Turkish PM clears way for Iraq assault

[Gunny]

Maybe you not, but maybe the retired Sergeant who thinks Turkey is dependent to USA on economic reasons.
I argument that Turkey is not. Those who care will read and understand.

So? You're just arguing more dumb shit. You think Turkey can stand up to the US militarily, and now you think Turkey is not dependent on the US for its defense systems.

You're willfully blind to the truth because you can't handle the fact that your country just ain't the greatest thing since sliced cheese. Tough.

 

[ekrem]

So? You're just arguing more dumb shit. You think Turkey can stand up to the US militarily, and now you think Turkey is not dependent on the US for its defense systems.

You're willfully blind to the truth because you can't handle the fact that your country just ain't the greatest thing since sliced cheese. Tough.

I am not blind. I know it myself, that Airforce is dependent on Lockheed Martin, by the way Turkey is one of best customers abroad.
Every problem has a solution. If Politicians and Army of Turkey say cooperation with USA will be stopped, all these things of F-35 are thought very well, before such statements are made.

It will boost Turkey to go more autarkic in airforce, like Turkey currently goes in Navy and Army technology from Frigates, Corvettes, Battle Tanks, Satellites, Howitzers, Battle Helicopters.
USA will loose one of biggest weapons procurer.

And i do not think, that Turkey will go in airforce from one depedency(USA) to another (Russia) etc.
- Re-engineering F-16s to Turkish needs
- integrateing Turkish components to F-16 chassis
- changeing F-16 design
- arming F-16's with local rockets

etc.
Source Codes to do all this with Block 40 F-16 we have. Under CCIP update we also get source codes of Block 50 F-16.
But if CCIP is cancelled by Ankara we will reverse-engineer on basis of Block-40. Or develop complete own fire-control system and mission computer.
We have experience with F-16 and industrial potential in general as well as industrial knowlegde of F-16 is there.

I think to have read, that USA's F.16 will still be in service to 2040 year. So it is Turkey. Turkey will not buy different aircrafts from anyone and set-up plenty of different logistical support. We will stick with what we have and improve that and invest major bucks to develop Turkish-16 (T-16) and constantly improve to Turkish Airforce's needs.

 

[Gunny]

I am not blind. I know it myself, that Airforce is dependent on Lockheed Martin, by the way Turkey is one of best customers abroad.
Every problem has a solution. If Politicians and Army of Turkey say cooperation with USA will be stopped, all these things of F-35 are thought very well, before such statements are made.

It will boost Turkey to go more autarkic in airforce, like Turkey currently goes in Navy and Army technology from Frigates, Corvettes, Battle Tanks, Satellites, Howitzers, Battle Helicopters.
USA will loose one of biggest weapons procurer.

And i do not think, that Turkey will go in airforce from one depedency(USA) to another (Russia) etc.
- Re-engineering F-16s to Turkish needs
- integrateing Turkish components to F-16 chassis
- changeing F-16 design
- arming F-16's with local rockets

etc.
Source Codes to do all this with Block 40 F-16 we have. Under CCIP update we also get source codes of Block 50 F-16.
But if CCIP is cancelled by Ankara we will reverse-engineer on basis of Block-40. Or develop complete own fire-control system and mission computer.
We have experience with F-16 and industrial potential in general as well as industrial knowlegde of F-16 is there.

I think to have read, that USA's F.16 will still be in service to 2040 year. So it is Turkey. Turkey will not buy different aircrafts from anyone and set-up plenty of different logistical support. We will stick with what we have and improve that and invest major bucks to develop Turkish-16 (T-16) and constantly improve to Turkish Airforce's needs.

Dude, you are BEYOND delusional. Hitler would have loved to have you on his staff.

 

[ekrem]

Dude, you are BEYOND delusional. Hitler would have loved to have you on his staff.

What delusional?
Do you think delusional people like you are in power-mechanism of Turkish capital?
Turkish Airforce's dependenccy on Lockheed Martin is known and before makeing statements of stopping USA-Turkey military relation, such things of Lockheed Martin are severaly thought over. If not, these people would not be in that position and security-related institutions would be not needed.

