CDZ Two options...the European model of self defense, and the American model of Self defensse.

[ESay]

View attachment 531222

To have more full view, you should compare robberies, knife attacks, aggravated assaults etc.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Now you're back to your silly "how do you make a crook not be a crook" rant. Using your logic, all laws are a waste of time. If dealer background checks are easy, then what additional hard steps have you seen proposed? Gun nuts claim lots of stuff, but you are the only ones whining about universal registration.

One thing you are overlooking is that you can't enforce gun registration and background check laws against felons. Since attempting to acquire a firearm, or being in possession of a firearm for them is already a crime, they can't be forced to incriminate themselves. Any court would throw out a charge.

 

[BULLDOG]

One thing you are overlooking is that you can't enforce gun registration and background check laws against felons. Since attempting to acquire a firearm, or being in possession of a firearm for them is already a crime, they can't be forced to incriminate themselves. Any court would throw out a charge.

But the seller is the one being protected with a background check. A simple accusation that the seller knew the purchaser was not allowed to possess a gun would put him in the same position as the one who illegally supplied a gun to a crook. Almost half (43%) of illegal guns in the hands of crooks come from individual sellers. You can call some of them "straw purchasers" if you want to, but there is virtually no easily identifiable difference between the actions of a straw purchaser, and an individual seller.

 

[2aguy]

One thing you are overlooking is that you can't enforce gun registration and background check laws against felons. Since attempting to acquire a firearm, or being in possession of a firearm for them is already a crime, they can't be forced to incriminate themselves. Any court would throw out a charge.

It was already addressed in Haynes v United States.....felons cannot be prosecuted for not registering illegal guns...it violates their 5th Amendment Right against self incrimination....

 

[2aguy]

But the seller is the one being protected with a background check. A simple accusation that the seller knew the purchaser was not allowed to possess a gun would put him in the same position as the one who illegally supplied a gun to a crook. Almost half (43%) of illegal guns in the hands of crooks come from individual sellers. You can call some of them "straw purchasers" if you want to, but there is virtually no easily identifiable difference between the actions of a straw purchaser, and an individual seller.

Wrong....you think you are clever, you are not. Straw buyers, and FFLs who are supplying criminals are criminal activities, not mistakes.

Your game with the term "individual" seller gets tiring.....straw buyers are individual sellers...they are called straw buyers because they knowingly use their ability to pass any background check to supply guns to criminals...as do individuals with FFLs who supply guns to criminals....both are "individuals," who know they are breaking the law.

They engage in criminal conspiracies.........you are implying they are just John Q. Citizen selling a private gun.........that is why you are dishonest.

These guys are not simple citizens selling a handgun ....they are "individual sellers...." the term you are using to hide your agenda...

One active-duty Navy sailor and one former sailor have been charged with conspiring to traffic “dozens” of guns after they purchased firearms in Georgia that were later used in New Jersey-area violent crimes.

Elijah Isaiah Boykin, the active-duty sailor, and Elijah Keashon Barnes, who was discharged in June of 2020 for repeatedly violating military law, were indicted Tuesday, according to the Justice Department.

“Federal law prohibits the making of false statements and misrepresentations to licensed firearms dealers,” acting U.S. Attorney Kurt R. Erskine said in a Tuesday statement. “Individuals who use deception to buy guns intended for other people will face severe consequences, including imprisonment and the loss of valuable civil rights.”

Navy Sailors Charged In NJ Gun Trafficking Case

bearingarms.com

Background checks were done for all of these weapons.........since they were able to pass the federally mandated background check.......they lied on their forms....which is already a crime.....

You want gun registration..........you think universal background checks gets you there.....

 

[BULLDOG]

Wrong....you think you are clever, you are not. Straw buyers, and FFLs who are supplying criminals are criminal activities, not mistakes.

Your game with the term "individual" seller gets tiring.....straw buyers are individual sellers...they are called straw buyers because they knowingly use their ability to pass any background check to supply guns to criminals...as do individuals with FFLs who supply guns to criminals....both are "individuals," who know they are breaking the law.

They engage in criminal conspiracies.........you are implying they are just John Q. Citizen selling a private gun.........that is why you are dishonest.

