Two Nations: One State?

[docmauser1]

What was the ratio of Jew to Arab in Palestine of 1891, Hossie Boy?

And then arabs droppped in on jewish development, didn't they?

 

[docmauser1]

That all changed when Zionists showed up at the turn of the last century.

Indeed, in memorable words of the Anglo-American Committee, 1946, "One witnesses in Palestine not merely the impact of European culture upon the East, but also the impact of Western science and Western technology upon a semi-feudal civilization."
And then arabs decided to do some redistribution, didin't they?

 

[docmauser1]

That national vote includes refugees. How far will that go without RoR? Like I say, there will not be a peace agreement.

See, folks, all that one-state babble is just another way to try and destroy Israel. Arabs amending their current situation at the jewish expence. Why do palistanians, for example, hate the saudis? Because the latter are rich and unwilling to share with them. Same old redistributionism.

 

[WillReadmore]

Haim Bresheeth speaks about the One State Solution in Palestine/Israel

Yes - thanks for these posts.

It hit me that the reason we fought hard against Palestinian recognition as a state by the UN is that statehood for Palestine makes a single state solution more difficult. The reasons given publicly seem nonsensical at best if the intent is a two state solution.

And, that keeps me wondering what John Kerry and our DoS is actually doing today. What is it that we are trying to negotiate with them?

I'm a little shocked to hear this idea of a mass ethnic cleansing for West Bank by Israel. It seems their step wise progress has been reasonably effective so far, and it seems Israel is able to carry it out with surprisingly little international outrage.

 

[georgephillip]

There are currently about ten million Jews and Arabs living between the River and the sea with roughly equal numbers of voting age nationals. Why would you believe that free elections would result in an Islamic dominated system?"

And where did "free elections" result in not an islamic-dominated system? Besides, what's wrong with a state of palistan, "so-muchly" "recognised"? Are we admitting, indirectly though, that palistan is a failure unable to cater to its own that it would rather dump them on others?

Equal numbers of Jews and Arabs between the River and the sea.
Are Jews afraid to cast a ballot instead of a bullet?

 

[Kondor3]

Yes. Jews are afraid to be out-voted. Logic and common sense, that.

They will not risk losing their 'newly' -recaptured spiritual and ancestral Homeland, after waiting 1900 years to do it.

Can't say as I blame 'em, either.

The West is giving the Jews a free pass to retake their old homeland as a Mea Culpa (penance) for the Holocaust, and the Jews are some 65 years into a sequence designed to do just that, and they have made so much progress during that time - without slaughtering the previous land-owners - that they've nearly completed their multi-decade, multi-generational mission.

The Jews hold the upper hand and have no need nor interest in weakening their poker hand now that the last card is in-play. You don't 'fold' at the poker table when you've got a straight flush - even a low-end one; not with the whole pot at-stake in the final round; winner-take-all; with the Opposition only showing a pair of twos.

 

[NathSlaterKeele]

That national vote includes refugees.

How far will that go without RoR?

Like I say, there will not be a peace agreement.

I agree. RoR, Division of Jerusalem, returning to Palestinians the West Bank land stolen from them, the ending of the financial benefit of continued theft of property, along with the several political problems of the settlements, the hate built by decades of occupation and its opposition - I really doubt all that can be solved.

My guess is that at some point, West Bank will be folded into Israel, with the Israeli government becoming representative of all citizens within those borders.

Many Palestinian Arabs living in occupied regions of the West Bank at this very moment dont have the right to vote. Hypothetically speaking if the entire west bank was "folded" into Israel do you think there will be genuine representative for the people of Palestine? I doubt it.

There are already over 2million Palestinian refugees from the west bank alone. You're right there is no solution and definitely not a 2 or 1 state solution.

 

[NathSlaterKeele]

They will not risk losing their 'newly' -recaptured spiritual and ancestral Homeland, after waiting 1900 years to do it.

Newly re-captured homeland? I can guarantee that that all main-stream religions have claim to that land, what makes Jews so special?