Every change in requirement, leads to new ways.
Speaking in context:
a) buying with Russian or European aircrafts
b) going ahead with what we have unmodernized in future
c) make own fighters via reverse-engineering and constanly modernize whole platform to future needs.

Don't think, that Turkey loosens dependency on USA and will make same error to replace dependency with Russia, Europe etc.
Airforce is something of National Security.
In this case, we can cancel Frigate-Programme or other programme and redirect engineers on F-16.

Money should be least problem for something of National Security priority.
Turkish economy is booming since Winter 2002.
So question is:

- Are the needs of Airforce and their planning for future of National Security priority? YES
- Is money available ? YES
- Is industrial capacity and knowledge vailable ? YES

We are not Saudi-Arabia, nor Iran. Both are industrial far beyond us.
Turkey modernizes F-16 of countries like Jordan, Pakistan.
At TAI production-facilities in Eskisehir went 276 out for Turkish and Egyptian army.
We are after USA biggest user of F-16, and have deep experience in F-16 operateing.
If someone can engineer on F-16, it is Turkey.
The motive out of need, is also there in this case.

 

[Gunny]

What delusional?
Do you think delusional people like you are in power-mechanism of Turkish capital?
Turkish Airforce's dependenccy on Lockheed Martin is known and before makeing statements of stopping USA-Turkey military relation, such things of Lockheed Martin are severaly thought over. If not, these people would not be in that position and security-related institutions would be not needed.

Every change in requirement, leads to new ways.
Speaking in context:
a) buying with Russian or European aircrafts
b) going ahead with what we have unmodernized in future
c) make own fighters via reverse-engineering and constanly modernize whole platform to future needs.

Don't think, that Turkey loosens dependency on USA and will make same error to replace dependency with Russia, Europe etc.
Airforce is something of National Security.
In this case, we can cancel Frigate-Programme or other programme and redirect engineers on F-16.

Money should be least problem for something of National Security priority.
Turkish economy is booming since Winter 2002.
So question is:

- Are the needs of Airforce and their planning for future of National Security priority? YES
- Is money available ? YES
- Is industrial capacity and knowledge vailable ? YES

We are not Saudi-Arabia, nor Iran. Both are industrial far beyond us.
Turkey modernizes F-16 of countries like Jordan, Pakistan.
At TAI production-facilities in Eskisehir went 276 out for Turkish and Egyptian army.
We are after USA biggest user of F-16, and have deep experience in F-16 operateing.
If someone can engineer on F-16, it is Turkey.
The motive out of need, is also there in this case.

Yeah, you're delusional. That's besides being an off-the-scale extremist nationalist. You can sit there and draw little pictures and graphs, and dig up your stupid little numbers and the fact is, neither you nor your country are anything near what you try to claim.

Where you work doesn't make you any less of a goober.

 

[ekrem]

Facts speak for itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Aerospace_Industries

Involved in new Attack Helicopter production, F-16 production, F-16 modernization etc.
Till 2005 even Lockheed Martin hold 42% of shares. Now 100% owned by Turkish Army.

Rest is a question of
- National Security priority
- Money

once military cooperation with USA is stopped.

 

[Gunny]

Facts speak for itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Aerospace_Industries

Involved in new Attack Helicopter production, F-16 production, F-16 modernization etc.
Till 2005 even Lockheed Martin hold 42% of shares. Now 100% owned by Turkish Army.

Rest is a question of
- National Security priority
- Money

once military cooperation with USA is stopped.

Whatever dude. Go ahead and stop it. We used you when you were convenient. If you're going to be a pain in the ass, you obviously aren't worth the noise you're making.

But I don't see it happening. Guess that'll get a river of tears out of extremist nutjobs like you, but too bad, huh?

 

[Doug]

Turkey is a rising power and if it plays its cards right, it will be one of the leading nations on the earth by the middle of the century, and certainly by its end.

It is vital for the United States to understand this and to act accordingly. You definitely do not want the Turks as your enemy.

