Turkey' Erdogan says Ukraine deserves to be a NATO member

[zaangalewa]

Actually, they can see what is German understanding of the term 'freedom' (blasphemy, discrimination, abusing and genocide) for the Russians and they don't want it. ...

Russians don't want to be free? The Russian Christians prefer it to have a patriarch from KGB's grace? The Russians hate it that the Nazis had called Slaws "Aryans"? The Russians did not murder and displace in masses Germans and also people from all nations of Russia including Russians on their own because of the orders of a Georgian? ...

You are really not funny, Russian.

 

[Kruska]

You can repeat that a hundred times, but that won't change the reality. Ukraine was never close enough to join NATO. NATO refused to provide the MAP and set a certain time period for that. Since 2014 a formal cause emerged to prolong the process indefinitely as long as Ukraine would have 'disputed territories' with a neighbour.

Putin would have rejected any 'assistance clauses', because had your read their demands in December 2021 you would know that 'demilitarization' meant not only neutrality but halting any military cooperation with Ukraine and NATO.

Knowing how far the Russians interpret certain terms, if that suits them, and knowing how far they interpreted a decentralisation clause in the Minsk Accords, I am sure that 'denazification' would also mean a deeply divided state with pro-Russia regions having a say in domestic and foreign policies.

First off all December 2021 was already far to late to come up with such negotiations towards Russia, since it was evident to Russia, that Ukraine would become a NATO member. NATO NEVER backed down on it's goal to integrate Ukraine into it's network. If they had - a simple official deceleration by NATO in regards to assuring a "neutral" Ukraine would have sufficed. But NATO never offered or assured such a deceleration. Instead it continued Ukraine's integration process into NATO. - and that's a FACT.

That Putin will NEVER allow for a Ukraine to be a NATO member is also a known FACT.

What NATO refused to do, was to forward an official security assistance treaty with a neutral Ukraine - hence Putin was enabled/encouraged to try his coup attempt in Feb. 2022 which due to it's failure turned into the now existing Ukraine-Russian war. Now one and a half years later, NATO is fumbling all kind of scurrilous plans and ideas to do, what they should have already done in 2014. (however until today still not pursuing a neutral Ukraine).

But now with Russian troops occupying around 20% of Ukraine - the Goebbels scholar doesn't want to negotiate a treaty with Russia - hence NATO is stuck again, and therefore Biden now keeps fumbling onto "individual" assurance guarantees towards Ukraine.

Individual assurance guarantees do not provide the basis needed to enact NATO article 5 - So it is still a NATO aka USA proxy war with Russia - that will enable what NATO aka (USA/Poland/UK) always wanted, latest since March 2022 that certain countries can provide NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine.

Once that happens Putin will definitely retaliate via a general Mobilization in Russia and if necessary NBC weapons - and China in order to prevent a nuclear escalation will have no other choice then, but to support Russia militarily with conventional means. That is why China forwarded a peace proposal that was immediately - even before being presented public - rejected and discredited by NATO.

Unless you have reasons to believe that China is willing to drop Russia - for the sake of NATO, NATO happily controlling Ukraine and having destroyed Russia's economy - then this scenario is going to happen eventually. Which BTW wouldn't even be a bad idea - since (see this forum) loads of Americans believe that China is no match for them due to missing "practical" modern warfare experience. And I agree that "modern practical military experience" would enable China to handle the Taiwan issue far more effective - if China would be forced to do so.

This Ukraine-Russia war isn't simply just about these two countries, but NATO aka democratic lefty&Lib countries flexing their economic and military muscles towards autocratic countries - just as they have done globally, non stop since the 90'ies. I do not recall that e.g. Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Libya, Serbia, Russia and Afghanistan have ever attacked NATO. And now this autocratic China is emerging more and more - huuuu-panic - hey guys (NATO) there is another one we need to kick into his balls - oh wait, that fellow has huge balls and nukes, let's try and fuck up Russia first.

