Two Americas: Finance or Foodstamps

[Anachronism]

Government sets your rates and removes your competition. You see that as minor regulation? Seriously?

The government sets the rates based on the information that we provide them. Now what they do with that info varies from state to state. Some are little more than rubber stamps. Others (like most in the Northeast) can be very tedious to deal with.

As for removing our competition; that's not necessarily true. Each city and town does have the legal ability to run their own utilities individually or in groups (and more than a few do). Individual customers now have the ability to choose where they want their power to come from to a lesser degree. There are also a lot more options these days for people to go "off the grid" with different forms of private generation systems.

No matter who you have for a company, the only significant differences are in the customer service and the maintenance of the physical facilities; neither of which are things that the states regulate. They can fine us for poor customer service and for interuptions, but there is very little they can do to make us change anything.

 

[Hum Dinger]

Clearly, both the Republicans and the Democrats are engineering the destruction of the American middle class:

The Republicans continually champion the cause of the super wealthy, instituting trickle up economics, credit in lieu of pay increases, the end of all protectionist policies, the export of both manufacturing jobs and skilled professional jobs, and the destruction of education.

Meanwhile the Democrats, fail to promote protectionism, always lose on tax policy, do nothing to stop the flow of jobs out of the country, but continue to promote social welfare programs and at best McJobs. The Democrats are geat at championing the cause of the middle class - and always losing.

Then the two parties divide the middle class politically by divying up the hot button issues: abortion, gay rights, gun rights...all of which are inconsequential compared the to economic decline of the American middle class.

If the current trend continues, think of what America will be in 30 years:

A nation where everything is owned by 1% of the worlds population - and most of them not even Americans. For 99% of Americans, subsistence living on social welfare, working pitiful minimal wage jobs, or miltary service (followed by a lifetime of the former two).

America will become the exporter of military security and the importer of everything else.

Any economic system is an environment created by the dominate military paradigm - the U.S. government.

What is needed NOW is protectionist economic policies and an extremely increasingly progressive tax code. We desparately need to correct the balance of the wealth distribution.

All of this has been played out before - it's an almost exact duplicate of the economics that destroyed the Roman empire and drove western Europe into the dark ages:

An over extended military, a huge government deficit, all wealth concentrated into the hands of a very few, and huge welfare programs to placate the masses. Finally, a major military defeat destroying all government controls and subsequent anarchy (no, not free liberaterianism). 200 years of wars, famines and plagues followed by 500 years of absolute totalitarian rule by the most barbaric.

 

[georgephillip]

The actual Two Americas are those who Feed From The Taxpayer Trough and the rest of us who work hard and foot the bill.

Which category do Goldman Sachs and the Pentagon fit in?

Are you convinced that direct economic relief for millions of hardworking Americans represents a fiscally irresponsible splurge, while simultaneously backing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of economically useless tax cuts for the wealthy?

Cut food stamps for the working poor, but save the billionaires?

 

[georgephillip]

I think you're trying to squeeze a very large genie (named globalization) back into its bottle.

True. That's exactly what I'm looking to do.

Would the US dollar continue to function as the world's reserve currency if your suggestions were implemented?

I couldn't care any less, since in my model no American Dollars would be allowed to leave the United States in the first place.

The chances seem remote that many elected Republicans OR Democrats would support your demands since they obtain most of their campaign donations from Americans who profit the most from having their cake and eating it too.

Among the things that I believe need to be changed is the removal of the ability for any individual or organization (including business') that cannot cast a vote in an election to provide any type of material support to a candidate in that election. That includes: money, campaign workers, airtime, commercials, etc...

So in the end while Local 369 of the American Clown Union can't support the Democrat, neither can Fortune 500, Inc support the Republican... BECAUSE neither organization can cast a ballot in the election for either candidate.

We have to find ways to globalize Democracy, imho, instead of sealing our borders and trying to ignore the other 96% of human beings on this planet.

Not interested.

If the US dollar lost its reserve currency role, it's possible the Fed would monetize the current US debt through the process of inflation.

If that process got out of control, every $10 bill in your possession could magically transform into a $5.

While it does seem to me many of our problems started when capital acquired the freedom to cross borders more readily than labor,that doesn't mean you can arbitrarily reimpose capital flight restrictions forty years later without major fiscal upheavals.

