Trickle-Up Recession: The 1% Getting Real About the Permanent Fix for the Economy

[Andylusion]

the racket of BigPharma here in the US

It is even worse than that. The whole "mental health" spending is aimed at defining those who notice too much truth here as "mentally ill." Obama wants everyone in his health plan so he can pick and choose who is and isn't mentally ill based on ideology and whether or not you notice too much about what an unreal disaster and traitor Obama has been.

Sil is mentally ill. He's reposted the same proven false statements now 7 times. Each time we confront his hearsay with fact... and like a robotic parrot, he just reposts the same claims, like we won't notice.

I'm convinced that guy that used to post on here with the tag-line "Leftism is a mental illness" might have been more true than we knew.

 

[Andylusion]

My model was based on those items because of the sheer volume in which they sell

Great, how much money do you need to raise?

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Every soda pop. Every Ding Dong. Every Twinkie. Every beer (taxed by fluid volume). Every bottle of wine. Every bottle of whiskey. Every pack of smokes. Every nicorette gum. Every pack of chew...across every cash register in every town in every county, in every state, across the whole nation, every day.

I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need. And again, malpractice reform, streamlining costs and nominal co-pays for each visit to discourage overuse of the system. Yeah, I think we could pull it off.

Yeah.........

So you just promote a policy, that you have no idea how to fund, no idea what the cost would be, no idea how the practical functional system would work..... but.... "That's for the geeks to figure out".

You know what you sound like? Stalin. Stalin would say "Get this stuff to X" And everyone was just supposed to 'make it happen'. Then when it didn't work... he would have people shot for disloyalty to the party.

This is why you have the Bernie Sanders plan, where even other proponents of socialized health care said he plan doesn't add up.

 

[Silhouette]

My model was based on those items because of the sheer volume in which they sell

Great, how much money do you need to raise?

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Every soda pop. Every Ding Dong. Every Twinkie. Every beer (taxed by fluid volume). Every bottle of wine. Every bottle of whiskey. Every pack of smokes. Every nicorette gum. Every pack of chew...across every cash register in every town in every county, in every state, across the whole nation, every day.

I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need. And again, malpractice reform, streamlining costs and nominal co-pays for each visit to discourage overuse of the system. Yeah, I think we could pull it off.

So you just promote a policy, that you have no idea how to fund, no idea what the cost would be, no idea how the practical functional system would work..... but.... "That's for the geeks to figure out".


.

Yeah, kind of like how Cheney promoted invading sovereign Iraq. Only lives would actually be saved in my "jump in blind" scenario.

You seem to think that people aren't aware of how many times a cash register rings up a soda, twinkie, ding dong, pack of smokes, chew, beer or wine in this country each day. Every mimi mart, every grocery store, every corner liquor store, every Wallmart, Costco in every town in every state, every day. That would add up. If it was a dime tax, you could double my previous estimate.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

My model was based on those items because of the sheer volume in which they sell

Great, how much money do you need to raise?

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Every soda pop. Every Ding Dong. Every Twinkie. Every beer (taxed by fluid volume). Every bottle of wine. Every bottle of whiskey. Every pack of smokes. Every nicorette gum. Every pack of chew...across every cash register in every town in every county, in every state, across the whole nation, every day.

I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need. And again, malpractice reform, streamlining costs and nominal co-pays for each visit to discourage overuse of the system. Yeah, I think we could pull it off.

So you just promote a policy, that you have no idea how to fund, no idea what the cost would be, no idea how the practical functional system would work..... but.... "That's for the geeks to figure out".


.

Yeah, kind of like how Cheney promoted invading sovereign Iraq. Only lives would actually be saved in my "jump in blind" scenario.

You seem to think that people aren't aware of how many times a cash register rings up a soda, twinkie, ding dong, pack of smokes, chew, beer or wine in this country each day. Every mimi mart, every grocery store, every corner liquor store, every Wallmart, Costco in every town in every state, every day. That would add up. If it was a dime tax, you could double my previous estimate.