So back to "democratic" Erdogan and "democratic" Turkey - when is NATO going to subdue them? or kick them out of NATO first?

 

[zaangalewa]

... In fact, given the nature of German ruling regime,

Which one of the few thousands which we tested?

the limited nuclear war for wiping out Germany is much more preferred option.

I will never understand why Russians always sentence themselve to death when they make something wrong instead to correct just simple their mistakes. And a limited nuclear war is anyway impossible. Your Russian longing for death has no romantic backround but only a vodka-shotting background.

By the way: In the Ukraine is no vodka any longer. They brought it to Moscow. Happy home travel!

 

[ESay]

First off all December 2021 was already far to late to come up with such negotiations towards Russia, since it was evident to Russia, that Ukraine would become a NATO member. NATO NEVER backed down on it's goal to integrate Ukraine into it's network. If they had - a simple official deceleration by NATO in regards to assuring a "neutral" Ukraine would have sufficed. But NATO never offered or assured such a deceleration. Instead it continued Ukraine's integration process into NATO. - and that's a FACT.

That Putin will NEVER allow for a Ukraine to be a NATO member is also a known FACT.

What NATO refused to do, was to forward an official security assistance treaty with a neutral Ukraine - hence Putin was enabled/encouraged to try his coup attempt in Feb. 2022 which due to it's failure turned into the now existing Ukraine-Russian war. Now one and a half years later, NATO is fumbling all kind of scurrilous plans and ideas to do, what they should have already done in 2014. (however until today still not pursuing a neutral Ukraine).

But now with Russian troops occupying around 20% of Ukraine - the Goebbels scholar doesn't want to negotiate a treaty with Russia - hence NATO is stuck again, and therefore Biden now keeps fumbling onto "individual" assurance guarantees towards Ukraine.

Individual assurance guarantees do not provide the basis needed to enact NATO article 5 - So it is still a NATO aka USA proxy war with Russia - that will enable what NATO aka (USA/Poland/UK) always wanted, latest since March 2022 that certain countries can provide NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine.

Once that happens Putin will definitely retaliate via a general Mobilization in Russia and if necessary NBC weapons - and China in order to prevent a nuclear escalation will have no other choice then, but to support Russia militarily with conventional means. That is why China forwarded a peace proposal that was immediately - even before being presented public - rejected and discredited by NATO.

Unless you have reasons to believe that China is willing to drop Russia - for the sake of NATO, NATO happily controlling Ukraine and having destroyed Russia's economy - then this scenario is going to happen eventually. Which BTW wouldn't even be a bad idea - since (see this forum) loads of Americans believe that China is no match for them due to missing "practical" modern warfare experience. And I agree that "modern practical military experience" would enable China to handle the Taiwan issue far more effective - if China would be forced to do so.

This Ukraine-Russia war isn't simply just about these two countries, but NATO aka democratic lefty&Lib countries flexing their economic and military muscles towards autocratic countries - just as they have done globally, non stop since the 90'ies. I do not recall that e.g. Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Libya, Serbia, Russia and Afghanistan have ever attacked NATO. And now this autocratic China is emerging more and more - huuuu-panic - hey guys (NATO) there is another one we need to kick into his balls - oh wait, that fellow has huge balls and nukes, let's try and fuck up Russia first.

So back to "democratic" Erdogan and "democratic" Turkey - when is NATO going to subdue them? or kick them out of NATO first?

1. About Ukraine's NATO membership let's agree to disagree. We already discussed that before and there is no sense to repeat that over and over again.

2. Yes, many things should have been done in 2014, or at least since 2014. But too many people, especially in Western Europe, wanted to have business with Russia as usual.

3. I said over and over again that I don't see a possibility for Ukraine becoming a NATO member in the near future. The Korean scenario (without foreign troops on the ground) is my favourite.

4. Turkey is a very complex question. Maybe there will be some point in the future when other NATO members will have to postpone its membership there.

 

[Kruska]

1. About Ukraine's NATO membership let's agree to disagree. We already discussed that before and there is no sense to repeat that over and over again.