You seem to endorse going back to a time when the US was the dominant economic power in the world. We occupied that position after most of the world was devastated by WWII.

Those days are gone and rust belt jobs will come back before they do.

 

[bucs90]

The WSJ reports CEO bonuses at 50 major corporations jumped by 30.5%, the biggest gain in at least three years.

Meanwhile... back on Main Street...

"From November to December of 2010 487,000 Americans were added to the food stamp program.

"Keep in mind this all occurred while the stock market continued to soar and has rallied nearly 100 percent from the lows reached in March of 2009."

A fraction of 1% of all Americans are gorging on gluttony while as many as 45,000,000 Americans feast on food stamps.

"This is the highest percent of Americans on food assistance since the Great Depression when there was no food assistance early on aside from local charities."

'Think there might be a connection between Wall Street's gain and Main Street's pain?

A Tale of Two Americas...

So in 2.5 years under Obama, the rich have gotten richer, and the poor have gotten poorer?

Got it.

 

[bucs90]

Besides............as long as our society can lend itself to paying a basketball player or rapper $100,000,000 a year, then I'd say we're gonna end up ok.

 

[georgephillip]

A fraction of 1% of all Americans are gorging on gluttony while as many as 45,000,000 Americans feast on food stamps

Yes, there is no ruling elite class in Marxism, comrade. Stalin, Kruschev, Putin, Soviet leaders were as poor as the farmers. You are so onto something.

One of Lenin's first moves after seizing power in 1918 was to abolish all of Russia's Soviets. He apparently had no choice as millions of Russians were facing starvation, and only Wall Street capitalists were willing to provide the loans necessary to purchase food.

Since that time elites in Russia and Wall Street shared a huge lie, namely, that Russia and later the USSR was a socialist state.

It never was, and neither was Mao's China.

Socialism may or may not work.
So far, it's never been tried.

And regardless of what's happened in Russia and China in the last hundred years, currently in the land of the free 45,000,000 Americans require food stamps to feed their families while the richest 1% of their countrymen just increased their share of national wealth by two percentage points.

Lenin and Stalin (not to mention Hitler) would smile.

 

[georgephillip]

Sorry to hear that, but no one is in buisness, or in investing to break even or make little return on the investment. We are already in a low yield investment climate because of the shift from an investment to credit based interest system. If I don't get at least a rate that is equal to inflation on invested funds, I actually loose money despite net increase because the value of my funds is less than it was when they were commited.

Kenny, I'm talking about the third largest Gas & Electric Utility Company in the United States. We're talking about a company that I can honestly say is not interested in its business, its customers, its product, or its employees. It is interested in only ONE THING.... Its profit margin.

We have one of the WORST customer service ratings in the entire United States for utility companies. We've now reorganized TWICE in the last four years. The morale inside the company is almost non-existant. We're losing quality people on a daily basis who are going other places for less money to get the hell out of the company. Yet the only thing that the executives want to look at is the bottom line.

In my mind that is going to completely and utterly DESTROY this company. Not only are they going to find that this reorg doesn't work, they're going to find that it only makes things even worse. THEN what are they going to do?

Ding, ding, ding. You take a government regulated business that operates according to government rules and use that as proof that free markets don't work. Yep, makes a lot of sense, you're onto something there. Politicians in fact didn't create a consumer centric company, which of course means we need to give politicians more power and control over more of our economy. I do enjoy these debates, so educational.

Did Enron work better?

 

[Anachronism]

f the US dollar lost its reserve currency role, it's possible the Fed would monetize the current US debt through the process of inflation.

If that process got out of control, every $10 bill in your possession could magically transform into a $5.

Better to have those $10 bills converted into $1 bills in the short-term and be able to rebuild our economy in a proper way than to have those $10 bills converted to $100 bills by continuing to destroy this country and its citizenry through globalization.

While it does seem to me many of our problems started when capital acquired the freedom to cross borders more readily than labor,that doesn't mean you can arbitrarily reimpose capital flight restrictions forty years later without major fiscal upheavals.

I'd rather go through those upheavals in the short-term than to watch this country crash and burn in the long-term.

You seem to endorse going back to a time when the US was the dominant economic power in the world. We occupied that position after most of the world was devastated by WWII.