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Not nearly enough.

I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need.

Yes, a small percentage. So much for your master plan.

 

[Silhouette]

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Not nearly enough....I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need.

Yes, a small percentage. So much for your master plan.

You sure about that? Every cash register in every store in every hamlet in every town in every county in every state, every day, ringing up say, OK a dime on each sale of a twinkie, candy bar, ding dong, gatoraide, soda, energy drink, cigarette, cigar, pipe tobacco, chew, ales, wine cooler, whiskey, vodka, rum, tequila, beer & wine....think that would only be a nominal amount eh? I think you're wrong. So do a lot of other people reading just now.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Not nearly enough....I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need.

Yes, a small percentage. So much for your master plan.

You sure about that? Every cash register in every store in every hamlet in every town in every county in every state, every day, ringing up say, OK a dime on each sale of a twinkie, candy bar, ding dong, gatoraide, soda, energy drink, cigarette, cigar, pipe tobacco, chew, ales, wine cooler, whiskey, vodka, rum, tequila, beer & wine....think that would only be a nominal amount eh? I think you're wrong. So do a lot of other people reading just now.

You sure about that?

Yes.

....think that would only be a nominal amount eh?

If you tell me how much we need to implement Universal Healthcare, I'd be able to show you just how tiny a percentage of the cost your suggestion would raise.

I think you're wrong.

That's because you're dreadfully bad at math.

 

[Andylusion]

My model was based on those items because of the sheer volume in which they sell

Great, how much money do you need to raise?

That's for the geeks to figure out. But you'd think that even a nickle for every single sale in all 50 states in every store across every cash register, every day, forever, would start to add up to a nice pool that could be tapped for UH.

Every soda pop. Every Ding Dong. Every Twinkie. Every beer (taxed by fluid volume). Every bottle of wine. Every bottle of whiskey. Every pack of smokes. Every nicorette gum. Every pack of chew...across every cash register in every town in every county, in every state, across the whole nation, every day.

I think that might add up to a percentage at least of what UH might need. And again, malpractice reform, streamlining costs and nominal co-pays for each visit to discourage overuse of the system. Yeah, I think we could pull it off.

So you just promote a policy, that you have no idea how to fund, no idea what the cost would be, no idea how the practical functional system would work..... but.... "That's for the geeks to figure out".


.

Yeah, kind of like how Cheney promoted invading sovereign Iraq. Only lives would actually be saved in my "jump in blind" scenario.

You seem to think that people aren't aware of how many times a cash register rings up a soda, twinkie, ding dong, pack of smokes, chew, beer or wine in this country each day. Every mimi mart, every grocery store, every corner liquor store, every Wallmart, Costco in every town in every state, every day. That would add up. If it was a dime tax, you could double my previous estimate.

Yes. Like Dick Cheney. I agree. So what you are now saying is that you are following directly in the footsteps of Dick Cheney?

Cheney had unrealistic expectations of Iraq, that it could be won, and solved, in a matter of months and then we could leave Iraq in weeks. This was folly, and most of us knew it.

Now you are doing the exact same thing with Universal Healthcare. And you tied your own argument to Dick Cheney.

What part of this are you not getting... while you are the one saying it?

Again, you are assuming that people would buy the same amount of stuff, if you increase taxes. We've already shown that as you increase taxes, people find cheaper alternatives, and reduce their purchases.

Now what many would say is "a 10% tax isn't that much", but if you think it's going to add up in revenue to the Federal government, then by the necessity of logic, it must also add up to the individual.

There is no 'magic tax' that 'adds up' to billions in Federal Revenue, and yet magically doesn't 'add up' to money lost to the US citizen. And if it starts adding up, then people are going to change how they spend.

Again, the tax revenue from cigarettes, has declined year over year.

