Trump's Jewish mediator condemns Palestinian violence

[P F Tinmore]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish.

Therefore, you have only two choices. Either an indigenous peoples has rights to be present on that homeland and have self-determination on that land, even if they have been, in the past, ethnically cleansed from that land by genocide and forced removal. OR An indigenous peoples, having been, in the past, ethnically cleansed from that land by genocide and forced removal, have lost all rights to that homeland.

Either way, the Jewish people have AT LEAST equal rights to that land -- either as an indigenous peoples (if you go with option 1) or as the latest and most successful invaders/colonizers (if you go with option 2).


Either way, the presence of a people who are indigenous to that land and have had a continuous presence in that land for 3000 years is not an act of hostility.

International law is based on the land belongs to the people and the people belong to the land. Religion is not an issue.

 

[Shusha]

International law is based on the land belongs to the people and the people belong to the land. Religion is not an issue.

Indigeneity in international law is specifically based on a people's cultural identity and NOT on possession. If you choose possession over culture you are going with option number 2 and you lose.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish.

Therefore, you have only two choices. Either an indigenous peoples has rights to be present on that homeland and have self-determination on that land, even if they have been, in the past, ethnically cleansed from that land by genocide and forced removal. OR An indigenous peoples, having been, in the past, ethnically cleansed from that land by genocide and forced removal, have lost all rights to that homeland.

Either way, the Jewish people have AT LEAST equal rights to that land -- either as an indigenous peoples (if you go with option 1) or as the latest and most successful invaders/colonizers (if you go with option 2).


Either way, the presence of a people who are indigenous to that land and have had a continuous presence in that land for 3000 years is not an act of hostility.

International law is based on the land belongs to the people and the people belong to the land. Religion is not an issue.

In the Middle East, religion is always an issue. For instance, rylah just proved that Shariah Law is accepted in the Charters of the Palestinians.

 

[Eloy]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish. ..

You have been corrected many times about your false claim that the European Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century to set up their own country were indigenous to the Middle East.

 

[Eloy]

International law is based on the land belongs to the people and the people belong to the land. Religion is not an issue.

Indigeneity in international law is specifically based on a people's cultural identity and NOT on possession. If you choose possession over culture you are going with option number 2 and you lose.

The culture of the Jews who migrated to the Middle East in the last century was European.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish. ..

You have been corrected many times about your false claim that the European Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century to set up their own country were indigenous to the Middle East.

How can you know that for sure? I am a Kohen (from the priestly class of Judaism), and we are supposed to have a unique gene. If I take a DNA test and report back to you, would you accept the results?

 

[Shusha]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish. ..

You have been corrected many times about your false claim that the European Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century to set up their own country were indigenous to the Middle East.

So you are also going with option 2 -- people removed from the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing have no further rights to the land, because they have no ties to the land, despite the obvious cultural connection.

 

[Eloy]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish. ..

You have been corrected many times about your false claim that the European Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century to set up their own country were indigenous to the Middle East.

How can you know that for sure? I am a Kohen (from the priestly class of Judaism), and we are supposed to have a unique gene. If I take a DNA test and report back to you, would you accept the results?

Oh please! Let's not get into defining people by DNA. In the last century German Jews were told they were not German or even Aryan. Racism has caused enough suffering in our world and it is bogus to define people according to DNA. Europeans have turned their backs to this awful dogma.

 

[Shusha]

International law is based on the land belongs to the people and the people belong to the land. Religion is not an issue.

Indigeneity in international law is specifically based on a people's cultural identity and NOT on possession. If you choose possession over culture you are going with option number 2 and you lose.

The culture of the Jews who migrated to the Middle East in the last century was European.

Sure. And the culture of all the "Palestinians" living in their diaspora is the culture of their residency. They are no longer "Palestinians".

 

[Eloy]

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason ... is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

It doesn't work what way? You have no possible way to win this argument. The Jewish people, without doubt, originated on that land and are an indigenous peoples on that land. To dispute that is just foolish. ..

You have been corrected many times about your false claim that the European Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century to set up their own country were indigenous to the Middle East.

So you are also going with option 2 -- people removed from the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing have no further rights to the land, because they have no ties to the land, despite the obvious cultural connection.

The people who were gassed in Auschwitz-Birkenau are making no claims to land in the Middle East. Wanting Jews to get out of Europe in the last century was the First Solution to the Jewish Question. It was wrong then and it is indefensible now.