I'm endorsing going back to a time when the US was an ISOLATIONIST nation.

Those days are gone and rust belt jobs will come back before they do.

Then there is truly no hope whatsoever for this country or its people.

 

[Uncle Kenny]

A fraction of 1% of all Americans are gorging on gluttony while as many as 45,000,000 Americans feast on food stamps

Yes, there is no ruling elite class in Marxism, comrade. Stalin, Kruschev, Putin, Soviet leaders were as poor as the farmers. You are so onto something.

One of Lenin's first moves after seizing power in 1918 was to abolish all of Russia's Soviets. He apparently had no choice as millions of Russians were facing starvation, and only Wall Street capitalists were willing to provide the loans necessary to purchase food.

Since that time elites in Russia and Wall Street shared a huge lie, namely, that Russia and later the USSR was a socialist state.

It never was, and neither was Mao's China.

Socialism may or may not work.
So far, it's never been tried.

And regardless of what's happened in Russia and China in the last hundred years, currently in the land of the free 45,000,000 Americans require food stamps to feed their families while the richest 1% of their countrymen just increased their share of national wealth by two percentage points.

Lenin and Stalin (not to mention Hitler) would smile.

Socialist economy is based on an ideal, not a reality. Besides, if our people all had to live at the standard that economic model would facilitate, our foodstamp recipients would have to lower their quality of life. Eventually all workers are less productive to the point of failure when there is no prospect of advancement or subjective success, especially when there is no demishing reward for less production.

 

[georgephillip]

Clearly, both the Republicans and the Democrats are engineering the destruction of the American middle class:

The Republicans continually champion the cause of the super wealthy, instituting trickle up economics, credit in lieu of pay increases, the end of all protectionist policies, the export of both manufacturing jobs and skilled professional jobs, and the destruction of education.

Meanwhile the Democrats, fail to promote protectionism, always lose on tax policy, do nothing to stop the flow of jobs out of the country, but continue to promote social welfare programs and at best McJobs. The Democrats are geat at championing the cause of the middle class - and always losing.

Then the two parties divide the middle class politically by divying up the hot button issues: abortion, gay rights, gun rights...all of which are inconsequential compared the to economic decline of the American middle class.

If the current trend continues, think of what America will be in 30 years:

A nation where everything is owned by 1% of the worlds population - and most of them not even Americans. For 99% of Americans, subsistence living on social welfare, working pitiful minimal wage jobs, or miltary service (followed by a lifetime of the former two).

America will become the exporter of military security and the importer of everything else.

Any economic system is an environment created by the dominate military paradigm - the U.S. government.

What is needed NOW is protectionist economic policies and an extremely increasingly progressive tax code. We desparately need to correct the balance of the wealth distribution.

All of this has been played out before - it's an almost exact duplicate of the economics that destroyed the Roman empire and drove western Europe into the dark ages:

An over extended military, a huge government deficit, all wealth concentrated into the hands of a very few, and huge welfare programs to placate the masses. Finally, a major military defeat destroying all government controls and subsequent anarchy (no, not free liberaterianism). 200 years of wars, famines and plagues followed by 500 years of absolute totalitarian rule by the most barbaric.

And after those 500 years of authoritarian barbarians came capitalism. The next three decades in America could manufacture as much misery as five centuries in Feudal Europe.

The corporation has been called the last remaining institution of 20th Century authoritarians. It certainly functions as a top down tyranny without concern for anything or anyone except its bottom line.

If public services like education and safety become corporate shells like Enron or Halliburton, it will be because Republicans AND Democrats AND Wall Street succeeded in dividing Americans on relatively trivial social issues.

Progressive taxation would certainly be the fastest way to cripple corporate power, but it's hard to see how that would happen while most US voters continue "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat at the polls.

One of the few mistakes I haven't made is bringing a child into this world.

Those who have should give serious thought to the world the global rich have in mind for the next generation.

 

[Uncle Kenny]

Clearly, both the Republicans and the Democrats are engineering the destruction of the American middle class:

The Republicans continually champion the cause of the super wealthy, instituting trickle up economics, credit in lieu of pay increases, the end of all protectionist policies, the export of both manufacturing jobs and skilled professional jobs, and the destruction of education.

