acting illegally.

Whatever the number of defensive gun uses actually is, it is clearly a substantial number.