Two Nations: One State?

[Peterf]

There are currently about ten million Jews and Arabs living between the River and the sea with roughly equal numbers of voting age nationals. Why would you believe that free elections would result in an Islamic dominated system?"

Because the Israelis would vote for many different parties, as they always do. While the 'Palestinians' - or those among them reluctant to have their throats cut - would vote for Hamas. And within hours of the formation of the 'Confederation' Islamists would pour in weapons and 'fighters' to help the rights confederates murder the wrong confederates.

We both know this would happen. The difference is that I don't want it to, and you do.

How do you imagine the IDF would respond to Islamist terror during the first hours of a Semitic Confederation in Israel/Palestine?

You seem to think the status quo should continue in Palestine; I don't.

But in your dream Confederation Israel will have ceased to exist and with it the Israeli Defence Force.

 

[Hossfly]

"If a two-state solution in historical Palestine is dead, is it possible for Jew and Arab to live as equals between the River and the sea?..."

IMHO, 'No'.

For the same reason that several pro-Palestinian bloggers have threatened on this board system over and over in recent months.

Namely: the likelihood that in a Single State, the Palestinians will proceed to out-breed the Jews and soon come to dominate the State and wrest control from the Jews.

Now that the Jews have recaptured their spiritual and ancestral homeland after so many centuries, and in light of the 6,000,000 of their own slaughtered in the Holocaust within living memory, there is not a snowball's chance in hell that the Jews will risk that control of the land ever again.

A Single State solution - with a large embedded Muslim-Arab population - carries within it the unstoppable seeds of the Death of Jewish Israel, if allowed to take-root and thrive.

That cannot and will not be allowed to materialize; not unless the Jews of Israel have suddenly lost all of the backbone they rediscovered after WWII and lost every ounce of logic and common sense that they possess.

It seems too late for a Two-State Solution, and a One-State Solution seems to be a no-brainer non-starter from the Israeli side of the fence (as perceived by this outsider).

"...Or are some Semites more equal than others?"

Yes, probably.

Some are more cultured and industrious and civilized than others.

Some have a history of being slaughtered in the millions, driving them forward.

Some have no place else nearby to go, to live amongst their ethnic kin and co-religionists.

Some have been repeatedly threatened with annihilation and being driven into the sea.

Some foolishly and routinely barrage civilians with rocketry, while others merely counterattack.

Some have tremendous military muscle to defend themselves and to enforce their will.

So, yes, apparently, some Semites ARE 'more equal' than others.

You constantly rely on the Jew's recapture of "their spiritual and ancestral homeland after so many centuries" without once telling us why Jews alone, among all nations of the world, should be allowed to reconquer lands their ancestor's pillaged thousands of years ago; you also repeatedly fail to mention the fact that Arabs have been the majority in historical Palestine for the most recent millennium.

As far as birthrates are concerned, it seems likely there will be millions of Jews and millions of Arabs living between the River and the sea for generations to come. Neither nation will be able to impose radical politics via the ballot box, and the IDF isn't likely to become an equal opportunity employer any time soon.

There's less than a snowball's chance in hell that an apartheid state will be tolerated in Palestine in place of a one or two-state solution, and maybe some Jews are going to have to learn they are simply not that special or go back where they came from.

I wonder if Georgie Boy can pause a moment from his hatred of the Jews to give us his opinion if many of these so-called Palestinians (if there was no trouble there now) would have heeded the advise of one of the leaders in Egypt for them to come back to Gaza. What do you think, Georgie Boy? Would some of them have gone back? After all, many of them have typical Egyptian last names. I wonder what would have happened if there were no fighting in Middle East Muslim countries right now and the "Palestinians" were called back by leaders to return to the land of their ancestors, how many would have heeded the call. I hate to become a Georgie Boy Jr. and repeat myself ad nauseam as he does, but I think most of the viewers will give me a pass on this.
Jews to no one's land

 

[georgephillip]

What was the ratio of Jew to Arab in Palestine of 1891, Hossie Boy?

"Ahad Ha'am traveled frequently to Palestine and published reports about the progress of Jewish settlement there. They were generally glum. They reported on hunger, on Arab dissatisfaction and unrest, on unemployment, and on people leaving Palestine. In an essay[5] soon after his 1891 journey to the area he warned against the 'great error', noticeable among Jewish settlers, of treating the fellahin with contempt, of regarding 'all

"Arabs a(s) savages of the desert, a people similar to a donkey'.[6][7]
Ahad Ha'am made his first trip to Palestine in 1891. The trip was prompted by concern that the Jaffa members of B'nai Moshe were mishandling land purchases for prospective immigrants and contributing to soaring land prices. His reputation as Zionism's major internal critic has its roots in the essay "A Truth from Eretz Yisrael" published in pamphlet form shortly after his visit in 1891.[8]

"Disturbed by what he saw in 1891, Ahad Ha'am wrote about external perceptions of Palestine:

"We who live abroad are accustomed to believe that almost all Eretz Yisrael is now uninhabited desert and whoever wishes can buy land there as he pleases. But this is not true. It is very difficult to find in the land [ha'aretz] cultivated fields that are not used for planting. Only those sand fields or stone mountains that would require the investment of hard labor and great expense to make them good for planting remain uncultivated and that's because the Arabs do not like working too much in the present for a distant future. Therefore, it is very difficult to find good land for cattle. And not only peasants, but also rich landowners, are not selling good land so easily..."