 

[Shusha]

The people who were gassed in Auschwitz-Birkenau are making no claims to land ...

Funny thing that. That people who are gassed in ovens, and all their descendants, make no claims. No shit. CAN make no claims. Have been erased. They and all their descendants. Have had their voices taken from the world. How would the world have been different with 20 million more Jews in it?

What the hell point are you trying to make here? That the survivors of a people who have been nearly successfully erased through genocide should have no say in the world?

That people who have been ethnically cleansed from their ancestral and historical lands should be actively prevented from returning? Or from even being recognized as having been from there? Or from even being recognized as a people?

Why is the existence of the Jewish people and where they happen to be present a QUESTION? A capital letters, "Jewish Question" question?

Why does the existence of the Jewish people require a SOLUTION? A capital letters, "Jewish Solution" solution?

The very language that frames this debate is wrong and ugly. Is there a Spanish Question? A Japanese Question? A Cree Question? A Kurdish Question? Is there a Spanish Solution? A Japanese Solution? A Cree Solution? A Kurdish Solution?

 

[montelatici]

What is wrong and ugly is your support for the colonization of the area and eviction of the native people of Palestine by European colonists. It was a criminal act.

 

[Eloy]

The people who were gassed in Auschwitz-Birkenau are making no claims to land ...

Funny thing that. That people who are gassed in ovens, and all their descendants, make no claims. No shit. CAN make no claims. Have been erased. They and all their descendants. Have had their voices taken from the world. How would the world have been different with 20 million more Jews in it?

What the hell point are you trying to make here? That the survivors of a people who have been nearly successfully erased through genocide should have no say in the world?

That people who have been ethnically cleansed from their ancestral and historical lands should be actively prevented from returning? Or from even being recognized as having been from there? Or from even being recognized as a people?

Why is the existence of the Jewish people and where they happen to be present a QUESTION? A capital letters, "Jewish Question" question?

Why does the existence of the Jewish people require a SOLUTION? A capital letters, "Jewish Solution" solution?

The very language that frames this debate is wrong and ugly. Is there a Spanish Question? A Japanese Question? A Cree Question? A Kurdish Question? Is there a Spanish Solution? A Japanese Solution? A Cree Solution? A Kurdish Solution?

You miss the point and honestly I doubt you can understand the truth of the matter but I could try.
The people who were gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau and shot by Einsatzgruppe because they were Jews had been living in shtetls in Poland, Ukraine, and other parts of Eastern Europe. Some were transported from Hungary, France, and Western European countries. They were all settled. In the capitals of Vienna and Berlin, and cosmopolitan cities throughout Europe, Jews were teachers, doctors, lawyers, composers, and scientists. Typically, these Jews wanted to stay in their home countries, making livings, contributing to art and culture, and, yes, even in finance and banking. They were Europeans, no question.

The Nazis and a small number of discontented Zionists wanted the Jews out of Europe. The Nazis questioned whether Jews were Europeans and these are the men who saw the presence of Jews and how to deal with it as a pressing question of racial hygiene. The First Solution was to transport them to Palestine. Zionists agreed to this plan. Out of sight and out of mind. Problem solved.

The war intervened and Eichmann's Department in the SS had to go to Plan B, the Second Solution to the Question of how to deal with European Jews was to concentrate them into Ghettos in Poland and elsewhere. In the end, the third and Final Solution of the Jewish Question was the destruction of European Jewry in death camps. Jews who claim that European Jews were not truly Europeans think like the Nazis and they betray the innocent victims of the Final Solution when they cite them as an example of those who wanted to live in the Middle East and leave their homelands in European countries where all they wanted to do was to live in peace.

So, in the name of all that is decent, please stop once and for all suggesting that Jews are different from their countrymen and women in Europe and elsewhere and among whom they belong. Quit doing Hitler's work for his ghost that stalks the lands where racial and cultural hate poisons the soil soaked in the blood of the innocent.

 

[Correll]

J Street is a left-leaning Jewish lobby group for Israel, here in America. They are a pro-two-state-solution lobby, and they are often critical of the current Israeli government. Many Jews in America consider them to be traitors. So, would you be in favor of someone from that group being a mediator for the Middle East peace process? Or do you want someone like Tinmore or monte who wants the State of Israel to be destroyed?