The West is giving the Jews a free pass to retake their old homeland as a Mea Culpa (penance) for the Holocaust, and the Jews are some 65 years into a sequence designed to do just that, and they have made so much progress during that time - without slaughtering the previous land-owners - that they've nearly completed their multi-decade, multi-generational mission.

Without slaughter? I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from but there is a genocide of the Palestinian people if you want to believe it or not.

The Jews hold the upper hand and have no need nor interest in weakening their poker hand now that the last card is in-play. You don't 'fold' at the poker table when you've got a straight flush - even a low-end one; not with the whole pot at-stake in the final round; winner-take-all; with the Opposition only showing a pair of twos.

The amount of people that have died, lost their homes and been displaced for the last 65 years and the fact you refer to this highly delicate and complicated political/economic/cultural problem to a poker game really shows you have very little grasp on this topic.

 

[Kondor3]

They will not risk losing their 'newly' -recaptured spiritual and ancestral Homeland, after waiting 1900 years to do it.

Newly re-captured homeland? I can guarantee that that all main-stream religions have claim to that land, what makes Jews so special?

Yes.

Newly re-captured homeland.

What makes the Jews so special?

Because, of the three mainstream 'Religions of the Book' - Judaism, Christianity and Islam... Judaism ruled the land the longest, and has the oldest claims to the land, and has been the most brutalized in recent centuries, and is the neediest, with respect to having a place to hang their hat, as a People, whereas their main antagonists can go to Jordan or Lebanon, to live alongside more of their ethnic brethren and co-religionists. It was theirs first, and longest, and they need it the most.

And that discounts the idea that The West is allowing the Jews to do recapture their homeland as a Mea Culpa (penance) for the Holocaust, and the Arabs simply got in the way, while that Penance is being fulfilled.

And that discounts the most important rationale of all, regarding what entitles the Jews to that land: Victory on the Battlefield.

Want it back? Then you must come and take it. If you can. See how that works? It cuts right through all the bullshit.

"...Without slaughter? I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from but there is a genocide of the Palestinian people if you want to believe it or not..."

Wake me up, when the Jews have shipped millions of Palestinians to Extermination Centers, and gassed them, and cremated and buried the bodies, and then we'll be in a position to talk about 'genocide'.

Squeezing people off their land, or expelling them, is not 'genocide'.

At worst, it is 'ethnic cleansing', of the kind in which the objects of the exercise are still alive at the end of the sequence.

Expulsion is not Extermination.

"...The amount of people that have died, lost their homes and been displaced for the last 65 years and the fact you refer to this highly delicate and complicated political/economic/cultural problem to a poker game really shows you have very little grasp on this topic."

Oh, I understand, it's just that I'm on Israel's side in this matter, and have slowly but surely developed a more pragmatic perspective on the subject.

And I've spent endless hours going round and round and round and round and round and round and round with legal and ethical arguments with folks who side with the Palestinians, and finally developed a penchant for cutting through the bullshit and the Gordian Knot, and utilizing powerful and simplistic and easy-to-grasp metaphors for The Struggle itself, on the macro level, and the particulars as these present and manifest, on the micro level.

Do not mistake a simplistic, easy-to-grasp summarization style for a simplistic underlying understanding, eh? I claim no particular expertise nor superior knowledge, but, for an amateur non-stakeholder, I do OK, with matters both gross and subtle, in this narrow context.

Oh, and, for someone who had all of two whole posts under his-or-her belt, at the time of your writing here, you certainly and quickly moved to vigorously criticize one of your colleagues who happens to hold an opinion that runs contrary to your own, and who voiced that opinion in a manner that struck you as making light of the subject.

For some reason, the phrases 'sock puppet' and 'ghost of a previously-banned poster' come to mind...

 

[georgephillip]

Yes. Jews are afraid to be out-voted. Logic and common sense, that.

They will not risk losing their 'newly' -recaptured spiritual and ancestral Homeland, after waiting 1900 years to do it.

Can't say as I blame 'em, either.