The other side is that, you fail to grasp just how much health care is going to cost.

Every time you have increased government funded health care, the cost has consistently out paced the estimates.

Take MassHealth.

The state level benchmark, was 3.6%. In 2013 it went over the estimates by 1.1%, which is nothing compared to 2014, where it was 15.4% over the estimates.

Same is true in Ohio, where the actual costs of Medicaid expansion, are now more than double the estimated cost.

Ohio Medicaid expansion costs top $7.5 billion - Watchdog.org

And lastly, let's take a quick look at some of the big numbers.

Topic: Snack Foods Industry

According to this estimate, total retail snack food sales for the entire USA, was roughly $124 Billion dollars.

NHE Fact Sheet - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services

According to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, total spending on Medicaid ALONE.... was $500 Billion.

Now you tell me 'mr. public-schooled'.... How much tax are you going to have to implement on $124 Billion in sales, to pay for a government program that already costs $500 Billion?

Do tell. I'm looking forward to seeing your math on this Dick Cheney wannabe.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ Compared to military spending which guarantees to kill human life? I'll take ten cent taxes on ding dongs, smokes and beers every day.

You forgot statistics for sales of sodas, alcohol and tobacco products. Why did you forget those? I think we know why..

Terrible at math here. Well, say if we taxed 10 cents on every snack food dollar spend which is 124,000,000,000, we are getting 12,400,000,000. Or $12.4 billion in revenue JUST from snack foods. Add in sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc., keeping to the 10 cents per dollar tax on these MUCH more expensive items, you can bump that back up to $124 billion again. Streamline costs by auditing actual outlay, charge co-pays at each visit (to discourage overuse by hypochondriacs), reform malpractice law and I'll wager we've made the mark. And of course your estimates are inflated because of all the problems I just mentioned that need reforming. I think I saw a figure once where hospitals mark up supply costs on bills like I think it was 10,000% markup. We could start there, for instance...

We'd have to have a panel put together what the figures would be after streamlining and reforming medicine, then calculate all the revenue from sugars, tobacco & booze products at ten cents on the dollar, from there figure if there is a deficit and charge whatever that is as a co-pay per visit. Get back to me on those figures for sodas, tobacco and booze sales annually when you get a chance.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

^^ Compared to military spending which guarantees to kill human life? I'll take ten cent taxes on ding dongs, smokes and beers every day.

You forgot statistics for sales of sodas, alcohol and tobacco products. Why did you forget those? I think we know why..

Terrible at math here. Well, say if we taxed 10 cents on every snack food dollar spend which is 124,000,000,000, we are getting 12,400,000,000. Or $12.4 billion in revenue JUST from snack foods. Add in sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc., keeping to the 10 cents per dollar tax on these MUCH more expensive items, you can bump that back up to $124 billion again. Streamline costs by auditing actual outlay, charge co-pays at each visit (to discourage overuse by hypochondriacs), reform malpractice law and I'll wager we've made the mark. And of course your estimates are inflated because of all the problems I just mentioned that need reforming. I think I saw a figure once where hospitals mark up supply costs on bills like I think it was 10,000% markup. We could start there, for instance...

We'd have to have a panel put together what the figures would be after streamlining and reforming medicine, then calculate all the revenue from sugars, tobacco & booze products at ten cents on the dollar, from there figure if there is a deficit and charge whatever that is as a co-pay per visit. Get back to me on those figures for sodas, tobacco and booze sales annually when you get a chance.

I'll take ten cent taxes on ding dongs, smokes and beers every day.

Ten cents?

Well, say if we taxed 10 cents on every snack food dollar

Ten percent? Make up your mind.

you can bump that back up to $124 billion again.

That's about $400 per America per year.
If you think that comes close to covering UHC, you're dumber than I first thought.

if there is a deficit and charge whatever that is as a co-pay per visit.

You said UHC would save as much as a second mortgage payment.
Those are gonna be some damn high co-pays.