Ahad Ha'am - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The census of 1893 gives a total of 414,648 Arab Palestinians. Table A-1 below lists 469,000 Arabs for 1893, Bachi claimed there were 489,000, McCarthy estimated 553,000, and Rupin estimated about 600,000 all for approximately the same year. Likewise, as noted, there were wide discrepancies for Jews as well.

"Arjan Fassed and Lauri King Irani (see table below) claimed there were only 7,000 Jews in 1870, and 10,000 in 1893 (apparently taking the Jewish population figures, but not the Arab ones from the Turkish census of that year) while Bachi estimated that there were about 42,000 Jews in 1893. Hala Fattah claimed about 80,000 Jews in 1908, while table A-1 of Arjan El Fassed and Lauri King Irani listed only 60,000 in 1914."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is already one state.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DutFruWoF9s]Palestine/Israel -- One state solution, recognition as a Jewish state and the settlements - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I just love it when the Palestinians themselves, don't recognize their own independence; when their Independence Day was just last week. I guess that it was drummed-out by all the marching by HAMAS and the other Jihadist groups.

It is already one state.

Palestine/Israel -- One state solution, recognition as a Jewish state and the settlements -

(COMMENT)

A government and a people in chaos.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

No, quite impossible. Hundreds of millions of Arabs want to exterminate the Jews. The idea that Islamic fanatics could be trusted to live peacefully alongside Jewish neighbours deserves some sort of prize for scaling the summit of silliness.

They did it for 2000 years without any major incidents of violence.

That all changed when Zionists showed up at the turn of the last century.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

All things change with time. The Arab is not exempt from that law of the universe.

No, quite impossible. Hundreds of millions of Arabs want to exterminate the Jews. The idea that Islamic fanatics could be trusted to live peacefully alongside Jewish neighbours deserves some sort of prize for scaling the summit of silliness.

They did it for 2000 years without any major incidents of violence.

That all changed when Zionists showed up at the turn of the last century.

(COMMENT)

The question becomes, can the Arab adapt to change? Or, is it a culture that resists evolution and should be left behind?

No culture, no matter what its manifesto, can reset to clock back a 100 years. And while the world might look back today and say: We should have done this or that differently. We have to live with the choices made and move on to rectify and adapt to those decisions that were made.

The Arab seems to have an inability to accept the past and adapt to the future. That is unfortunate for the people and their culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[WillReadmore]

No, quite impossible. Hundreds of millions of Arabs want to exterminate the Jews. The idea that Islamic fanatics could be trusted to live peacefully alongside Jewish neighbours deserves some sort of prize for scaling the summit of silliness.

There are 5M Muslims in West Bank, Gaza and Israel combined.

And, President Abbas is an elected president who has been fully dedicated to the principle of Israel and Palestine coexisting in peace.

He has demonstrated this commitment in numerous ways, but perhaps most pointedly in his augmentation of security to a level where Israel has turned over an increasing amount of security responsibility to him.

 

[WillReadmore]

Billo_Really, et al,

All things change with time. The Arab is not exempt from that law of the universe.

No, quite impossible. Hundreds of millions of Arabs want to exterminate the Jews. The idea that Islamic fanatics could be trusted to live peacefully alongside Jewish neighbours deserves some sort of prize for scaling the summit of silliness.

They did it for 2000 years without any major incidents of violence.

That all changed when Zionists showed up at the turn of the last century.

(COMMENT)

The question becomes, can the Arab adapt to change? Or, is it a culture that resists evolution and should be left behind?

No culture, no matter what its manifesto, can reset to clock back a 100 years. And while the world might look back today and say: We should have done this or that differently. We have to live with the choices made and move on to rectify and adapt to those decisions that were made.

The Arab seems to have an inability to accept the past and adapt to the future. That is unfortunate for the people and their culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

You have no explanation for your rejection of President Abbas and his movement for peaceful coexistence?

How could Abbas be repeatedly elected in free and open elections if what you say is a serious issue?

 

[RoccoR]

WillReadmore, et al,

There has only been one election.

Billo_Really, et al,

All things change with time. The Arab is not exempt from that law of the universe.

They did it for 2000 years without any major incidents of violence.

That all changed when Zionists showed up at the turn of the last century.

(COMMENT)

The question becomes, can the Arab adapt to change? Or, is it a culture that resists evolution and should be left behind?

No culture, no matter what its manifesto, can reset to clock back a 100 years. And while the world might look back today and say: We should have done this or that differently. We have to live with the choices made and move on to rectify and adapt to those decisions that were made.

The Arab seems to have an inability to accept the past and adapt to the future. That is unfortunate for the people and their culture.

You have no explanation for your rejection of President Abbas and his movement for peaceful coexistence?

