Trump wants to eliminate income tax, but replace it with tariffs on imported goods.

[Missourian]

You think I said best economy ever?! Haha. When?

Democrats and Biden are saying it.

Can't have it both ways.

And we aren’t talking about the old plan we are talking about the new one he is proposing

But when we were, you bitched about that.

You (democrats) have zero credibility at this point when it comes to tariffs.

 

[Marener]

Yes it is

China is building artificial islands in open waters and using to claim sovereignty over the entire South China Sea

Its encroaching on the fishing and mineral rights of Viet Nam, the Philippines, Indonesia and Japan

And using its navy to bully its weaker neighbors

Okay. When does the army march over the border?

 

[candycorn]

I'll wait to see the actual plan.

But, there weren't the same technologies in 1930.

In 1952 my grandfather bought a Ford 9N tractor and he, my dad and my uncles reworked the farm implements from horse drawn to tractor pulled. I still use the tractor today.


I'm sure there will be trade-offs, but this will create incentives for small companies in the US to fill the gaps.

In 1930 we were no the engine that turned the world economy.

What might be tough on us will break everyone else.

What does China do when there is nowhere to export to?

Gee, the World’s population is like 7B. We have about 400M here in the US. There is like a billion folks in China. So between our two nations is 1.4B people.

7 Billion minus 1.4 Billion = about 5.6 Billion people they can export their items to.

 

[Missourian]

Its not the technologies. Its the scale. Trump has already proposed abolishing an income tax and replacing it with tariffs.

That's 2.5 TRILLION dollars anually. Or roughly 10% of our total GDP.

We've never done tarriffs within an order of magnitude of that number.

I suspect this is the big ask.

Like the big beautiful wall.

We got bollard fencing in key areas..and we'll get more when Trump is reelected...but no one believes it will be all inclusive, from coast to coast.

And no one believes we'll end income tax.

I'll wait for the actual proposal.

But, I believe he is no the right track.

 

[Mac-7]

Okay. When does the army march over the border?

Sun-szu wrote that the best way to win territory is by using the military fir subversion and intimidation rather than actual warfare

 

[candycorn]

In 2022, the US exported $200 billion worth of goods to China. That would dry out very quickly. Are you ready to pay 150-200% more on everything imported from China? And that is not just finished goods. There are Chinese made components in US manufactured goods as well.

Blanket tariffs are a spectacularly bad idea. But the sound bite of eliminating income tax will reel in the people who don't understand the ramifications. And when elected and he does nothing about it, he'll just blame Congress. Never his fault.

Yeah but that isn’t what MAGA is about...its about “sticking it” to the Chinese. It doesn’t have to make sense; it doesn’t have to be a good idea; it doesn’t even have to work. The momentary high they get from “sticking it” to someone--in this case the illusion that China is going to suffer--is enough.

 

[Marener]

Sun-szu wrote that the best way to win territory is by using the military fir subversion and intimidation rather than actual warfare

Okay dude. Sure. Still trying to figure out how Viet Namese fishing rights affects Americans.

 

[Mac-7]

Okay dude. Sure. Still trying to figure out how Viet Namese fishing rights affects Americans.

It tells you what kind of people we are dealing with

The chinese treat their own people inhumanly

Dont expect better treatment for anyone else they have power over

 

[Skylar]

I suspect this is the big ask.

Like the big beautiful wall.

We got bollard fencing in key areas..and we'll get more when Trump is reelected...but no one believes it will be all inclusive, from coast to coast.

And no one believes we'll end income tax.

I'll wait for the actual proposal.

But, I believe he is no the right track.

See, the fencing in key areas approach to tariffs is entirely plausible. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a total and complete tariff on all imports that effectively doubles the price of all imported goods or commodities.

That's bad for many, many reasons. First, inflationary spikes. Second, the collapse of the import markets, and all the accompanying jobs. Third, the retaliatory tariffs that will crash our export markets. And all the accompanying jobs.

How many? 41 million jobs are trade related. Or roughly 1/3 or our total full time workforce.

We've seen the impact of large scale protective tariffs. It was catastrophic. And this is an order of magnitude more severe. Worse, it won't work.

In a high tariff scenario, people shift to domestic alternatives. Which means fewer imports. Which means fewer tariffs. We'd see a collapse in our tax base, resulting in WILDLY higher deficits. If we raised the tariffs on the remaining fewer imports to break even, 85% to 135% tariffs become 200%. 300%. With even more erosion if not collapse of import markets.

