trump would abandon NATO if re-elected

[Oddball]

Poootin Humper and trump Humper all rolled into one.

Amusing, coming from a Cheney bootlicker.

 

[elektra]

trump doesn't care about NATO. He said so himself, many times. He knows if he abandons NATO, Putin would have a easy road to take back the old Soviet countries, and more.

trump is the most dangerous man in the world right now. He has assembled a cult that is will to do anything he asks, including acts of violence and intimidation. He is the danger from within that our founding fathers warned us about.

If NATO won't defend Europe, NATO which is the Europeans, if Europe won't defend Europe why should we?

If Trump is so dangerous how is it the democrats get away with prosecuting trump

How is it that the news can constantly denigrate trump.

The most dangerous man that can't intimidate anybody?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Russia is still there… still aggressive… and massively nuclear armed

So, what's the purpose of adding these countries? It looks like to increase the chances of Article 5 of NATO being invoked and the US fighting Russia directly instead of just providing weapons.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

So, what's the purpose of adding these countries? It looks like to increase the chances of Article 5 of NATO being invoked and the US fighting Russia directly instead of just providing weapons.

Which countries? East Germany? the Baltic Countries? Poland? Sweden? Finland? Have we forced any countries to join? Has Europe forced any countries to.join the EU? They joined because they felt fear of Russia and because they wanted to progress economically. Russia is a backward xenophobic dictatorial mafia state that is consciously trying to disrupt Western democracies. It is seeking help from Iran, North Korea, and China. Wake up!

 

[Jarlaxle]

No, NATO needs to be junked altogether.

Should have happened 30 years ago.

Exactly wrong...
Russia is America's neighbor. Russia is less than 60 miles from the border.
Not even a minute at 60mph.

Unless you are up for giving Alaska away to Russia and California no longer has so much as a drop of petroleum in it overnight. You ready for that? Nevermind the millions of Americans in Alaska who provide all sorts of resources to the lower 48.

That is the stupidest thing ever posted on the internet.

 

[JohnDB]

That is the stupidest thing ever posted on the ininternet.

People in glass houses...
Especially ones that have nothing but ad-hominem attacks.

 

[Doc7505]

No he wouldn't. He'd just make them pay their fair share. Much of NATO is all about defending Europe, not the US, and yet they expect us to foot most of the bill.

~~~~~~~~
Funny... Democrats continuously talk about taxpayers paying their fair share except when it comes to supporting our former enemies, and Islamic belligerent nations.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Which countries? East Germany? the Baltic Countries? Poland? Sweden? Finland? Have we forced any countries to join? Has Europe forced any countries to.join the EU? They joined because they felt fear of Russia and because they wanted to progress economically. Russia is a backward xenophobic dictatorial mafia state that is consciously trying to disrupt Western democracies. It is seeking help from Iran, North Korea, and China. Wake up!

Where in my statement did I say that they were forced to become a member of NATO? Way to build and knock down that strawman. There's debate that the US and Russia discussed after the German unification that an informal condition was agreed that NATO wouldn't expand beyond the united Germany. BTW, since NATO is a military alliance, not quite sure how economics play a role, unless they're getting a lot of funding for being a member. That would make no sense without an economic treaty like the European Union. I can see those countries wanting help from Russia, but has Iran and North Korea done to those countries to be running to NATO to seek help?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Where in my statement did I say that they were forced to become a member of NATO? Way to build and knock down that strawman. There's debate that the US and Russia discussed after the German unification that an informal condition was agreed that NATO wouldn't expand beyond the united Germany. BTW, since NATO is a military alliance, not quite sure how economics play a role, unless they're getting a lot of funding for being a member. That would make no sense without an economic treaty like the European Union. I can see those countries wanting help from Russia, but has Iran and North Korea done to those countries to be running to NATO to seek help?

What Iran and North Korea have done is supply shells and drones and weapons Putin needs to continue his invasion of sovereign Ukraine!

Ukraine has long sought to join the European Union and one of the motivations for Maidan was precisely the pro-Russian president’s sudden personal reversal of popular expectations on related economic trade agreements. By the way as early as 2003 Ukraine’s President Kuchmer had declared the country should aim to join NATO. The oral discussions between Western leaders and Russian leaders about NATO when Germany was re-uniting and the Soviet Union was collapsing were never part of any official treaty, and were discussed in a period when Russia itself was considering joining or taking part in a new European-Russian security arrangement. These discussions took place before other Eastern European ex-“Warsaw Pact” countries could weigh in with their own arguments and desires.

Of course Gorbachev was unhappy, and later Putin was furious when Western promises not to expand were subsequently rescinded, with the admission in several waves of Eastern European countries into NATO.

I never said you said the ex-Warsaw Pact countries like Poland and the Baltic States were forced to join NATO, but just pointed out they wanted to join, and their opinions were not something easily ignored by the West as Russia’s evolution into a corrupt capitalist oligarchy / mafia / siloviki state headed by the ex-KGB Putin dictatorship developed. I myself for years was against that NATO expansion, and even against the “Maidan Revolution.” But in my view Putin’s invasion of Feb. 2022 made all that moot.

 

[JWBooth]

Should have happened 30 years ago.

That is the stupidest thing ever posted on the internet.

Dude, you’ve been on these boards for over a decade, you’re giving JDB too much credit.
”Lair” ~ Truthmatters

 

[Lesh]

So, what's the purpose of adding these countries? It looks like to increase the chances of Article 5 of NATO being invoked and the US fighting Russia directly instead of just providing weapons.

Article 5 holds Pootler in check

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