(COMMENT)

I cannot reject or accept the conditions set by President Abbas (PA) without knowing what they are. I do favorably acknowledge the Fatah peace talk engagement.

How could Abbas be repeatedly elected in free and open elections if what you say is a serious issue?

(COMMENT)

Again, there is only been one election, and HAMAS won that election.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[WillReadmore]

Again, there is only been one election, and HAMAS won that election.

Most Respectfully,
R

My guess is you are referring to the election in Gaza.

But, it hits me as a highly political decision on your part to ignore the presidential election of Abbas and the leadership he has provided from even before that through the present.

And it seems especially so since Hamas (your bugaboo) has stated that they back Abbas as speaking for all Palestine in negotiations with Israel, and that they will back a settlement he reaches with the sole caveat that it will be put to a national vote - which has always been the assumption.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, there is only been one election, and HAMAS won that election.

Most Respectfully,
R

My guess is you are referring to the election in Gaza.

But, it hits me as a highly political decision on your part to ignore the presidential election of Abbas and the leadership he has provided from even before that through the present.

And it seems especially so since Hamas (your bugaboo) has stated that they back Abbas as speaking for all Palestine in negotiations with Israel, and that they will back a settlement he reaches with the sole caveat that it will be put to a national vote - which has always been the assumption.

My guess is you are referring to the election in Gaza.

Common misperception. There was no election "in Gaza." The election was nation wide.

Abbas won the last election in 2005 and his term in office expired in 2009.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, there is only been one election, and HAMAS won that election.

Most Respectfully,
R

My guess is you are referring to the election in Gaza.

But, it hits me as a highly political decision on your part to ignore the presidential election of Abbas and the leadership he has provided from even before that through the present.

And it seems especially so since Hamas (your bugaboo) has stated that they back Abbas as speaking for all Palestine in negotiations with Israel, and that they will back a settlement he reaches with the sole caveat that it will be put to a national vote - which has always been the assumption.

That national vote includes refugees.

How far will that go without RoR?

Like I say, there will not be a peace agreement.

 

[WillReadmore]

That national vote includes refugees.

How far will that go without RoR?

Like I say, there will not be a peace agreement.

I agree. RoR, Division of Jerusalem, returning to Palestinians the West Bank land stolen from them, the ending of the financial benefit of continued theft of property, along with the several political problems of the settlements, the hate built by decades of occupation and its opposition - I really doubt all that can be solved.

My guess is that at some point, West Bank will be folded into Israel, with the Israeli government becoming representative of all citizens within those borders.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Like I say, there will not be a peace agreement."

Agreed. A blind man could see that a mile off.

 

[RoccoR]

WillReadmore, et al,

Relative to the legitimacy of the Government goes, my position has consistently been that both governments are expired under the Basic Law.

Again, there is only been one election, and HAMAS won that election.

My guess is you are referring to the election in Gaza.

But, it hits me as a highly political decision on your part to ignore the presidential election of Abbas and the leadership he has provided from even before that through the present.

And it seems especially so since Hamas (your bugaboo) has stated that they back Abbas as speaking for all Palestine in negotiations with Israel, and that they will back a settlement he reaches with the sole caveat that it will be put to a national vote - which has always been the assumption.

(COMMENT)

I don't think this is true.

The Islamist Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip Friday rejected a return to Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, after US Secretary of State John Kerry announced an imminent resumption of negotiations.

"Hamas rejects Kerry's announcement of a return to talks and considers the Palestinian Authority's return to negotiations with the occupation to be at odds with the national consensus," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told AFP.

As the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority resume, analysts are beginning to look further into the dynamic of Fatah, which rules the West Bank, and Hamas, in Gaza, and how their lack of co-operation is a fatal flaw for peace in Israel.
SOURCE: Hamas-Fatah Split

SOURCE: Hamas rejects return to Mideast peace talks July 19, 2013

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCCo5aHT0mg]Haim Bresheeth speaks about the One State Solution in Palestine/Israel - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0iBWjCF9o]Haim Bresheeth speaks about the One State Solution in Palestine/Israel - YouTube[/ame]

 

[docmauser1]

Don't forget the Christians. They hold an extraordinary influence in Palestine and very few Muslims are fanatics.

And this conjecture is based exactly on what?

I don't see an Islamic state in the making.

Noone saw beyond the dumbass "arab spring" too, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

There are currently about ten million Jews and Arabs living between the River and the sea with roughly equal numbers of voting age nationals. Why would you believe that free elections would result in an Islamic dominated system?"

And where did "free elections" result in not an islamic-dominated system? Besides, what's wrong with a state of palistan, "so-muchly" "recognised"? Are we admitting, indirectly though, that palistan is a failure unable to cater to its own that it would rather dump them on others?

 

[docmauser1]

I don't see one either in Palestine; however, the borders of the New Middle East that are currently being redrawn by the US and NATO speculate on expanding Israel/Palestine's northern border as far as Lebanon's Litani river; I'm not sure how Hezbollah will feel about that?

We aren't what to call it drivel or drivel?