The West is giving the Jews a free pass to retake their old homeland as a Mea Culpa (penance) for the Holocaust, and the Jews are some 65 years into a sequence designed to do just that, and they have made so much progress during that time - without slaughtering the previous land-owners - that they've nearly completed their multi-decade, multi-generational mission.

The Jews hold the upper hand and have no need nor interest in weakening their poker hand now that the last card is in-play. You don't 'fold' at the poker table when you've got a straight flush - even a low-end one; not with the whole pot at-stake in the final round; winner-take-all; with the Opposition only showing a pair of twos.

Jews are afraid of democracy and in favor of apartheid, is that what your spam is intended to convey? Arabs have been the majority in historical Palestine for the last 1000 years and your amateur night hasbara isn't changing any minds about Israel's ham-handed ethnic cleansing.

 

[NathSlaterKeele]

Yes.

Newly re-captured homeland.

What makes the Jews so special?

Because, of the three mainstream 'Religions of the Book' - Judaism, Christianity and Islam... Judaism ruled the land the longest, and has the oldest claims to the land, and has been the most brutalized in recent centuries, and is the neediest, with respect to having a place to hang their hat, as a People, whereas their main antagonists can go to Jordan or Lebanon, to live alongside more of their ethnic brethren and co-religionists. It was theirs first, and longest, and they need it the most.

Captured is the right term, it implies that the Israelis have taken something that doesn't belong to them which in this case is true. If I was to say to you, a member of my family lived in your home 50 years ago and now I would like my land back I'm pretty sure it would be a different story - yes I am using an over simplistic analogy to make a point.

And that discounts the idea that The West is allowing the Jews to do recapture their homeland as a Mea Culpa (penance) for the Holocaust, and the Arabs simply got in the way, while that Penance is being fulfilled.

The Arabs simply got in the way? What a crude way of looking at it. Regardless of the Zionist-Arab differences they are still human beings and and deserve everything any Jew will ever deserve, almost sounds as if you're insinuating Arab-Palestinians are second class.

"...Without slaughter? I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from but there is a genocide of the Palestinian people if you want to believe it or not..."

Wake me up, when the Jews have shipped millions of Palestinians to Extermination Centers, and gassed them, and cremated and buried the bodies, and then we'll be in a position to talk about 'genocide'.

Squeezing people off their land, or expelling them, is not 'genocide'.

At worst, it is 'ethnic cleansing', of the kind in which the objects of the exercise are still alive at the end of the sequence.

Expulsion is not Extermination.

Genocide doesn't have to be a quick process, 100 of Palestinians are dying each year through unprovoked attacks on the Gaza Strip and through illegal settlements in the West Bank. I dont doubt what happened in Germany wasn't appalling but it doesnt make it right to engage different tactics in order to gain the same outcome.

Are you reading what you're writing? These "Objects" as you call them are real people losing their lives, livelihood and communities to make way for people which are in no need of refuge from the big bad world.

Oh, and, for someone who had all of two whole posts under his-or-her belt, at the time of your writing here, you certainly and quickly moved to vigorously criticize one of your colleagues who happens to hold an opinion that runs contrary to your own, and who voiced that opinion in a manner that struck you as making light of the subject.

I dont see the relevance that I've posted 3 times does that make my opinion or weight of my argument less valid? I dont think so, I could, however go a smaller thread and introduce myself and bump more post number but a large posting number doesn't necessary mean anything other than how long you've been apart of the forum or the amount of free time you have on your hands.

 

[WillReadmore]

Many Palestinian Arabs living in occupied regions of the West Bank at this very moment dont have the right to vote. Hypothetically speaking if the entire west bank was "folded" into Israel do you think there will be genuine representative for the people of Palestine? I doubt it.

There are already over 2million Palestinian refugees from the west bank alone. You're right there is no solution and definitely not a 2 or 1 state solution.