~~~~~~
Love the Monty Python comedy, however, it does not pertain to what NATO is doing.
Since the end of WWII, America has funded the resurgence of Europe economy and built it's forces i.e., NATO.
NATO is just a paper tiger and even Russia today in it's weakened state is a threat to Europe despite the trillions of dollars invested by the U.S. and very little by the BAYO nations up to now.

The Marshall Plan and the Cold War | Harry S. Truman

www.trumanlibrary.gov

**********

MSN

www.msn.com

The “Black Knight” analogy is not supposed to pertain to NATO, but very well captures the ignorance of fools like CrusaderFrank and EvilCat Breath who want the U.S. to withdraw from NATO and Europe (and even adopt the John Birch Society slogan of leaving the UN). Their head-in-the-sand go-it-alone military & political strategy would abandon our friends, help our enemies, and quickly demolish our standing in the world and encourage dictatorships Russia and China to abuse their neighbors.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, NATO’s existence both contained Russia’s further expansion after WWII and contributed to the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Russia itself. It is now a lot more than a “paper tiger” in Europe, but unfortunately the European Community in general is still not strong or united enough to stand as a powerful independent force for liberal democratic capitalism on its own. It suffers from serious internal threats — as exist in the U.S. too.

If you look at the skit again you can see that while it certainly can not apply to NATO, the “Black Knight” philosophy does indeed satirically capture the ignorant, isolationist, “I’ll cut off my nose to spite my face” philosophy of people like CrusaderFrank and EvilCat Breath.



P.S. Your link to a Marshall Plan article proves my point that American engagement in the world can be very helpful. Or do you think we should have done nothing after WWII to help Western Europe, and instead allowed STALIN to pick off the countries there one by one?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The “Black Knight” analogy is not supposed to pertain to NATO, but very well captures the ignorance of fools like CrusaderFrank and EvilCat Breath who want the U.S. to withdraw from NATO and Europe (and even adopt the John Birch Society slogan of leaving the UN). Their head-in-the-sand go-it-alone military & political strategy would abandon our friends, help our enemies, and quickly demolish our standing in the world and encourage dictatorships Russia and China to abuse their neighbors.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, NATO’s existence both contained Russia’s further expansion after WWII and contributed to the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Russia itself. It is now much more than a “paper tiger” in Europe, but unfortunately it still is not strong enough to stand as a powerful independent force for liberal democratic capitalism independent of the U.S. It also suffers from serious internal threats, as exist in the U.S. too.

If you look at the skit again you can see that while it certainly can not apply to NATO, the “Black Knight” philosophy does indeed satirically capture the ignorant, isolationist, “I’ll cut off my nose to spite my face” philosophy of people like CrusaderFrank and EvilCat Breath.



P.S. Your link to a Marshall Plan article proves my point that American engagement in the world can be very helpful. Unless you think we should have done nothing after WWII to help Western Europe, and instead allowed STALIN to pick off the countries there one by one?

NATO is useless vestige of a bygone era. The USSR is no more and Russia is only a threat when you decide to poke them by having Nazis kill Russians in Donbass and put Lugar bioweapon labs on their doorstep. Best thing the USA can do is leave Europe to their own devices.

