Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

[hadit]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

He will be remembered as the worst president in history.

Cling to that, it might help. Every president increases in popularity as time passes.

 

[Crepitus]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

He will be remembered as the worst president in history.

Cling to that, it might help. Every president increases in popularity as time passes.

Yeah, tRump will break that traditional trend as well.

 

[flack]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

not at all. raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour will generate around nine times more in federal income tax revenue than our current minimum wage does now.

Do you care to prove that with some actual data?

I used California for State information.

Income Tax Calculator - USA - Salary After Taxes

neuvoo™ 【 Online Salary and Tax Calculator 】 provides your income after tax if you work in USA. We calculate how much your payroll will be after tax deductions in any region. Find your net pay for any salary. Our data is based on 2020 tax tables from USA

neuvoo.com

you do realize you have to show your work don't you?

This is the real world

Taxes are progressive.

The current minimum wage rate generates around 194 dollars in federal income tax revenue. A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates around 1852 dollars in federal income tax revenue; around nine times more in federal income tax revenue.

no it doesn't.

People making Federal MW pay no income tax

People making 15 an hour pay 58 dollars in federal income tax

The tax paid by anyone making 15 or more an hour now does not change so there is no way in hell you get a 900% revenue increase

What information are you using? Show your work. I gave you a website that calculates tax information based on wage rate.

and you didn't show how you got a 900% revenue increase

Income Tax Calculator and Refund Estimator 2025 - NerdWallet

Estimate your federal refund or taxes due using our free income tax calculator. Enter your income, age and filing status to get started.

www.nerdwallet.com

punch in 31200 annual salary claiming 1 dependent and the federal income tax for that person is 58 dollars a year

I used it for 30k with no dependents and got this amount:

Estimated federal taxes $1,914

Claim 1 dependent because you will get a refund if you don't.

You didn't figure that in did you?

I am keeping it simple. I use individual metrics. Means testing is more expensive.

you still have to account for the refund.

a person making 31200 annually ( $15 an hour) has a federal income tax liability of $58 if more is taken out of his paycheck in a year then he gets a refund

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

not at all. raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour will generate around nine times more in federal income tax revenue than our current minimum wage does now.

And what will you do with those laid off because their work is no longer worth minimum wage? And, of course, you ignore the ripple effect of doubling the MW, which would be huge. You have to ignore it or your fantasy would fall apart.

More federal income tax revenue means we can afford unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.

Not even going down that rabbit hole with you. I've been there, done that, and won the argument.

No, you haven't. UC engenders a multiplier of two or more while means tested welfare only does around point eight (.8) and costs more.

That's because they're different things. UC is an insurance program for laid off workers while welfare is not, and you want to change UC into welfare. You refuse to acknowledge that you would thus destroy any multiplier effect that you so cherish. Like I said, I've been there with you multiple times and won every time. I don't need to do it again.

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

And you think that over half the workforce getting raises won't have any impact on the labor market? Remember, 60%+ of the workforce earns $20/hr or less. All of them are going to either get a raise because they currently earn less then $15/hr or demand one because they don't want to go from making well over MW to making the same as some guy who just walked in off the street, or they'll quit. No, the only way you safely get to $15/hr is to raise it slowly enough that by the time you get there, the usual suspects (that's you) will be demanding $25/hr. Basically, you're looking to wreck the economy attempting to squeeze a few more dollars out of the working poor to feed the monster federal government.

Wages have not been meeting or beating inflation on an Institutional basis for Labor as the least wealthy in our republic. That creates more problems and increases the Cost of Government because means tested social services are expensive to administer.

Options:

1. Beat inflation. That means less government borrowing and spending, along with QE, which in turn means wilder swings in the economy.
2. Raise the actual value of labor. That means fewer MW jobs and more jobs requiring skills, training, and education.

Arbitrarily raising the MW in a vain attempt to make wages keep pace with inflation is a losing game because that action drives inflation and you eventually end up with worthless currency. Right now, you're advocating cutting the purchasing power of the dollar in half when it comes to labor. What used to buy an hour of labor will, in your fantasy, buy 1/2 hour.

No longer true in modern times. Inflation from wages is not that much of an issue with supply side economics. Increasing productivity solves for that.

Increasing productivity raises the actual value of labor, which is my option 2. It does, however, mean fewer low or no skilled jobs for teenagers trying to break into the job market.

You mean no "cheap manual labor jobs". Our economy is progressing with emerging technologies.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

 

[rightwinger]

Trump inherited a solid economy with dropping unemployment.

He is leaving with an economy in shambles

 

[rightwinger]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

More whining from the libbers

FACT

 

[danielpalos]

That's because they're different things. UC is an insurance program for laid off workers while welfare is not, and you want to change UC into welfare. You refuse to acknowledge that you would thus destroy any multiplier effect that you so cherish. Like I said, I've been there with you multiple times and won every time. I don't need to do it again.

Not at all. You refuse to acknowledge that solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner creates that form of automatically stabilizing upward pressure on wages on an Institutional basis.