It's actually important to agree - otherwise you will never acquit to the fact that Ukraine's and NATO's persistence towards membership - is the cause of this issue.

2. Yes, many things should have been done in 2014, or at least since 2014. But too many people, especially in Western Europe, wanted to have business with Russia as usual.

Crimea - yes I agree with you - Donbas was an Ukrainian made issue that gave Putin the chance to move in. So negotiate about Crimea (ask the UN to move in until a free referendum is held.) - Ukraine accepts the referendum of the Donbas people - NATO declares Ukraine to be neutral - with respective security assurances and it would indeed have been just business (to everyone's benefit). You still keep refuting the NATO issue - that caused all this and much more in Feb. 2022.

3. I said over and over again that I don't see a possibility for Ukraine becoming a NATO member in the near future. The Korean scenario (without foreign troops on the ground) is my favourite.

Off course they will if Russia "needs" to give in - presently NATO as stated before - is already working out "individual" NATO assurances.
Korean scenario - without foreign troops???

4. Turkey is a very complex question. Maybe there will be some point in the future when other NATO members will have to postpone its membership there.

Something is definitely bound to happen - latest after the Ukraine Russian war.

 

[ESay]

It's actually important to agree - otherwise you will never acquit to the fact that Ukraine's and NATO's persistence towards membership - is the cause of this issue

Our views also differ here. Growing ambitions of Putin’s Russia and centuries long paradigm of 'gathering of Russian lands'.

Crimea - yes I agree with you - Donbas was an Ukrainian made issue that gave Putin the chance to move in. So negotiate about Crimea (ask the UN to move in until a free referendum is held.) - Ukraine accepts the referendum of the Donbas people - NATO declares Ukraine to be neutral - with respective security assurances and it would indeed have been just business (to everyone's benefit). You still keep refuting the NATO issue - that caused all this and much more in Feb. 2022

Basically, I agree on a formula 'territories in exchange on peace and Western vector'. But some questions arise. What territories? I agree on Crimea and Donbas. But will the Russians leave the occupied lands and give up a land bridge to Crimea?

Neutrality. What does that mean on practice? Only refusing to join NATO? Or there will be other limits concerning foreign policy, the size of military and military cooperation?

Off course they will if Russia "needs" to give in - presently NATO as stated before - is already working out "individual" NATO assurances.
Korean scenario - without foreign troops???

Yes, without foreign troops. Who will want to do that?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Actually, peace with Russia isn't possible with NATO membership for Ukraine. NATO membership for Ukraine will be open war declaration against Russia. And the war between NATO and Russia highly likely will be started by the Russian counter-force nuclear strike against Britain or the USA.

This is just as stupid today as the last time you posted it. Putin's strategy today is to try to extend the war in Ukraine until the West loses interest in it and stops supporting Ukraine, which is just as stupid as your nuclear threats. Even the other Russian ultranationalist, who supported the idea of a quick war in Ukraine have lost confidence in Putin's ability to prosecute this war successfully.

Before the war, Ukraine was denied NATO membership in order to try to preserve good relations with Russia, but good relations with Russia are no longer possible, and no negotiated peace is possible without NATO membership for Ukraine to guarantee it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There was talk of Ukraine joining NATO when Obama was President, and during the first Russian occupation. But NATO turned them down because Ukraine had corruption issues.

As a consequence of Putin’s arrogance and stupidity, the lawless invasion of Ukraine has served to make NATO stronger.

Indeed, countries such as Sweden might not have considered membership in NATO absent Putin’s criminal war.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Actually, peace with Russia isn't possible with NATO membership for Ukraine. NATO membership for Ukraine will be open war declaration against Russia. And the war between NATO and Russia highly likely will be started by the Russian counter-force nuclear strike against Britain or the USA.

Peace FOR Russia is not possible until it actively supports NATO for Ukraine and Putin gone.