Isolationism is exactly what the USA need right now. We have to, literally, mend our fences at home

 

[sartre play]

NATO, LIKE IT OR NOT, Is it smart to abandon it??

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

NATO is useless vestige of a bygone era. The USSR is no more and Russia is only a threat when you decide to poke them by having Nazis kill Russians in Donbass and put Lugar bioweapon labs on their doorstep. Best thing the USA can do is leave Europe to their own devices.
Isolationism is exactly what the USA need right now. We have to, literally, mend our fences at home

As always you ignorantly call pro-Western Ukrainians “Nazis” and defend Putin’s xenophobic near-fascist, openly anti-democracy “Great Russia” petro-state … as a poor victim “forced” to invade sovereign Ukraine — unleashing major war for the first time in Europe since WWII.

I even have to provide you the very word to describe your own philosophy — isolationism — which you don’t seem to have any real understanding of. You do not even try to explain how it can work in the modern world — which is “smaller” and far more interconnected than ever before, with international conflicts and contradictions as great or greater than before WWI.

What’s more, you MAGA types don’t really believe in your own “isolationist” philosophy, as your ultra-narrow supposedly “patriotic” attacks on the “OBiden” Administration for being “weak” on confronting Iran, weak in supporting Israel, weak in opposing Putin (!) and weak in supposedly being a lackey of China, demonstrate fully.

Some “isolationists” would even love to “isolate” themselves away from their fellow citizens. They are free to do that in this great country, taking their guns and families to very rural areas far from modern civilization … assuming their wives approve!

You are incoherent inheritors — pathetic, reactionary and inconsistent inheritors — of Republican politics over more than a century. Republican — like Democratic — foreign policy has gone through many stages, and found expression in many distinct individual voices.

Republicans largely adopted “isolationism” before & after WWI (even as progressive Republican Teddy Roosevelt pushed for a world-class navy and acted as a one-man advertisement for foreign engagement/adventurism). After WWII ended with the U.S. as de facto world hegemon, Republicans mostly pushed Cold War extremism and then “evil axis” imperial sloganeering. Even after the collapse of the Soviet Union Republicans (with much Democratic support) adopted Cheney/Bush/Rumsfield neo-con imperial adventurism in the Near & Middle East.

But Republicans have probably never been so blind, reactionary and incoherent as MAGA foreign politics has become today, when it depends entirely on the whims of one demented power-obsessed individual, whose megalomania & “friendship” with dictators can take us in almost any direction.

I have often been accused of “isolationism” myself, and sometimes republish articles from

“Responsible Statecraft … [an] online magazine of the Quincy Institute [that] publishes … analysis, opinion, and news to promote a positive, non-partisan vision of U.S. foreign policy and critique the ideologies and interests that have mired the United States in counterproductive and endless wars and made the world less secure.”

But it is one thing to oppose overly aggressive and even adventurist policy abroad, and another to call for isolationism as a general policy, especially in the case of the Russian invasion of European Ukraine.

By the way, the two major parties’ policies on the Southern border, right or wrong, are not relevant here, anymore than their policy on race (or segregation) would be. When the U.S. followed firm isolationist foreign policies before WWI, it had a friendly immigrant policy, and the total % of foreign born was close to present levels. Parenthetically, the U.S. allowed the KKK and Jim Crow to flourish at home in that early isolationist period. Clearly our country was not then very interested in “fixing its problems at home.”

Your complaints on foreign policy, incoherent and inconsistent, are thoroughly hypocritical when you pretend to be more “patriotic” than liberals. You capitulate to and even repeat the arguments of bloody dictators abroad.

The key thing is that the world has made isolationism impossible and ridiculous as policy for a major world power. One must discriminate carefully, distinguish soberly between cases when we are defending our allies or ourselves or democratic interests against real foreign aggression, and when U.S. domestic interests have misled us to act as imperialists or adventurists ourselves, invading and occupying other countries.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

As always you ignorantly call pro-Western Ukrainians “Nazis” and defend Putin’s xenophobic near-fascist, openly anti-democracy “Great Russia” petro-state … as a poor victim “forced” to invade sovereign Ukraine — unleashing major war for the first time in Europe since WWII.

I even have to provide you the very word to describe your own philosophy — isolationism — which you don’t seem to have any real understanding of. You do not even try to explain how it can work in the modern world — which is “smaller” and far more interconnected than ever before, with international conflicts and contradictions as great or greater than before WWI.

