Two Questions re: Ukraine

[j-mac]

I used to peruse DebatePolitics.com that is completely infested with neo-leftists including the entire mod team. Mac1958 is just like every other neo-leftist on these forums. They all come from the same cookie cutter and receive their talking points from the same propaganda machine.

I was on DP for years…That place got extremely toxic, so I left and came here…

 

[Nostra]

He was a weak leader, but I'd rather have a weak leader than one who is compromised to the enemy and a traitor.

Prove it.

 

[j-mac]

He was a weak leader, but I'd rather have a weak leader than one who is compromised to the enemy and a traitor.

If you truly believe that, then you need some reprogramming.

 

[Nostra]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

Hey Mac1958 what is your plan to end the war?

Tic…..toc……

 

[AZrailwhale]

OK.

There is no war in Ukraine. None has been declared.

Getting Putin out of Ukraine would not saves lives. Are you now satisfied with my answers?

That's like saying there was no war in Korea in the fifties, or in Vietnam in the sixties, or in the British North American colonies between 1775 and 1783. Those three were all real wars without declarations on either side.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Trump can end this war if he just follows through on the threat HE ALREADY MADE to impose/add to crippling sanctions.

Russia and Putin are on the edge right now. His Generals and his plutocrats are flying out of windows faster than shit through a goose. Ukraine has destroyed 20% of his desperately-needed oil production capacity. Gas lines are getting longer and inflation is at 10%. His "army" is running on fumes and sacrificing North Koreans. Russian banks are imposing withdrawal limits and teetering as we speak.

Trump knows it. Putin knows it. All Trump has to do is pull the ******* trigger. Instead, he is choosing to prolong this.

Man up and end it, Trump.

You've got quite an imagination. I wonder where Zelensky is if Putin's on the edge? In the gutter, maybe, with all of his effeminate European friends.

 

[Monoculturalist]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

1. Officially, Russia. They invaded. In practical terms, the West made moves that Russia warned would lead to war.

2. I don't think Ukraine is his primary concern. The border here is. Why he hasn't approached China about their support of Russia is probably because American corporations unfortunately sold out to China and became dependent on them. So, both parties here (and the West in general) don't want to push China away from Russia, because they're afraid of the effect it would have on their corporations with property there.

 

[Dorian Mode]

Hey Mac1958 what is your plan to end the war?

Tic…..toc……

I think he said he wants to just continue with sanctions. That's what the left wants to do, continue and drag this out as long as possible hoping it becomes another forever war/money pit to waste trillions of US taxpayer money on.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You asked me a question.

I answered you with a question.

I assumed you were intelligent enough to make the obvious connection.

Care to try again?

"What justification did the United States have to attempt to overthrow Castro?

What justification did the US have to blockade the country of Cuba?"


I totally understand why you wouldn't want to make the obvious connection. Kinda undermines your position. Be that as it may, everyone else has made it without your assistance.

The US had no legal right to overthrow Castro. The US did have a right to stop Russian ships from carrying OFFENSIVE weapons into Cuba. Despite the inflammatory rhetoric over the years, the USA never blockaded Cuba. Ship of every nation were allowed to make port in Cuba and Soviet ships would have been after inspection to insure they weren't carrying offensive missiles. The USA had no problems with the USSR placing SAMs in Cube because they were DEFENSIVE weapons.

 

[Dorian Mode]

I was on DP for years…That place got extremely toxic, so I left and came here…

ditto

 

[AZrailwhale]

Do you want to talk about Guantanamo Bay for a while?

Did you know that Cuba strenuously objects to the US occupation of Guantanamo Bay?

They claim the lease treaty was obtain by force and coercion. They don't cash the lease payments we send them.

Tough, it is a legal lease signed by the previous government. Just like Macao and Hong Kong were legal leases signed by the official Chinese government before the communists' tool over.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Neville Chamberlain is a great example of the democrats view of evil. Look at Bidens Iran policies

Chamberlain was desperately playing for time to allow the UK to build arms to defend itself. In pursuit of that Chamberlain threw Czechoslovakia to the German wolves. Not Great Britain's finest hour, but GB had no obligation to defend Czechoslovakia.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Pressure:

"Look, Russia is a very big power, and they're not [Ukraine]," said the President

Trump said Putin's observations were "profound,".

