Two kinds of Muslims

[Ravi]

Furthermore, a truly devout Christian who follows the teachings of Christ, and adheres to the 10 Commandments, is more or less NEVER going to run afoul of secular law.

The exact opposite is true of a truly devout Muslim.


True story

Really? What do devout Muslims believe that is different than what devout Christians believe?

That secular governments are an abomination.


duh!

Link?

Again I ask you, when did you become a propagandist?

IMO, fundies are fundies and you have become a fundie.

 

[manifold]

Only through Ravi's black and white, you're with us or against us, agenda whoring lenses would I look anything even remotely like a fundie.

I wonder what convinced her? Being pro-choice, pro gay-marriage, a staunch evolutionist, pro legalization of prostitution, gambling and marijuana? ... oh so many to choose from.

Ravi's cupeth of fail now officially runneth over.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

]My understanding of sharia law is that it means...follow God's law. My understanding of biblical teachings is that it means...follow God's law.

Please list where God/Jesus says follow secular law (aside from taxes) and where the Koran says anything different.

Thanks!

Do you really want me to demonstrate your massive ignorance in public?

Don't answer, I really do not care if that is what you want, it is what you are going to get.

[Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Romans 13:1-7 NIV

As for Sharia law and the Koran.

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Sura 9:5

"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Sura 9:29

"The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." Sura 8:173

Tell me honestly, which one sounds more like it is willing to let you live and follow the laws you want?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Really? What do devout Muslims believe that is different than what devout Christians believe?

That secular governments are an abomination.


duh!

Link?

Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Sharee‘ah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Qur’aan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maa’idah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: “And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: “. . . and follow not their vain desires . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Sharee‘ah, no matter how small: “. . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . .” [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question “Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance?” [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: “. . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?” [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon.” [aayah 44]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers)” [aayah 45]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient).” [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: “. . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . .” [aayah 42]

 

[Ravi]

Only through Ravi's black and white, you're with us or against us, agenda whoring lenses would I look anything even remotely like a fundie.

I wonder what convinced her? Being pro-choice, pro gay-marriage, a staunch evolutionist, pro legalization of prostitution, gambling and marijuana? ... oh so many to choose from.

Ravi's cupeth of fail now officially runneth over.

So, no links? Why am I not surprised.

 

[Ravi]

]My understanding of sharia law is that it means...follow God's law. My understanding of biblical teachings is that it means...follow God's law.

Please list where God/Jesus says follow secular law (aside from taxes) and where the Koran says anything different.

Thanks!

Do you really want me to demonstrate your massive ignorance in public?

Don't answer, I really do not care if that is what you want, it is what you are going to get.

[Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Romans 13:1-7 NIV

As for Sharia law and the Koran.

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Sura 9:5

"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Sura 9:29

"The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." Sura 8:173

Tell me honestly, which one sounds more like it is willing to let you live and follow the laws you want?

You got the first part right...even though you claimed prior to that that the bible said secular law trumped biblical law.

The funny thing is, aside from your out of context quotes, the imam that wants to build in NYC said EXACTLY the same thing you said about the bible about the Koran...sharia is God's law and therefore the US constitution is within the keeping of God's law.

EPIC fail.

You're welcome.

 

[manifold]

That secular governments are an abomination.


duh!

Link?

Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Sharee‘ah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Qur’aan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maa’idah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: “And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: “. . . and follow not their vain desires . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Sharee‘ah, no matter how small: “. . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . .” [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question “Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance?” [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: “. . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?” [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon.” [aayah 44]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers)” [aayah 45]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient).” [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: “. . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . .” [aayah 42]

Of course I assume by now you realize that trying to educate Ravi about anything that conflicts with her agenda driven world view is entirely hopeless. But still, I applaud your effort.

 

[Ravi]

How is this different than the Christian belief that God makes laws through man and therefore man's laws are actually God's laws?

And more to the point, why does it matter? Our constitution forbids religion from ruling the country. How does building a mosque in NYC translate into sharia law ruling the US?

 

[Si modo]

I doubt it. More like the observation of how the followers of your book act. Do you deny that the violent, murdering extremists exist?

No. My criteria for determining which Muslims are murdering extremists just happen to be a bit more stringent than the West's. ....

Right. It's not murder if the dead are not innocent. And, a Muslim gets to define what innocence is and is not.