What’s more, you MAGA types don’t really believe in your own “isolationist” philosophy, as your ultra-narrow supposedly “patriotic” attacks on the “OBiden” Administration for being “weak” on confronting Iran, weak in supporting Israel, weak in opposing Putin (!) and weak in supposedly being a lackey of China, demonstrate fully.

Some “isolationists” would even love to “isolate” themselves away from their fellow citizens. They are free to do that in this great country, taking their guns and families to very rural areas far from modern civilization … assuming their wives approve!

You are incoherent inheritors — pathetic, reactionary and inconsistent inheritors — of Republican politics over more than a century. Republican — like Democratic — foreign policy has gone through many stages, and found expression in many distinct individual voices.

Republicans largely adopted “isolationism” before & after WWI (even as progressive Republican Teddy Roosevelt pushed for a world-class navy and acted as a one-man advertisement for foreign engagement/adventurism). After WWII ended with the U.S. as de facto world hegemon, Republicans mostly pushed Cold War extremism and then “evil axis” imperial sloganeering. Even after the collapse of the Soviet Union Republicans (with much Democratic support) adopted Cheney/Bush/Rumsfield neo-con imperial adventurism in the Near & Middle East.

But Republicans have probably never been so blind, reactionary and incoherent as MAGA foreign politics has become today, when it depends entirely on the whims of one demented power-obsessed individual, whose megalomania & “friendship” with dictators can take us in almost any direction.

I have often been accused of “isolationism” myself, and sometimes republish articles from



But it is one thing to oppose overly aggressive and even adventurist policy abroad, and another to call for isolationism as a general policy, especially in the case of the Russian invasion of European Ukraine.

By the way, the two major parties’ policies on the Southern border, right or wrong, are not relevant here, anymore than their policy on race (or segregation) would be. When the U.S. followed firm isolationist foreign policies before WWI, it had a friendly immigrant policy, and the total % of foreign born was close to present levels. Parenthetically, the U.S. allowed the KKK and Jim Crow to flourish at home in that early isolationist period. Clearly our country was not then very interested in “fixing its problems at home.”

Your complaints on foreign policy, incoherent and inconsistent, are thoroughly hypocritical when you pretend to be more “patriotic” than liberals. You capitulate to and even repeat the arguments of bloody dictators abroad.

The key thing is that the world has made isolationism impossible and ridiculous as policy for a major world power. One must discriminate carefully, distinguish soberly between cases when we are defending our allies or ourselves or democratic interests against real foreign aggression, and when U.S. domestic interests have misled us to act as imperialists or adventurists ourselves, invading and occupying other countries.

You say "isolationism" as if that's a bad thing, it's not! We had no business at all goaded Ukraine into poking Russia past their patience and warnings. The world would be so much better off without our misadventures all over the world.

It's sad you have no retort other than "MAGA" and "Bad Orange Man".

We're out of ammo, out of money and just out of good reason to get involved any more

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

Trump Will Abandon NATO

If reelected, he would end our commitment to the European alliance, reshaping the international order and hobbling American influence in the world.

www.theatlantic.com

trump doesn't care about NATO. He said so himself, many times. He knows if he abandons NATO, Putin would have a easy road to take back the old Soviet countries, and more. trump is the most dangerous man in the world right now. He has assembled a cult that is will to do anything he asks, including acts of violence and intimidation. He is the danger from within that our founding fathers warned us about.

I do not believe Mr. Trump (or his Cult45) is dangerous.

 

[kyzr]

Here is my solution to Ukraine:
1. 2014 Borders, or where the battle-lines are right now.
2. Ukraine gets into NATO

The End. (the US is NOT going to fund an endless war. The Budapest Memorandum says we/NATO will guarantee Ukraine's security, so let them into NATO. Putti-Poo isn't stupid enough to start a war with NATO.

 

[kyzr]

I do not believe Mr. Trump (or his Cult45) is dangerous.

...worst "insurrection" ever...

 

[kyzr]

NATO, LIKE IT OR NOT, Is it smart to abandon it??

Trump made NATO stronger. No one wants to start a war with a NATO country.

Secretary General thanks President Trump for his commitment to NATO

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg thanked US President Donald Trump for his strong leadership and commitment to the Alliance in a meeting at the White House on Thursday (14 November 2019). Mr. Stoltenberg highlighted rising defence investment across European Allies and Canada, amounting to...

www.nato.int