I'm sure a one state solution would not lead to immediate equality of representation. Even today, Arab citizens of Israel do not have full equality, although there are Arabs in the Knesset. But, it seems to offer something more realistic than the notion that the occupation of West Bank will end, leaving behind an autonomous state.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Jews are afraid of democracy and in favor of apartheid, is that what your spam is intended to convey? Arabs have been the majority in historical Palestine for the last 1000 years and your amateur night hasbara isn't changing any minds about Israel's ham-handed ethnic cleansing."

Oh, my, but we ARE a little testy today, aren't we?

Try getting this through your own thick pro-Palestinian filters, for once...

The Jews hold the land...

They aren't giving it back...

And they're in the end-stage of grabbing the rest of it, even as we write here...

The Jews are being given a 'free pass' to re-take their old homeland, by those who count...

As a Penance for allowing 6,000,000 of them to be killed without stopping it...

And there is nothing that you-and-yours can do, to stop the Jews from re-taking that homeland...

The Palestinians can go to Jordan, or Lebanon, and rebuild their lives...

The Jews have nowhere else to go...

And, given the rag-tag condition of all of Israel's neighboring Muslim-Arab countries, and their present inability to make credible war...

And given 9-11 and the London Tube bombings...

And given the power of Israel and the IDF, and their nuclear arsenal...

The Western Powers will give the Israelis one helluva lot of latitude in playing-out the end-game...

Nobody is going to step-up to the plate to save the Palestinians from being nudged off their land and expelled across the borders when the time comes...

The world at-large is bone-tired of this horseshit and the stupidity and craziness of the Palestinians time after time after time, so that, by now, the world just wants this over in the quickest way possible, so long as people aren't slaughtered en masse in the process...

No Arab cavalry is coming over the hill to buy the Palestinians more time, this time, like they did in 1948, 1967 and 1973...

And the rest of the world no longer cares enough to even seriously consider intervening...

Not unless they're prepared to take-on the United States, as well, and at least some substantial portion of NATO...

I can't speak for our colleagues here, but I do not even attempt to conceal the idea that Israel is slowly but surely forcing the Muslim-Arabs off their old lands and kicking their raggedy asses out of the country...

As a matter of fact, I go out of my way to AFFIRM that this is EXACTLY what they are doing.

Hell, I don't even try to change minds or soft-soap the process, in this context.

I merely acknowledge that the Israelis ARE slowly but surely Expelling the Muslim-Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza from their lands - as much in repayment for the expelling of 1.x million Jews from Muslim lands in the 1948-1975 time-frame as anything else...

As stupidly as the Palestinians have conducted themselves throughout much of the past 65 years, and as many times as they have made bad choices in their dealings with Israel, in a very real sense, they have brought themselves to this sad state of affairs, by their intransigence and foolhardy reliance upon the worthless promises of their Arab neighbor-states...

The Muslim-Arabs of Palestine have LOST the Battle for Palestine.

I liken their continued idiotic resistance to that of a chicken that has just had its head cut off - it's dead - it just doesn't know it yet - as the torso continues to flap its wings and run madly about the barnyard, spouting blood - but, eventually, it runs out of synaptic energy and lies down and is quiet forevermore...

At least the Muslim-Arabs of Palestine have Jordanian citizenship to fall back on; they should have been evacuated by Jordan in 1967 after the Jordanians stupidly attacked Israel and after they got their asses kicked. Would've saved everybody a lot of hassle.

Time for the Muslim-Arabs of Palestine to pack-up and head for Jordan, where they're wanted, and while there's still time to drive-out under their own power, rather than being herded out later, when the other shoe eventually drops.

No trying to change minds, on my part.

No soft-soap.

Simply the cold, hard Reality best expressed as...

"Vae victus"...

Don't like it?

Come take the land back.

If you can.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Captured is the right term, it implies that the Israelis have taken something that doesn't belong to them which in this case is true..."

There is some truth to that; as usual, we are dealing with a mix of accuracy and inaccuracy, with respect to land-ownership, and with respect to entitlement to establish a polity exclusively for the benefit of population segment A or B. But they did, indeed, keep what was already theirs, and expand upon that, by force of arms. Nolo contendere. No contest.