 

[JGalt]

As a consequence of Putin’s arrogance and stupidity, the lawless invasion of Ukraine has served to make NATO stronger.

Indeed, countries such as Sweden might not have considered membership in NATO absent Putin’s criminal war.

Excuse me, but it was both Obama's and Biden's arrogance, stupidity and incompetence that allowed Russia to invade Ukraine. Never would have happened under Trump, thousands of people on both sides wouldn't have died, and we wouldn't be living under the threat of a nuclear war.

Maybe you should have thought of that before, bro. But I understand, bro. You liberal Democrats are a short-sighted bunch.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Excuse me, but it was both Obama's and Biden's arrogance, stupidity and incompetence that allowed Russia to invade Ukraine. Never would have happened under Trump, thousands of people on both sides wouldn't have died, and we wouldn't be living under the threat of a nuclear war.

Maybe you should have thought of that before, bro. But I understand, bro. You liberal Democrats are a short-sighted bunch.

You are a true believer, but there is no evidence that Putin had any respect for Trump or that Trump had any cards to play to prevent the invasion. Don't let Trump make a sucker out of you.

 

[JGalt]

You are a true believer, but there is no evidence that Putin had any respect for Trump or that Trump had any cards to play to prevent the invasion. Don't let Trump make a sucker out of you.

Of course I'm a true believer. I'd defend Trump down to the last drop of your blood.

Now excuse me. I have to go wait by the shortwave radio for his signal to carry out another insurgency on the White House. Later gator.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of course I'm a true believer. I'd defend Trump down to the last drop of your blood.

Now excuse me. I have to go wait by the shortwave radio for his signal to carry out another insurgency on the White House. Later gator.

In other words, you agree with me that there is no reason to think Trump could have prevented the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

 

[JGalt]

In other words, you agree with me that there is no reason to think Trump could have prevented the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I can't say that I've ever agreed with anything you've ever posted, bro.

But keep trying, maybe you'll come up with something.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I can't say that I've ever agreed with anything you've ever posted, bro.

But keep trying, maybe you'll come up with something.

Since you are clearly unable to come up with any reason to believe Trump would have been able to prevent the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it is obvious that you agree with me that Trump is full of shit when he claims he would have stopped it, even if you are reluctant to admit it.

 

[Silver Cat]

Russians don't want to be free? The Russian Christians prefer it to have a patriarch from KGB's grace? The Russians hate it that the Nazis had called Slaws "Aryans"? The Russians did not murder and displace in masses Germans and also people from all nations of Russia including Russians on their own because of the orders of a Georgian? ...

You are really not funny, Russian.

The Russians obviously don't want to be "free" in your understanding of the "freedom". They don't want to be "liberated" from their Church, from their land, from their culture, from their property, from their language and from their civil rights.
Neither Stalin nor Putin banned Russian language or Russian Church. One thing is collateral damage during a war, and quite different is deliberate discrimination, abusing and mass murders in peace time.

 

[JGalt]

Since you are clearly unable to come up with any reason to believe Trump would have been able to prevent the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it is obvious that you agree with me that Trump is full of shit when he claims he would have stopped it, even if you are reluctant to admit it.

Oh his policies would have prevented it alright. Just as they did for four years.

But that's irrelevant now, you're stuck with the shit sammich you voted for. So bon appetite, and try not to choke on it.

 

[Silver Cat]

In other words, you agree with me that there is no reason to think Trump could have prevented the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It was not difficult to prevent Russian invasion, almost everything that was necessary - was not encourage those European Nazies too much.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

No one cares what Russians do in their country.

What they do in Ukraine in discriminating, abusing, and mass murdering is the whole world's concern and interest.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Oh his policies would have prevented it alright. Just as they did for four years.

But that's irrelevant now, you're stuck with the shit sammich you voted for. So bon appetite, and try not to choke on it.

Again, you can't name any Trump policies that would have prevented the Russian invasion of Ukraine, yet you refuse to admit he is full of shit when he claims he could have prevented the invasion, why?