The Turks have always been underestimated by the West. Look at the casual assumption by the British that they could knock her out of the war via an invasion at Gallipoli. Think again!

They have lots of people, and a favorable economic relationship with Europe, and a critical geographical location. Their national spirit is high and has not been eaten away by cultural revolutionaries on the Left. Another way to put it is, they have guts. (If only all American POWs during the Korean War had acted like the Turkish POWs did.)

The Turks' arrival in Korea garnered a considerable amount of publicity. The Turkish soldiers' fierce appearance, flowing mustaches and great knives were a war correspondent's dream come true. Although they had not fought in a major conflict since World War I, the Turkish soldiers had the reputation of being rough, hard fighters who preferred the offensive position and gave no quarter in battle. Most of the enlisted men were young and carried a sidearm sword that, to Americans and the other U.N. troops, appeared to be a long knife. No other U.N. troops were armed with that kind of knife, or indeed any other weapon out of the ordinary. The Turks had a dangerous proficiency in close combat with their long knives that made all other Allied forces want to stay clear of them.

...

In the course of the U.N. offensive and the Chinese counteroffensive, the 1st Turkish Brigade suffered 3,514 casualties, of which 741 were killed in action, 2,068 wounded, 163 missing and 244 taken prisoner, as well as 298 noncombatant casualties.

The Turks, armed and trained by American military advisers, did better than even they had hoped or expected in this, their first real combat since World War I. The American units to which they were attached respected their skills and tenacity in combat. Some comments by American officers give insight into the Turks and their abilities. "They really prefer to be on the offensive and handle it quite well," went one appraisal. "They are not as good at defensive positions, and certainly never retreat." Another report told of their patrol skills: "Certain Turkish patrols always reported high body counts when they returned from patrols. Headquarters always scoffed at the high numbers, much higher in fact than any other unit, until the Turks decided to bring the enemy bodies back and dump them at headquarters for the body count."

The Turks acquitted themselves in a brave and noble fashion in some of the worst conditions experienced in the Korean War. Very little else could have been required or expected of them. Their heavy casualties speak of their honor and commitment. Their bravery requires no embellishment. It stands on its own.

The whole article is well worth reading, especially for people who have forgotten how easy it is to make mistakes in war, and the consequences of them when facing a fanatically-determined enemy.

Actually, the Turks seem to be beginning to understand how to deal with their one big potential weakness: the Kurds.

After trying for decades to apply fire and steel to the problem, the new moderate Islamist government is following the example of the world's strongest military power, which also has a multi-racial nation to deal with, and is wooing them with kindness. (Let's not get too gooey here -- there is still a long way to go!)

If the Turks can channel their nationalism into the kind of inclusive patriotism that the United States has had, and convince their neighbors that they will be a reasonable strong friend and not an unreasonable one, their country has a bright future. And they will be a strong ally for us, and for other democracies.

 

[ekrem]

From Jane's Intelligence

Turkish soldiers have always been renowned for their fighting qualities and observers continue to be impressed by the endurance they show during a physically demanding training regime.

http://www8.janes.com/Search/docume...ttp://search.janes.com/Search&Prod_Name=JWAR&

Center for European Security Studies (CSS) in Netehrlands.

The majority of the Turks attach more value to the family, local community and/or the nation than to the individual. These mindsets are reinforced by the education system, which teaches Turkish children to love the motherland, ‘to be a Turk’ and that the military is the ideal embodiment of Turkishness. Children are told in schools and by their parents that all heroes in Turkish society are warriors, that the military is the symbol of national unity and that ‘every Turk is born as a soldier’. The strong relationship between the military and public is reinforced by compulsory service, as this is considered by most Turks as a holy duty.

http://www.cess.org/publications/harmoniepapers/pdfs/HarmoniePaper19.pdf

 

[ekrem]

In Turkey is prepared new constitution. It will be sent into parliament in first quartal of 2008, and when adopted in parliament, it will be sent to referendum for citizens of Turkey.