 

[Andylusion]

^^ Compared to military spending which guarantees to kill human life? I'll take ten cent taxes on ding dongs, smokes and beers every day.

You forgot statistics for sales of sodas, alcohol and tobacco products. Why did you forget those? I think we know why..

Terrible at math here. Well, say if we taxed 10 cents on every snack food dollar spend which is 124,000,000,000, we are getting 12,400,000,000. Or $12.4 billion in revenue JUST from snack foods. Add in sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc., keeping to the 10 cents per dollar tax on these MUCH more expensive items, you can bump that back up to $124 billion again. Streamline costs by auditing actual outlay, charge co-pays at each visit (to discourage overuse by hypochondriacs), reform malpractice law and I'll wager we've made the mark. And of course your estimates are inflated because of all the problems I just mentioned that need reforming. I think I saw a figure once where hospitals mark up supply costs on bills like I think it was 10,000% markup. We could start there, for instance...

We'd have to have a panel put together what the figures would be after streamlining and reforming medicine, then calculate all the revenue from sugars, tobacco & booze products at ten cents on the dollar, from there figure if there is a deficit and charge whatever that is as a co-pay per visit. Get back to me on those figures for sodas, tobacco and booze sales annually when you get a chance.

$12 Billion...... Medicaid alone is $500 Billion. That wouldn't cover the cost of anything.

The Medicaid expansion in Ohio, only covered a few thousand more people, and yet cost billions more. I would wager based on the math, that to cover all the uninsured in Ohio.... just Ohio, would be greater than your $12 Billion. Possibly a ton more than $12 Billion. And there are reasons for that, we haven't even addressed.

And you think that a co-pay is going to fix that? Because most of Europe has co-pays, it costs hundreds of billions to fund their system.

I think I saw a figure once where hospitals mark up supply costs on bills like I think it was 10,000% markup. We could start there, for instance...

While that is true, there is a reason for this. Insurance companies have negotiated discounts. Meaning that if you are with Insurance-Corp, you get a 50% discount. Well if you get a surgery that costs $1000, and you get a 50% discount... then you have to inflate the price by 100%, to still make a profit with the discount.

Additionally, hospitals have to make up for the cost of Medicare and Medicaid. When the government dictates prices. So when the government says they'll pay just $800, for this $1,000 surgery, the hospital has to charge all other patients a higher price, say $1,200 plus a compensation on the discount, $2,400.

So as you can see, the costs of everything ends up far greater than the supply cost. And it's generally you people on the left who have caused this. The primary reason Insurance companies have such a lock on the system, is because you gave tax incentives and regulations requiring companies to provide insurance.

Equally, another significant cost, is how much employees are paid.

Hospital, union must head off nurses strike - The Boston Globe

Cash poor MassHealth is going broke, yet Unions, which left-wingers like you support, are protesting and demanding ever greater pay.

Well who is paying that? You are. With higher hospital bills.

Union raises pay for hospital workers

This Union secured a minimum wage of $15 at the hospitals. And now you want to cry about the high cost of hospital stays?

Here is an actual budget, for a real hospital. Notice... $3 Million of the expenses.... are salary. Employee pay. The next highest expense for this hospital was only $427k.

Everything else is a tiny expense. But you people on the left, decry any time a worker salary is cut.

I found out that the local hospital here, was paying people $10/hr.... to do nothing but roll trays of food to the patients. Literally Forest Gump could roll the tray, to the room. Keep in mind, not cook the food. Those people are Union, and paid significantly more to pour the canned soup into a bowl, and turn the heat on.

But just to roll the tray, to the rooms. Super hard work. $10/hr.

Should they be paid less? No? Then you can't complain about the cost hospitals charge.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ Compared to military spending which guarantees to kill human life? I'll take ten cent taxes on ding dongs, smokes and beers every day.

You forgot statistics for sales of sodas, alcohol and tobacco products. Why did you forget those? I think we know why..