Meanwhile the Democrats, fail to promote protectionism, always lose on tax policy, do nothing to stop the flow of jobs out of the country, but continue to promote social welfare programs and at best McJobs. The Democrats are geat at championing the cause of the middle class - and always losing.

Then the two parties divide the middle class politically by divying up the hot button issues: abortion, gay rights, gun rights...all of which are inconsequential compared the to economic decline of the American middle class.

If the current trend continues, think of what America will be in 30 years:

A nation where everything is owned by 1% of the worlds population - and most of them not even Americans. For 99% of Americans, subsistence living on social welfare, working pitiful minimal wage jobs, or miltary service (followed by a lifetime of the former two).

America will become the exporter of military security and the importer of everything else.

Any economic system is an environment created by the dominate military paradigm - the U.S. government.

What is needed NOW is protectionist economic policies and an extremely increasingly progressive tax code. We desparately need to correct the balance of the wealth distribution.

All of this has been played out before - it's an almost exact duplicate of the economics that destroyed the Roman empire and drove western Europe into the dark ages:

An over extended military, a huge government deficit, all wealth concentrated into the hands of a very few, and huge welfare programs to placate the masses. Finally, a major military defeat destroying all government controls and subsequent anarchy (no, not free liberaterianism). 200 years of wars, famines and plagues followed by 500 years of absolute totalitarian rule by the most barbaric.

And after those 500 years of authoritarian barbarians came capitalism. The next three decades in America could manufacture as much misery as five centuries in Feudal Europe.

The corporation has been called the last remaining institution of 20th Century authoritarians. It certainly functions as a top down tyranny without concern for anything or anyone except its bottom line.

If public services like education and safety become corporate shells like Enron or Halliburton, it will be because Republicans AND Democrats AND Wall Street succeeded in dividing Americans on relatively trivial social issues.

Progressive taxation would certainly be the fastest way to cripple corporate power, but it's hard to see how that would happen while most US voters continue "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat at the polls.

One of the few mistakes I haven't made is bringing a child into this world.

Those who have should give serious thought to the world the global rich have in mind for the next generation.

Listen Jimmy Carter, you are not going to be able to do anything to effect industry with taxation that won't do more damage to the middle and lower classes. Industrial entities can simply pass higher taxes on to the consumers which is called inflation. Carter found this out when we hit double digit unemployement and double digit inflation.

Taxes would effect the bottom line, only it would be most individual bottom lines that would take the hit. Economics doesn't work the simplistic way you seem to think it does and history bears this out. It took Reagan to undo Carter, who would undo the current government without the manufacturing and savings based economy that facilitated recovery in the early '80s? Answer...no one could pull that off.

 

[Hum Dinger]

Clearly, both the Republicans and the Democrats are engineering the destruction of the American middle class:

The Republicans continually champion the cause of the super wealthy, instituting trickle up economics, credit in lieu of pay increases, the end of all protectionist policies, the export of both manufacturing jobs and skilled professional jobs, and the destruction of education.

Meanwhile the Democrats, fail to promote protectionism, always lose on tax policy, do nothing to stop the flow of jobs out of the country, but continue to promote social welfare programs and at best McJobs. The Democrats are geat at championing the cause of the middle class - and always losing.

Then the two parties divide the middle class politically by divying up the hot button issues: abortion, gay rights, gun rights...all of which are inconsequential compared the to economic decline of the American middle class.

If the current trend continues, think of what America will be in 30 years:

A nation where everything is owned by 1% of the worlds population - and most of them not even Americans. For 99% of Americans, subsistence living on social welfare, working pitiful minimal wage jobs, or miltary service (followed by a lifetime of the former two).

America will become the exporter of military security and the importer of everything else.

Any economic system is an environment created by the dominate military paradigm - the U.S. government.

What is needed NOW is protectionist economic policies and an extremely increasingly progressive tax code. We desparately need to correct the balance of the wealth distribution.

All of this has been played out before - it's an almost exact duplicate of the economics that destroyed the Roman empire and drove western Europe into the dark ages:

An over extended military, a huge government deficit, all wealth concentrated into the hands of a very few, and huge welfare programs to placate the masses. Finally, a major military defeat destroying all government controls and subsequent anarchy (no, not free liberaterianism). 200 years of wars, famines and plagues followed by 500 years of absolute totalitarian rule by the most barbaric.