Trump referenced Russia's forces as "They're great soldiers"

"We'll speak to you very soon and probably see you again very soon." Trump said
"Next time in Moscow," a smiling Putin responded in English.

View attachment 1150879

Historically Russians WERE great soldiers at one time. They endured great hardship and fought on against odds.

 

[The Duke]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

1. Obama by being weak and not doing anything about it when Russia went into Ukraine.
2. Here in America, we have our own problems, and a lot of it is government corruption by Democrats.

 

[Stann]

It doesn’t matter if millions die, as long as Mac15+15 can say Trump didn’t bring peace.

Thats how sick these chowderheads are.

Peace ? At what cost. Look what trump didn't o the Afghan peoPle. Is he going tos ll out the Ukrainians too . K st likely they will be giv n the shaft too.

 

[AZrailwhale]

It is worth mentioning that "the West" promised Putin on several occasions that NATO would not expand to the east, and "we" blew that promise to smithereens (whatever a smithereen is). So the question becomes, knowing that Russia is being led by a megalomaniac former KGB Colonel, was our provocation in this regard sufficient to provoke Putin into his current adventure? Do we blame the bear or the fool who provoked it into attacking? You be the judge.

Second, the merits of the conflict are somewhat murky. Remember that Ukraine (like Palestine) was a made-up country (by Nikita Khruschev), created to add a vote in the U.N. for the old Soviet Union. Historically, it was mostly a part of Russia before NK executed his gambit. Second, parts of Ukraine are mainly ethnic Russian, and the actual people who live there would be content to be brought back into the Russian Federation.

Since we in the West like "democracy" maybe it is OK to let Russia take a few bites out of Ukraine (with popular local support), if what remains is a viable country.

That statement was in relation to EAST GERMANY, and at the time the nations between East Germany and the USSR were all members of the Warsaw Pact and under control from Moscow. After the fall of the Iron Curtain, the newly freed nations wanted protection from being reconquered by Russia and freely chose to join NATO to provide a joint defense against Russian aggression. Subsequent events in Ukraine and Georgia have proven that move to have been prescient. Russia has invaded both nations to seize territory desired by Russia against the will of the Georgian and Ukranian governments.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Probably. We (Allies) embargoed all kinds of material they needed to continue their conquests. Oil was the final straw

America squeezed Japan by blocking its trade​

Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau and Interior Secretary Harold Ickes vigorously endorsed this policy. Roosevelt hoped that such sanctions would goad the Japanese into making a rash mistake by launching a war against the United States, which would bring in Japan’s ally Germany.

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic attempts to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan.

George Morgenstern, in the book Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, noted Americas’ actions: “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.”

Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.”

Finally, economic warfare escalated on July 26, 1941, when Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.” The British and the Dutch followed suit, and embargoed exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

How U.S. economic warfare provoked Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor - Students For Liberty

Prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were putting Japan in an untenable position through economic warfare.

studentsforliberty.org

The USA put Japan in the position of being embarrassed and having to stop its unprovoked invasion of China and losing face, or having its economy gutted. Any rational government would have pulled out of China and minimized its losses. Despite knowing the difference between the economies of Japan and the USA, the Japanese government decided that face was more important than national survival. Any other nation would have destroyed Japan like the Soviets did to the governments of Eastern Europe, the Baltics and the Balkans. Making Japan an economic dependent of the USA not producing anything except food.

 

[AZrailwhale]

What would make me feel better, is if we could stop pissing away ukrainian lives for nothing.

The Ukranians don't feel defending their nation against Russian invasion and conquest isn't "nothing", but everything. The Confederacy fought for years to defend itself, China fought foe over a decade to defend itself against Japanese conquest, Indochina fought for nearly a decade against French reconquest, South Vietnam fought for a decade to prevent North Vietnamese conquest, shall I go on?

 

[AZrailwhale]

1. Obama by being weak and not doing anything about it when Russia went into Ukraine.
2. Here in America, we have our own problems, and a lot of it is government corruption by Democrats.

If Obama had stood up against Putin when he invaded and conquered Crimea, Putin would have backed down.

 

[Stann]

Specifically, what does this mean?
Ukraine only has so many men.

If Russia can import troops from North Korea we should be countering that Plus give them weapons capable of striking Moscow and St. Petersburg. That would bring this war to a close. The coward Putin would cave if he knew and understood there is no limit to our resolve to save the Ukraine from Russian domination again