These guys are not simple citizens selling a handgun ....they are "individual sellers...." the term you are using to hide your agenda...

One active-duty Navy sailor and one former sailor have been charged with conspiring to traffic “dozens” of guns after they purchased firearms in Georgia that were later used in New Jersey-area violent crimes.

Elijah Isaiah Boykin, the active-duty sailor, and Elijah Keashon Barnes, who was discharged in June of 2020 for repeatedly violating military law, were indicted Tuesday, according to the Justice Department.

“Federal law prohibits the making of false statements and misrepresentations to licensed firearms dealers,” acting U.S. Attorney Kurt R. Erskine said in a Tuesday statement. “Individuals who use deception to buy guns intended for other people will face severe consequences, including imprisonment and the loss of valuable civil rights.”

Navy Sailors Charged In NJ Gun Trafficking Case

bearingarms.com

Background checks were done for all of these weapons.........since they were able to pass the federally mandated background check.......they lied on their forms....which is already a crime.....

You want gun registration..........you think universal background checks gets you there.....

That is exactly my point. Your so called straw buyers have broken no laws when they pass a background check and buy a gun. At that point, they are just another individual gun owner. They are still exactly the same when they sell, or otherwise transfer that gun to someone not allowed to have one. You can't even call them a criminal until after it is proven in court that they knew they weren't allowed to sell to that particular person. How are you going to do that if the seller has no obligation to know, find out, or even care what the purchaser's status is.? Your goofy claim that no criminal would ever lie about where they got a gun to protect a friend or family is just insane. Your goal is to make sure crooks can easily get all the guns they want. You might not have intended for that to happen, but it does.

 

[Blues Man]

Of course people would be able to ignore the law. Every law we have is ignored by somebody. Nobody said it would be 100% effective, but it would give individual sellers the ability to find out if they are selling a gun to someone not allowed to possess one. I assume you are an ethical gun owner. Wouldn't you want to know if you were selling to a crook? When someone was caught selling to a crook, it would remove the "I didn't know" excuse.

They already have that ability.

There are FFL license holders in just about every county of every state and they will run BG checks for anyone who wants them.

Personally I don't buy or sell guns in private but even the highest estimates of how many gun sales do not involve BG checks is something less than 20%

I don't think another law will change that stat.

It's no different from the sales tax. No one who sells anything be it a boomerang or a bicycle in a classified ad sale collects sales tax for the state and it is impossible to enforce that even if it is the law.

 

[2aguy]

That is exactly my point. Your so called straw buyers have broken no laws when they pass a background check and buy a gun. At that point, they are just another individual gun owner. They are still exactly the same when they sell, or otherwise transfer that gun to someone not allowed to have one. You can't even call them a criminal until after it is proven in court that they knew they weren't allowed to sell to that particular person. How are you going to do that if the seller has no obligation to know, find out, or even care what the purchaser's status is.? Your goofy claim that no criminal would ever lie about where they got a gun to protect a friend or family is just insane. Your goal is to make sure crooks can easily get all the guns they want. You might not have intended for that to happen, but it does.

wrong…..they lied on the background form. You do not know what you are talking about.

You just showed that background checks are meaningless…thanks.

 

[BULLDOG]

wrong…..they lied on the background form. You do not know what you are talking about.

You just showed that background checks are meaningless…thanks.

No. It's impossible to prove someone intended to transfer a gun to an illegal possessor when they haven't transfered the gun, dumbass. No laws are broken until they actually make the exchange. Come on, you aren't that stupid, are you?

 

[2aguy]

No. It's impossible to prove someone intended to transfer a gun to an illegal possessor when they haven't transfered the gun, dumbass. No laws are broken until they actually make the exchange. Come on, you aren't that stupid, are you?

Wow….you keep showing why background checks are dumb.

 

[justinacolmena]

Wow….you keep showing why background checks are dumb.

Dumb as they come, but they only get worse and worse as the unemployment lines get longer and longer, and more and more people realize that all those international, military, federal, state, local, and city cops are no longer on the right side of the law.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That is exactly my point. Your so called straw buyers have broken no laws when they pass a background check and buy a gun. At that point, they are just another individual gun owner. They are still exactly the same when they sell, or otherwise transfer that gun to someone not allowed to have one. You can't even call them a criminal until after it is proven in court that they knew they weren't allowed to sell to that particular person. How are you going to do that if the seller has no obligation to know, find out, or even care what the purchaser's status is.? Your goofy claim that no criminal would ever lie about where they got a gun to protect a friend or family is just insane.