And after those 500 years of authoritarian barbarians came capitalism. The next three decades in America could manufacture as much misery as five centuries in Feudal Europe.

The corporation has been called the last remaining institution of 20th Century authoritarians. It certainly functions as a top down tyranny without concern for anything or anyone except its bottom line.

If public services like education and safety become corporate shells like Enron or Halliburton, it will be because Republicans AND Democrats AND Wall Street succeeded in dividing Americans on relatively trivial social issues.

Progressive taxation would certainly be the fastest way to cripple corporate power, but it's hard to see how that would happen while most US voters continue "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat at the polls.

One of the few mistakes I haven't made is bringing a child into this world.

Those who have should give serious thought to the world the global rich have in mind for the next generation.

Listen Jimmy Carter, you are not going to be able to do anything to effect industry with taxation that won't do more damage to the middle and lower classes. Industrial entities can simply pass higher taxes on to the consumers which is called inflation. Carter found this out when we hit double digit unemployement and double digit inflation.

Taxes would effect the bottom line, only it would be most individual bottom lines that would take the hit. Economics doesn't work the simplistic way you seem to think it does and history bears this out. It took Reagan to undo Carter, who would undo the current government without the manufacturing and savings based economy that facilitated recovery in the early '80s? Answer...no one could pull that off.

What is needed is rectify this mess is an epiphany of the middle class. There is no one single magic bullet. Protectionism and an increase in taxation on the wealthy would be a good start, but not enough:

The employees of the America would have to start demanding that wages be based on their productive value, not on the least that it would take to replace them (i.e their 'market value').

Additionally, boycotts of good that are overpriced - a rebellion against inflation.

There is no doubt that the wealthy will respond in any way possible to protect and increase their take of the world's wealth against any changes in government policy, the employees if the world would have to stand united and act in unison to counteract these.

Ultimately, it is the employees of the world that hold, by far, the balance of the real economic power in the world - it's only a matter of them acting in unison that is the question.

BTW, Reagan's economis policies lead to the worst recession since the great depression in the early 1980s. There was no recovery in the early 1980s. Later on, by ballooning the deficit and investing in the military industrial complex, Reagan succeeded in causing somewhat of an economic boom, but that was nothing in comparison to the economic boom of that was caused by the increased taxation of the early 1990s.

 

[Uncle Kenny]

And after those 500 years of authoritarian barbarians came capitalism. The next three decades in America could manufacture as much misery as five centuries in Feudal Europe.

The corporation has been called the last remaining institution of 20th Century authoritarians. It certainly functions as a top down tyranny without concern for anything or anyone except its bottom line.

If public services like education and safety become corporate shells like Enron or Halliburton, it will be because Republicans AND Democrats AND Wall Street succeeded in dividing Americans on relatively trivial social issues.

Progressive taxation would certainly be the fastest way to cripple corporate power, but it's hard to see how that would happen while most US voters continue "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat at the polls.

One of the few mistakes I haven't made is bringing a child into this world.

Those who have should give serious thought to the world the global rich have in mind for the next generation.

Listen Jimmy Carter, you are not going to be able to do anything to effect industry with taxation that won't do more damage to the middle and lower classes. Industrial entities can simply pass higher taxes on to the consumers which is called inflation. Carter found this out when we hit double digit unemployement and double digit inflation.

Taxes would effect the bottom line, only it would be most individual bottom lines that would take the hit. Economics doesn't work the simplistic way you seem to think it does and history bears this out. It took Reagan to undo Carter, who would undo the current government without the manufacturing and savings based economy that facilitated recovery in the early '80s? Answer...no one could pull that off.

What is needed is rectify this mess is an epiphany of the middle class. There is no one single magic bullet. Protectionism and an increase in taxation on the wealthy would be a good start, but not enough:

The employees of the America would have to start demanding that wages be based on their productive value, not on the least that it would take to replace them (i.e their 'market value').

Additionally, boycotts of good that are overpriced - a rebellion against inflation.

There is no doubt that the wealthy will respond in any way possible to protect and increase their take of the world's wealth against any changes in government policy, the employees if the world would have to stand united and act in unison to counteract these.