With retaliatory tariffs of similar size against us. And on. And on.

The last time we tried this, it took a decade, a world war and 75 million dead to pull us out of it.

 

[Skylar]

Tariffs help protect US manufacturing

China’s goal is to drive American companies out of business

And if they do, then we don't collect the tariffs.

Using tariffs to replace income tax is spectacularly stupid. If they are effective and diminish the import market, protecting and strengthening US manufacturing.....then we collect fewer tariffs. And our tax base collapses.

 

[Slade3200]

Tariffs help protect US manufacturing

China’s goal is to drive American companies out of business

Tariffs will raise the price of consumer goods. How does that help US manufacturing?

 

[Slade3200]

Democrats and Biden are saying it.

Can't have it both ways

Well your talking to me so how about we stick to things that I say and leave out the strawman

 

[Skylar]

Tariffs will raise the price of consumer goods. How does that help US manufacturing?

It could potentially help US manufacturing by diminishing imports as they're too expensive with 100% tariffs. The problem is always the retaliation. As US manufacturing will have a much harder time selling their products to overseas markets when the nations we have levied tariffs against levy them against us.

The net result is a ball kicking contest. Where we kick them in gibblets. And they turn around and kick us right back.

 

[Slade3200]

But when we were, you bitched about that.

I did? What exactly did I say?

 

[Missourian]

I did? What exactly did I say?

Do you think the search button is broken?

Trump has always gotten his way by strong arm tactics and bleeding people out financially with lawsuits. That stuff may work in the business world but in politics it’s different. There needs to be diplomacy. China can wait Trump out and know that our people are suffering more than them with these tariffs. I’m fine using tariffs for a short time to gain leverage but This 75% ideas is idiotic

Now go fuck yourself.

 

[Missourian]

It could potentially help US manufacturing by diminishing imports as they're too expensive with 100% tariffs. The problem is always the retaliation. As US manufacturing will have a much harder time selling their products to overseas markets when the nations we have levied tariffs against levy them against us.

The net result is a ball kicking contest. Where we kick them in gibblets. And they turn around and kick us right back.

They need us more than we need them.

 

[Skylar]

They need us more than we need them.

We import more than we export. The strength of our markets is our consumption. Tariffs at this scale make import consumption ludicrously expensive. If they can't sell their products here......what do they need us for?

 

[Missourian]

See, the fencing in key areas approach to tariffs is entirely plausible. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a total and complete tariff on all imports that effectively doubles the price of all imported goods or commodities.

That's bad for many, many reasons. First, inflationary spikes. Second, the collapse of the import markets, and all the accompanying jobs. Third, the retaliatory tariffs that will crash our export markets. And all the accompanying jobs.

How many? 41 million jobs are trade related. Or roughly 1/3 or our total full time workforce.

We've seen the impact of large scale protective tariffs. It was catastrophic. And this is an order of magnitude more severe. Worse, it won't work.

In a high tariff scenario, people shift to domestic alternatives. Which means fewer imports. Which means fewer tariffs. We'd see a collapse in our tax base, resulting in WILDLY higher deficits. If we raised the tariffs on the remaining fewer imports to break even, 85% to 135% tariffs become 200%. 300%. With even more erosion if not collapse of import markets.

With retaliatory tariffs of similar size against us. And on. And on.

The last time we tried this, it took a decade, a world war and 75 million dead to pull us out of it.

We might need a world war now.

I understand where you're coming from...but the pain is coming either way.

All there is to decide is whether to tear off the band-aid now, or let the wound fester.

 

[Missourian]

We import more than we export. The strength of our markets is our consumption. Tariffs at this scale make import consumption ludicrously expensive. If they can't sell their products here......what do they need us for?

If they don't sell it here, where do they sell it?

It's either here or nowhere.

 

[Skylar]

We might need a world war now.

Why? The consequences of a world war are FAR worse now then they were then.

I understand where you're coming from...but the pain is coming either way.

We don't need to actively embrace the worst possible economic strategies that have a proven track record of being immediately followed by great depressions.

We can absolutely choose better options. Even targeted and limited tariffs to protect US industry make more sense.

But you'd make things much less sustainable than they already are with this scale of tariffs. And that doesn't seem to be your goal.

All there is to decide is whether to tear off the band-aid now, or let the wound fester.

This is more like trying to breathe through a gunshot wound in your forehead. Its not a strategy for healing. Its a strategy for stagnation and economic decay.

Economic immolation won't provide you with the results you seem to be looking for.