Nice deal for the Muslim conscience.

 

[Hister]

How is this different than the Christian belief that God makes laws through man and therefore man's laws are actually God's laws?

And more to the point, why does it matter? Our constitution forbids religion from ruling the country. How does building a mosque in NYC translate into sharia law ruling the US?

All Muslims would prefer to live under sharia law, otherwise they're not even muslim. So it goes to prove that American Muslims would prefer the US be under Sharia law. Figure 10 kids per muslim woman, 3 or 4 wives per man and sooner or later they will outnumber kafir and change the constitution. Of course not in our lifetime, so most people would prefer not to think or do anything about it.

 

[Kalam]

I doubt it. More like the observation of how the followers of your book act. Do you deny that the violent, murdering extremists exist?

No. My criteria for determining which Muslims are murdering extremists just happen to be a bit more stringent than the West's. ....

Right. It's not murder if the dead are not innocent. And, a Muslim gets to define what innocence is and is not.

Nice deal for the Muslim conscience.

Not quite. Unlike with the US government, political expediency doesn't factor into my decision to consider a group "terrorists" or not.

 

[manifold]

Just the facts:

Islam is the only major world "religion" that also a system of governance unto itself.

Islam (Sharia law) is not compatible with secular law.

Judaism and Christianity are perfectly compatible with secular law.

 

[Ravi]

Just the facts:

Islam is the only major world "religion" that also a system of governance unto itself.

Islam (Sharia law) is not compatible with secular law.

Judaism and Christianity are perfectly compatible with secular law.

Really? Honor your mother and father or go to hell???

What part of Sharia law is incompatible?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Just the facts:

Islam is the only major world "religion" that also a system of governance unto itself.

Islam (Sharia law) is not compatible with secular law.

Judaism and Christianity are perfectly compatible with secular law.

Really? Honor your mother and father or go to hell???

What part of Sharia law is incompatible?

Dont already have enough facts to ignore?
Id say your plate is full glutton

 

[manifold]

If there are Muslims that are willing to "ignore" the parts of their faith that instruct them to implement sharia law then I would call them cafeteria Muslims and they get my full endorsement.

 

[Ravi]

Just the facts:

Islam is the only major world "religion" that also a system of governance unto itself.

Islam (Sharia law) is not compatible with secular law.

Judaism and Christianity are perfectly compatible with secular law.

Really? Honor your mother and father or go to hell???

What part of Sharia law is incompatible?

Dont already have enough facts to ignore?
Id say your plate is full glutton

I've yet to find one of your links credible.

 

[lizzie]

The active muslims are the one's on the front lines of the jihad, committing acts of violence and terrorism and so on. And the passive Muslims simply lie in wait, quietly supporting the active Muslims, and perpetuating the misconception that they are tolerant and peaceful.

.

Hard to say for sure. The muslims that I am friends with would be classified as the passive type, and they blend into American society without any problems. The practice their faith, they love their families, they make a good living in our country, and they are quite likable. I've heard the opinion expressed that they aren't so much supportive of the radical jihadists, as that they are fearful of them, so they just keep quiet on the subject.

 

[Ravi]

If there are Muslims that are willing to "ignore" the parts of their faith that instruct them to implement sharia law then I would call them cafeteria Muslims and they get my full endorsement.

Hello? What part of Sharia law is incompatible?

 

[manifold]

The active muslims are the one's on the front lines of the jihad, committing acts of violence and terrorism and so on. And the passive Muslims simply lie in wait, quietly supporting the active Muslims, and perpetuating the misconception that they are tolerant and peaceful.

.

Hard to say for sure. The muslims that I am friends with would be classified as the passive type, and they blend into American society without any problems. The practice their faith, they love their families, they make a good living in our country, and they are quite likable. I've heard the opinion expressed that they aren't so much supportive of the radical jihadists, as that they are fearful of them, so they just keep quiet on the subject.

That's understandable.

But what I'd want to know is that if it came down to it, which side would they pick, secular law or sharia law?

 

[manifold]

If there are Muslims that are willing to "ignore" the parts of their faith that instruct them to implement sharia law then I would call them cafeteria Muslims and they get my full endorsement.

Hello? What part of Sharia law is incompatible?

If you're going to play stupid you're going to have to play by yourself.