Ultimately, it is the employees of the world that hold, by far, the balance of the real economic power in the world - it's only a matter of them acting in unison that is the question.

BTW, Reagan's economis policies lead to the worst recession since the great depression in the early 1980s. There was no recovery in the early 1980s. Later on, by ballooning the deficit and investing in the military industrial complex, Reagan succeeded in causing somewhat of an economic boom, but that was nothing in comparison to the economic boom of that was caused by the increased taxation of the early 1990s.

I love revisionist history. Reagan inherited the recession that was already out of control, he didn't cause it as it was already pushing double digit unemployment and inflation in 78'. Of course it didn't end immediately as no economic policy is immediate and all rely on factors outside the control of government, but to say it was Reagan who caused it is absolutely untrue and historicly inaccurate. Of course we are 2 years into Obama and it still isn't his recession, but I guess that is a matter of party affiliation with most people here, right? Kinda like Vietnam being "Nixon's war" instead of Kennedy's?

The taxation suited the economy in the early 80's and again in the 90's. We can increase taxation on stable economic situations as it doesn't accompany downsizing and reduced investment returns like it does in a recessed economy. In recessed economy it shrinks returns on investment, stops job creation and creates a higher price, lower volume production model that is less labor intensive and smaller. That is counterproductive when expansion is the goal, like say, during a recession. Common sense economics and history support this.

That we have no real incentive to maintain domestic manufacturing and since we have expanded global trade, labor is at a huge disadvantage that didn't exist in the 80s. The pitiful stable investment returns are also not helping. Low interest rates are great for borrowers, terrible for investors and for buisness expansion by extension. We need prime rates back above 7.5% and return rates higher than inflation or everyone's wealth will be decreasing in value despite the raw numbers.

 

[JFK_USA]

I mean we must protect the rich. I mean who cares about people having food. I mean the rich people should have the right to take a shit on anyone. I mean its because they are just so awesome I mean they must have 15 yachts.

I like being republican, hating myself is so great.

 

[Avatar4321]

How about this....

Maybe if the AVERAGE AMERICANS (including the ones on Food Stamps) started pushing for two simple things.... NATIONALISM and ISOLATIONISM, these issues with Wall Street might become less of a problem....

If we told our Legislators to stop ALLOWING American companies to send their work overseas.
If we told our Legislators to stop ALLOWING foreign companies to do business here in the United States.
If we told these companies that until they become America-centric we will no longer buy their products or support their business'.

Then you would see a change. Make companies like FORD, Coca-Cola, McDonalds, etc... decide if they are AMERICAN companies, or if they are foreign companies. One or the other. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

How exactly do you intend to force businesses to remain in the United States?

 

[Avatar4321]

The WSJ reports CEO bonuses at 50 major corporations jumped by 30.5%, the biggest gain in at least three years.

Meanwhile... back on Main Street...

"From November to December of 2010 487,000 Americans were added to the food stamp program.

"Keep in mind this all occurred while the stock market continued to soar and has rallied nearly 100 percent from the lows reached in March of 2009."

A fraction of 1% of all Americans are gorging on gluttony while as many as 45,000,000 Americans feast on food stamps.

"This is the highest percent of Americans on food assistance since the Great Depression when there was no food assistance early on aside from local charities."

'Think there might be a connection between Wall Street's gain and Main Street's pain?

A Tale of Two Americas...

So in 2.5 years under Obama, the rich have gotten richer, and the poor have gotten poorer?

Got it.

Poor can't get poorer.

 

[Avatar4321]

I will never understand this irrational hatred for corporations. It really makes absolutely no sense.

 

[JFK_USA]

I will never understand this irrational hatred for corporations. It really makes absolutely no sense.

Because they don't have Americans best interest in mind. They are to NEVER be trusted.

 

[georgephillip]

The actual Two Americas are those who Feed From The Taxpayer Trough and the rest of us who work hard and foot the bill.

And all by Statist design.

Is the New York Fed Statist or private?

Rich (mostly hereditary) aristocrats in the US use the big government/big business cartel to siphon wealth from productive workers through tax policies and exorbitant interest rates on mortgages and credit card balances.

Aristocrats have controlled every government that ever existed.
They control your government today.
Why do you think less democracy solves that problem?