"...If I was to say to you, a member of my family lived in your home 50 years ago and now I would like my land back I'm pretty sure it would be a different story - yes I am using an over simplistic analogy to make a point..."

Nolo contendere. No contest. Agreed.

The only difference being that it is being allowed in this case, because of the Holocaust.

"...The Arabs simply got in the way? What a crude way of looking at it..."

Agreed.

And, if there is substantive truth behind the idea of The West giving the Jews a free-pass, due to the Holocaust, out of a sense of Penance or Guilt, then, it will be correct to label that as...

"Crude but accurate"

"...Regardless of the Zionist-Arab differences they are still human beings and and deserve everything any Jew will ever deserve, almost sounds as if you're insinuating Arab-Palestinians are second class..."

No, I think that the Palestinians are entitled to Life, Liberty and Happiness, so to speak, just like everyone else on the face of the planet.

It's just that now they're going to have to seek that Life, Liberty and Happiness someplace else.

"...Genocide doesn't have to be a quick process, 100 of Palestinians are dying each year through unprovoked attacks on the Gaza Strip and through illegal settlements in the West Bank..."

We can dance for hours or days, as to whether attacks upon Gaza are 'unprovoked' or not, but, to hack past all that foilage, suffice it to say that War Casualties (righteous or otherwise) are not routinely considered to be contributions to a Genocide sequence, and, frankly, I'm obliged to reject that one, out of cold, dispassionate logic.

"...I dont doubt what happened in Germany wasn't appalling but it doesnt make it right to engage different tactics in order to gain the same outcome..."

The Jews don't want to KILL the Muslim-Arabs... they just want them the hell off the land that they covet, and that they're in the process of re-capturing, in order to complete the acquisition and consolidation of a reborn Eretz Yisrael.

"...Are you reading what you're writing? These 'Objects' as you call them are real people losing their lives, livelihood and communities to make way for people which are in no need of refuge from the big bad world..."

I am, indeed, reading (and reflecting upon) what I'm writing. I, too, understand that the 'objects of the exercise' (the Palestinians who are being displaced by the Israeli take-over of their lands) are people being damaged by the process. But I see the Jews as in more dire need of refuge than the Muslim-Arabs of Palestine. At least the Palestinians can move to Jordan (to take advantage of their Jordanian citizenship) or Lebanon, to rebuild their lives. The Jews have no such next-door neighbor. The Holy Land is the one and only chance they've had at a homeland in 1900 years of waiting.

"...I dont see the relevance that I've posted 3 times does that make my opinion or weight of my argument less valid? I dont think so, I could, however go a smaller thread and introduce myself and bump more post number but a large posting number doesn't necessary mean anything other than how long you've been apart of the forum or the amount of free time you have on your hands."

Well-said.

 

[docmauser1]

It hit me that the reason we fought hard against Palestinian recognition as a state by the UN is that statehood for Palestine makes a single state solution more difficult. The reasons given publicly seem nonsensical at best if the intent is a two state solution. And, that keeps me wondering what John Kerry and our DoS is actually doing today. What is it that we are trying to negotiate with them? I'm a little shocked to hear this idea of a mass ethnic cleansing for West Bank by Israel. It seems their step wise progress has been reasonably effective so far, and it seems Israel is able to carry it out with surprisingly little international outrage.

It's the will of allah.

 

[docmauser1]

There are currently about ten million Jews and Arabs living between the River and the sea with roughly equal numbers of voting age nationals. Why would you believe that free elections would result in an Islamic dominated system?"

And where did "free elections" result in not an islamic-dominated system? Besides, what's wrong with a state of palistan, "so-muchly" "recognised"? Are we admitting, indirectly though, that palistan is a failure unable to cater to its own that it would rather dump them on others?

Equal numbers of Jews and Arabs between the River and the sea. Are Jews afraid to cast a ballot instead of a bullet?

Do palistanians want palistan and Israel too?