Terrible at math here. Well, say if we taxed 10 cents on every snack food dollar spend which is 124,000,000,000, we are getting 12,400,000,000. Or $12.4 billion in revenue JUST from snack foods. Add in sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc., keeping to the 10 cents per dollar tax on these MUCH more expensive items, you can bump that back up to $124 billion again. Streamline costs by auditing actual outlay, charge co-pays at each visit (to discourage overuse by hypochondriacs), reform malpractice law and I'll wager we've made the mark. And of course your estimates are inflated because of all the problems I just mentioned that need reforming. I think I saw a figure once where hospitals mark up supply costs on bills like I think it was 10,000% markup. We could start there, for instance...

We'd have to have a panel put together what the figures would be after streamlining and reforming medicine, then calculate all the revenue from sugars, tobacco & booze products at ten cents on the dollar, from there figure if there is a deficit and charge whatever that is as a co-pay per visit. Get back to me on those figures for sodas, tobacco and booze sales annually when you get a chance.

$12 Billion...... Medicaid alone is $500 Billion. That wouldn't cover the cost of anything.

The Medicaid expansion in Ohio, only covered a few thousand more people, and yet cost billions more. I would wager based on the math, that to cover all the uninsured in Ohio.... just Ohio, would be greater than your $12 Billion. Possibly a ton more than $12 Billion. And there are reasons for that, we haven't even addressed....another significant cost, is how much employees are paid.....Here is an actual budget, for a real hospital. Notice... $3 Million of the expenses.... are salary. Employee pay. The next highest expense for this hospital was only $427k....Everything else is a tiny expense.

I notice you didn't discuss how $12 billion was not all of the revenue. So I bolded and expanded the part you didn't address, nor give figures for in my spiel above yours. Would you like to post figures, even estimates from the revenue that would be generated by a 10 cents on the dollar tax on sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc, as well as the figure you quoted for snack food sales?

We can't have a meaningful comparison until you do. Also, it would be great if you could say "$500 billion per day, or per week, or per month, or per year. It gets kind of hard to do the math with these missing components.

Also, I assume that the 10,000% markup on actual costs is already a form of universal healthcare but in a very bullshit way. It jacks the crap out of people who aren't poor enough to qualify and forces them to pay outrageous premiums and deductibles just to cover what hospitals are (required by law I'm assuming?) to discount to the Medicaid patients who are treated at no or very little cost to them. What I see happening here is a situation of gray areas ripe for fraud and abuse of the system. Sure you could argue "once that pool of cash is in government hands it'll be the same". But I would disagree. The oversight process and auditing would be vastly more streamlined. I think the health insurance companies LOVE that the system is super hodge-podged right now. What a lovely smokescreen to engage in all types of money scams that do nothing about providing healthcare for people and instead serve to make the fraudster's rich!

This is one of THE MAIN areas of cutting back on healthcare costs while still providing services to the people who actually need help. And, get back to me with those figures or estimates on the other sources of revenue in bold above..

 

[Andylusion]

$12 Billion...... Medicaid alone is $500 Billion. That wouldn't cover the cost of anything.

The Medicaid expansion in Ohio, only covered a few thousand more people, and yet cost billions more. I would wager based on the math, that to cover all the uninsured in Ohio.... just Ohio, would be greater than your $12 Billion. Possibly a ton more than $12 Billion. And there are reasons for that, we haven't even addressed....another significant cost, is how much employees are paid.....Here is an actual budget, for a real hospital. Notice... $3 Million of the expenses.... are salary. Employee pay. The next highest expense for this hospital was only $427k....Everything else is a tiny expense.

I notice you didn't discuss how $12 billion was not all of the revenue. So I bolded and expanded the part you didn't address, nor give figures for in my spiel above yours. Would you like to post figures, even estimates from the revenue that would be generated by a 10 cents on the dollar tax on sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc, as well as the figure you quoted for snack food sales?