No, I believe an American Jewish group would be conflicted between its already stated position and those of the Israeli government. It would be better for Israel to end the occupation/blockade and begin to have friendly relations with its nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. If a mediator is needed, the United Nations could help.

The Palestinians want to destroy Israel. Mediation is not going to solve that.

Haven't you guys burned out that talking point yet?

Ignoring the hostile intent of one of the parties in not a rational act.

Zionist colonization is the first hostility.

a. An interesting claim. YOu consider illegal immigration to be an Act of War?

b. And that was quite some time ago. How long they going to hold onto that?

 

[Correll]

Zionist colonization is the first hostility.

The presence of Jewish people on the historical, ancestral, cultural and religious homeland of the Jewish people is not an act of hostility. Neither is the desire for Jewish self-determination and self-government an act of hostility. (Just as neither of those things is an act of hostility when committed by Arabs).

The first act of hostility was the Arab antagonism toward Jewish rights to be present in their homeland and to have self-determination in that homeland.

It does not work that way. Claiming other people's land for any reason, even a spurious one such as a biblical right, is illegal and those who act on it are trouble-makers.

Revanchism, especially when dealing with generations old border changes, is the BEST way to ensure war and bloodshed, over and over again.


Would you support Trump invading Panama to reclaim the Canal Zone? THat was MUCH more recent that the foundation of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

So, in the name of all that is decent, please stop once and for all suggesting that Jews are different from their countrymen and women in Europe and elsewhere and among whom they belong. Quit doing Hitler's work for his ghost that stalks the lands where racial and cultural hate poisons the soil soaked in the blood of the innocent.

Whoa. Stop and think for just a minute. The implications of your post are disgusting.

You are asserting because I believe the Jewish people have a homeland I am doing Hitler's work? Full pause for effect here.

The HORROR! How very HITLERESQUE of me to say that the Jewish people, like all indigenous peoples have the right to a homeland. To self-determination. To sovereignty.

You are equating my assertion of equal rights for the Jewish people with Hitler's wish to exterminate the Jewish people as though they were not only related, but equivalent.


So let's be really, really clear about my response to your disgusting suggestion:

The Jewish people are fully permitted by any stretch of humanitarian law, to be present anywhere in the world, with full expectations of not being persecuted, oppressed, ghettoized, pogromed, murdered, killed, cleansed or genocided. Got that? It doesn't matter if the Jewish people adopt the local culture or maintain their own culture. NOTHING that the Jewish people do or do not do, think or do not think and be or do not be legitimizes their persecution, oppression, ghettoization, cleansing or genocide.

No conversation about the Jewish homeland changes that. And its disgusting that you should bring this into the conversation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, I believe an American Jewish group would be conflicted between its already stated position and those of the Israeli government. It would be better for Israel to end the occupation/blockade and begin to have friendly relations with its nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. If a mediator is needed, the United Nations could help.

The Palestinians want to destroy Israel. Mediation is not going to solve that.

Haven't you guys burned out that talking point yet?

Ignoring the hostile intent of one of the parties in not a rational act.

Zionist colonization is the first hostility.

a. An interesting claim. YOu consider illegal immigration to be an Act of War?

b. And that was quite some time ago. How long they going to hold onto that?

Until the problem is addressed.

 

[Correll]

The Palestinians want to destroy Israel. Mediation is not going to solve that.

Haven't you guys burned out that talking point yet?

Ignoring the hostile intent of one of the parties in not a rational act.

Zionist colonization is the first hostility.

a. An interesting claim. YOu consider illegal immigration to be an Act of War?

b. And that was quite some time ago. How long they going to hold onto that?

Until the problem is addressed.

The problem has been addressed countless times.


By Addressed, I assume you mean, given everything they want?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Haven't you guys burned out that talking point yet?

Ignoring the hostile intent of one of the parties in not a rational act.

Zionist colonization is the first hostility.

a. An interesting claim. YOu consider illegal immigration to be an Act of War?

b. And that was quite some time ago. How long they going to hold onto that?

Until the problem is addressed.

The problem has been addressed countless times.


By Addressed, I assume you mean, given everything they want?

The Palestinians want all of Palestine.

Why should anyone have a problem with that?

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians want all of Palestine.

Why should anyone have a problem with that?

Because what you really mean that the Arabs demand sovereignty over all of Palestine and that the Jewish people should be specifically excluded from having sovereignty or self-determination or self-government over even a small portion of the territory.