 

[docmauser1]

Many Palestinian Arabs living in occupied regions of the West Bank at this very moment dont have the right to vote. Hypothetically speaking if the entire west bank was "folded" into Israel do you think there will be genuine representative for the people of Palestine? I doubt it. There are already over 2million Palestinian refugees from the west bank alone. You're right there is no solution and definitely not a 2 or 1 state solution.

Humanitarian transfer and resettlement of palistanians in arab lands, of course. And no hereditary "refugees".

 

[docmauser1]

Jews are afraid of democracy and in favor of apartheid, is that what your spam is intended to convey?

Are americans afraid of democracy and in favor of apartheid that they don't allow mexicans to vote in the US?

 

[docmauser1]

Genocide doesn't have to be a quick process, 100 of Palestinians are dying each year through unprovoked attacks on the Gaza Strip and through illegal settlements in the West Bank. I dont doubt what happened in Germany wasn't appalling but it doesnt make it right to engage different tactics in order to gain the same outcome.

Yeah, right.

 

[Hossfly]

What was the ratio of Jew to Arab in Palestine of 1891, Hossie Boy?

"Ahad Ha'am traveled frequently to Palestine and published reports about the progress of Jewish settlement there. They were generally glum. They reported on hunger, on Arab dissatisfaction and unrest, on unemployment, and on people leaving Palestine. In an essay[5] soon after his 1891 journey to the area he warned against the 'great error', noticeable among Jewish settlers, of treating the fellahin with contempt, of regarding 'all

"Arabs a(s) savages of the desert, a people similar to a donkey'.[6][7]
Ahad Ha'am made his first trip to Palestine in 1891. The trip was prompted by concern that the Jaffa members of B'nai Moshe were mishandling land purchases for prospective immigrants and contributing to soaring land prices. His reputation as Zionism's major internal critic has its roots in the essay "A Truth from Eretz Yisrael" published in pamphlet form shortly after his visit in 1891.[8]

"Disturbed by what he saw in 1891, Ahad Ha'am wrote about external perceptions of Palestine:

"We who live abroad are accustomed to believe that almost all Eretz Yisrael is now uninhabited desert and whoever wishes can buy land there as he pleases. But this is not true. It is very difficult to find in the land [ha'aretz] cultivated fields that are not used for planting. Only those sand fields or stone mountains that would require the investment of hard labor and great expense to make them good for planting remain uncultivated and that's because the Arabs do not like working too much in the present for a distant future. Therefore, it is very difficult to find good land for cattle. And not only peasants, but also rich landowners, are not selling good land so easily..."

Ahad Ha'am - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The census of 1893 gives a total of 414,648 Arab Palestinians. Table A-1 below lists 469,000 Arabs for 1893, Bachi claimed there were 489,000, McCarthy estimated 553,000, and Rupin estimated about 600,000 all for approximately the same year. Likewise, as noted, there were wide discrepancies for Jews as well.

"Arjan Fassed and Lauri King Irani (see table below) claimed there were only 7,000 Jews in 1870, and 10,000 in 1893 (apparently taking the Jewish population figures, but not the Arab ones from the Turkish census of that year) while Bachi estimated that there were about 42,000 Jews in 1893. Hala Fattah claimed about 80,000 Jews in 1908, while table A-1 of Arjan El Fassed and Lauri King Irani listed only 60,000 in 1914."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

It certainly looks like Georgie Boy is spamming again. Sorry, Georgie Boy, but I happen to believe what Winston Churchill and the British officials said about the Arabs swarming in from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them. Georgie should certainly research other things, such as terrace farming in Israel by the Jews. Why not research what Menashe Harel had to say about this instead of spamming.
Studies in the Archaeology of the Iron Age in Israel and Jordan
books.google.com/books?isbn=0567194175
Amihay Mazar - 2001 - *History
Another geographer, Menashe Harel, has made a much more forceful ... 'with regard to land cultivation, terrace agriculture, unknown to earlier peoples, was the ...