 

[jbrownson0831]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

More whining from the libbers

FACT

Baloney

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

And you think that over half the workforce getting raises won't have any impact on the labor market? Remember, 60%+ of the workforce earns $20/hr or less. All of them are going to either get a raise because they currently earn less then $15/hr or demand one because they don't want to go from making well over MW to making the same as some guy who just walked in off the street, or they'll quit. No, the only way you safely get to $15/hr is to raise it slowly enough that by the time you get there, the usual suspects (that's you) will be demanding $25/hr. Basically, you're looking to wreck the economy attempting to squeeze a few more dollars out of the working poor to feed the monster federal government.

Wages have not been meeting or beating inflation on an Institutional basis for Labor as the least wealthy in our republic. That creates more problems and increases the Cost of Government because means tested social services are expensive to administer.

Options:

1. Beat inflation. That means less government borrowing and spending, along with QE, which in turn means wilder swings in the economy.
2. Raise the actual value of labor. That means fewer MW jobs and more jobs requiring skills, training, and education.

Arbitrarily raising the MW in a vain attempt to make wages keep pace with inflation is a losing game because that action drives inflation and you eventually end up with worthless currency. Right now, you're advocating cutting the purchasing power of the dollar in half when it comes to labor. What used to buy an hour of labor will, in your fantasy, buy 1/2 hour.

No longer true in modern times. Inflation from wages is not that much of an issue with supply side economics. Increasing productivity solves for that.

Increasing productivity raises the actual value of labor, which is my option 2. It does, however, mean fewer low or no skilled jobs for teenagers trying to break into the job market.

You mean no "cheap manual labor jobs". Our economy is progressing with emerging technologies.

I mean fewer cheap manual labor jobs, because there will always be some of them around, just not as many. The kind of jobs teenagers take to generate a work history, skills and references to get them into better paying jobs. Bump the MW to far too fast and you cut them off and they're 25 years old before they can catch a break and get a job.

 

[hadit]

That's because they're different things. UC is an insurance program for laid off workers while welfare is not, and you want to change UC into welfare. You refuse to acknowledge that you would thus destroy any multiplier effect that you so cherish. Like I said, I've been there with you multiple times and won every time. I don't need to do it again.

Not at all. You refuse to acknowledge that solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner creates that form of automatically stabilizing upward pressure on wages on an Institutional basis.

Mere blargle from you. You're trying the same crap that I destroyed many times already.

 

[danielpalos]

You're making my point. Raising the MW to match inflation is a losing game,

How did you reach your conclusion. Inflation happens regardless; it is up to the private sector to reoptimize for the new equilibrium. Supply side economics, anyone?

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

Okay, let's get this straight. You want to generate more tax revenue, so your solution is to REDUCE tax revenue to pay for it?

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

And you think that over half the workforce getting raises won't have any impact on the labor market? Remember, 60%+ of the workforce earns $20/hr or less. All of them are going to either get a raise because they currently earn less then $15/hr or demand one because they don't want to go from making well over MW to making the same as some guy who just walked in off the street, or they'll quit. No, the only way you safely get to $15/hr is to raise it slowly enough that by the time you get there, the usual suspects (that's you) will be demanding $25/hr. Basically, you're looking to wreck the economy attempting to squeeze a few more dollars out of the working poor to feed the monster federal government.

Wages have not been meeting or beating inflation on an Institutional basis for Labor as the least wealthy in our republic. That creates more problems and increases the Cost of Government because means tested social services are expensive to administer.

Options:

1. Beat inflation. That means less government borrowing and spending, along with QE, which in turn means wilder swings in the economy.
2. Raise the actual value of labor. That means fewer MW jobs and more jobs requiring skills, training, and education.

Arbitrarily raising the MW in a vain attempt to make wages keep pace with inflation is a losing game because that action drives inflation and you eventually end up with worthless currency. Right now, you're advocating cutting the purchasing power of the dollar in half when it comes to labor. What used to buy an hour of labor will, in your fantasy, buy 1/2 hour.

No longer true in modern times. Inflation from wages is not that much of an issue with supply side economics. Increasing productivity solves for that.

Increasing productivity raises the actual value of labor, which is my option 2. It does, however, mean fewer low or no skilled jobs for teenagers trying to break into the job market.

You mean no "cheap manual labor jobs". Our economy is progressing with emerging technologies.

I mean fewer cheap manual labor jobs, because there will always be some of them around, just not as many. The kind of jobs teenagers take to generate a work history, skills and references to get them into better paying jobs. Bump the MW to far too fast and you cut them off and they're 25 years old before they can catch a break and get a job.

Kids should stay in school longer anyway. UC can make that happen and automatically stabilize our economy in the process. All true free market capitalism offers is nothing but boom and bust.

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

Okay, let's get this straight. You want to generate more tax revenue, so your solution is to REDUCE tax revenue to pay for it?

A one time cost of living adjustment.

 

[hadit]

You're making my point. Raising the MW to match inflation is a losing game,

How did you reach your conclusion. Inflation happens regardless; it is up to the private sector to reoptimize for the new equilibrium. Supply side economics, anyone?

I reach my conclusion from history. Where did the MW start, where is it today and where do the usual suspects want it to go tomorrow?

And, you have refused to honestly answer the question, which is pertinent to what we're talking about. Why not just raise the MW to $100/hr right now and solve poverty altogether? Answer that.

 

[flack]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Yes