It is currently heavily debated to expand compulsory service in Army also to Turkish girls of age 20.
State Minister Cubukcu for Family Affairs argues, that a girl going with 20 to Army will not be "married" by her family in young ages before going to Army.
Also Family Minister argues, that in this case family will leave girl in education system till reached age 20, and it will multiply Turkish Human capital for economy and raise women's share in economy and higher posts in economy.
Also Turkish Girls which wear headscarve will unwear head-scarve in Army for 15 months.
After army service she decides again to wear head-scarve she can.
http://www.internethaber.com/news_detail.php?id=108541

Currently Turkish girls in Army is on voluntary basis.

 

[Doug]

Most of the Europeans have done their best to make it appear that to be a modern country, a liberal democracy, you also have to be militarily weak.

But that's not true. European weakness was a choice, which the US allowed to happen.

Let the Turks advance to becoming a modern nation -- not a "European" nation but a modern Turkish nation -- with the complete rule of law and equality for women and protection for religious minorities -- and then by their prosperity and strength they will set an example for, and become the leaders of, the world's Muslim nations and indeed for all nations emerging from backwardness.

 

[Toro]

Good Lord

The Dems wanting to call the slaughter of Armenians a "genocide" 90 years after the fact has got to be one of the stupidest foreign policy initiatives in some time.

How antagonizing a nation that is critical in the war against terror and a strong ally of the US for symbolic purposes is beyond me.

What is wrong with these people?

 

[roomy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

 

[roomy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4103931.stm

 

[roomy]

http://www.noturkey.eu/en.html

 

[ekrem]

@roomy

I expect from you to post Links into the context of our discussion. Our discussion based on your claims, that Turkey will have to "vacate" Cyprus. These were exactly your words and exactly your claim.
None of your sources/links back up your claim. Nor is something similar demanded from Turkey nor Turkey will "vacate" the island.

Recognizing South-Cyprus as a state by Turkey via oblegations of EU common market, since Cyprus joned EU common market in 2004, and "vacateing" Northern-Cyprus are different things, don't you think?
We still do not recognize South-Cyprus, so what? Accession talks were anyway opened, by big lobbying from your British Government.

 

[roomy]

http://www.cer.org.uk/pdf/policybrief_cyprus_hannay_july06.pdf

 

[ekrem]

http://www.cer.org.uk/pdf/policybrief_cyprus_hannay_july06.pdf

It is a good link, I would also link for American audience which have no clue about the island. Sums it clearly up what it is all about regarding the island Cyprus.

BUT, it is also not said there, that Turkey has to "vacate" the island.
Such statement by EU you will never find, as it was never made, and is not a precondition for Turkey to join EU.

The only thing EU wants is Turkey expanding customs union to South Cyprus, since Cyprus joined EU customs Union in 2004.
Turkey is member to EU customs union since 1996.

Turkey gave promise to open up airports and naval ports for South-Cyprus vessels. EU made promise to establish trade links to North-Cyprus.
EU still today did not hold its promise, so South-Cyprus ships stay out of Turkey as return.

 

[roomy]

It is a good link, I would also link for American audience which have no clue about the island. Sums it clearly up what it is all about regarding the island Cyprus.

BUT, it is also not said there, that Turkey has to "vacate" the island.
Such statement by EU you will never find, as it was never made, and is not a precondition for Turkey to join EU.

The only thing EU wants is Turkey expanding customs union to South Cyprus, since Cyprus joined EU customs Union in 2004.
Turkey is member to EU customs union since 1996.

Turkey gave promise to open up airports and naval ports for South-Cyprus vessels. EU made promise to establish trade links to North-Cyprus.
EU still today did not hold its promise, so South-Cyprus ships stay out of Turkey as return.

Once Turkey recognises Cyprus it has in effect handed back the Island and vacated.Obviously the Turkish Cypriots won't have to leave.The whole of Cyprus has already joined the EU, the problem begins and ends with the illegal occupation of the northern side of the Island.

 

[roomy]

http://www.ceps.be/Article.php?article_id=524