And thus, the futility of background checks.
Well done.

 

[2aguy]

Young Teacher, murdered in British park.....

Family of teacher killed in park say they are âbrokenâ

The Metropolitan Police named Sabina Nessa, 28, from Kidbrooke, after her body was found near a community centre

www.standard.co.uk

 

[M14 Shooter]

Young Teacher, murdered in British park.....

Family of teacher killed in park say they are âbrokenâ

The Metropolitan Police named Sabina Nessa, 28, from Kidbrooke, after her body was found near a community centre

www.standard.co.uk

Why didn't she shoot her attacker?

 

[2aguy]

Why didn't she shoot her attacker?

They only let criminals have guns in Britain...I think.....they don't even let the police have guns...just the criminals...

 

[Ivan88]

A few aspects of this thread being neglected:
1. The word civilization came from swordville, meaning a place were life was protected by swords;
2. The European and American styles are both Communist systems;
3. England used to honor all English men's Right to not only self defense, but defense of the realm;
4. In Iraq, before the stupid Americans destroyed that country and millions of the people who lived there, a Man could own any weapon He could afford as long as He didn't use it against the system;
5. Animals have rights to protect themselves, claws, horns, fangs and such;
6. Americans have a "right" to bear arms, and the cops have a right to shoot them down;
7. Americans do not have access to the national armories for defensive purposes as Americans had during the Articles of Confederation;
8. Since Lincoln, Americans have had ever growing limitations on their Right to Self Defense & defense of others especially since F.D. Roosevelt and most every regime since then.
And One More: Forced integration and a Communist school system.

 

[BULLDOG]

A few aspects of this thread being neglected:
1. The word civilization came from swordville, meaning a place were life was protected by swords;
2. The European and American styles are both Communist systems;
3. England used to honor all English men's Right to not only self defense, but defense of the realm;
4. In Iraq, before the stupid Americans destroyed that country and millions of the people who lived there, a Man could own any weapon He could afford as long as He didn't use it against the system;
5. Animals have rights to protect themselves, claws, horns, fangs and such;
6. Americans have a "right" to bear arms, and the cops have a right to shoot them down;
7. Americans do not have access to the national armories for defensive purposes as Americans had during the Articles of Confederation;
8. Since Lincoln, Americans have had ever growing limitations on their Right to Self Defense & defense of others especially since F.D. Roosevelt and most every regime since then.
And One More: Forced integration and a Communist school system.

Are you high right now?

 

[Ivan88]

Are you high right now?

Bull dog can't address the real issue, so vomited up a silly question.

Did you know that Mao Zedung was more adherent to the idea of the 2nd Amendment than perhaps all Americans? He took China and kept it, and His motto was "Power Comes out of the barrel of a gun."

All Americans can do is beg.
The Men of Massachusetts regulated their crooked public servants, but did not avail themselves of the State Armory that belonged to them. So the rich dudes that were using the courts to steal peoples' farms hired a private army to put down the Men of Massachusetts. The Constitution was passed to prevent American Men from regulating their Public Servants.

 

[BULLDOG]

Bull dog can't address the real issue, so vomited up a silly question.

Did you know that Mao Zedung was more adherent to the idea of the 2nd Amendment than perhaps all Americans? He took China and kept it, and His motto was "Power Comes out of the barrel of a gun."

All Americans can do is beg.
The Men of Massachusetts regulated their crooked public servants, but did not avail themselves of the State Armory that belonged to them. So the rich dudes that were using the courts to steal peoples' farms hired a private army to put down the Men of Massachusetts. The Constitution was passed to prevent American Men from regulating their Public Servants.

The constitution was passed to prevent American Men from regulating their Public Servants? You know that is batshit crazy, don't you?

 

[Plow Boy]

My model of self defense, the .45 Automatic.
It has been proven in 2 world wars, and on the streets of America.
It will bring physical attacks to a screeching halt.