We can't have a meaningful comparison until you do. Also, it would be great if you could say "$500 billion per day, or per week, or per month, or per year. It gets kind of hard to do the math with these missing components.

Also, I assume that the 10,000% markup on actual costs is already a form of universal healthcare but in a very bullshit way. It jacks the crap out of people who aren't poor enough to qualify and forces them to pay outrageous premiums and deductibles just to cover what hospitals are (required by law I'm assuming?) to discount to the Medicaid patients who are treated at no or very little cost to them. What I see happening here is a situation of gray areas ripe for fraud and abuse of the system. Sure you could argue "once that pool of cash is in government hands it'll be the same". But I would disagree. The oversight process and auditing would be vastly more streamlined. I think the health insurance companies LOVE that the system is super hodge-podged right now. What a lovely smokescreen to engage in all types of money scams that do nothing about providing healthcare for people and instead serve to make the fraudster's rich!

This is one of THE MAIN areas of cutting back on healthcare costs while still providing services to the people who actually need help. And, get back to me with those figures or estimates on the other sources of revenue in bold above..

Dude this is basic math.... $12 Billion, is a 10% tax on all snack food sales nation wide. A 10¢ tax, would be LOWER than $12 Billion. Point being, $12 Billion in revenue from snack food sales, would be the upper level of what you could collect from your claimed tax.

Additionally, the total sales of all alcoholic beverages is only $200 Billion. A 10% tax would only bring in $20 Billion. A 10¢ tax, would be a fraction of that. Again, point being that $20 Billion is the best you could hope for.

Tobacco sales already have a $1 per pack tax on them, and the tax revenue was $17 Billion in 2010, and had declined to under $15 Billion by 2013. The tax revenue is falling year over year.

Total Tobacco sales, in all forms, is $42 Billion. So a 10% tax would be $4 Billion. In other words, it would a lower amount of revenue than existing taxes. Additionally, Tobacco alternatives are a tiny fraction of that. Total E-Cigarettes nation wide, are not even $1 Billion dollars. Nicorette is a fraction of that.

So let's pretend that you got the max amount of tax revenue from all your sources. $12 Billion from snacks, $20 Billion from alcohol, and $17 Billion from smokes. That's just $49 Billion.

Medicaid.... just Medicaid alone.... is $500 Billion in spending. In fact, all your taxes combined, wouldn't even cover the cost of the VA Healthcare system. They spend $51 Billion.

Your taxes can't even cover the VA.... let alone a tiny fraction of the Medicaid, and barely even a spec of the cost of Medicare. In short, your taxes, is like you going to lake Erie, and spitting into it, thinking doing so would change the water level. It's not just wrong... it's mental illness.

All numbers are annually. Total sales figures, are annually. Total tax figures are annually. Total Medicare, Medicaid, VA Health cost numbers, are annually.

Also, I assume that the 10,000% markup on actual costs is already a form of universal healthcare but in a very bullshit way. It jacks the crap out of people who aren't poor enough to qualify and forces them to pay outrageous premiums and deductibles just to cover what hospitals are (required by law I'm assuming?) to discount to the Medicaid patients who are treated at no or very little cost to them. What I see happening here is a situation of gray areas ripe for fraud and abuse of the system. Sure you could argue "once that pool of cash is in government hands it'll be the same". But I would disagree. The oversight process and auditing would be vastly more streamlined. I think the health insurance companies LOVE that the system is super hodge-podged right now. What a lovely smokescreen to engage in all types of money scams that do nothing about providing healthcare for people and instead serve to make the fraudster's rich!

Wait... you think that Medicare and Medicaid patients do not cost the hospitals any money? Hospitals routinely show they LOSE MONEY on Medicare and Medicaid patients.

If they don't charge other patients more, they go out of business.

Remember the Mayo Clinic?
Medicare and the Mayo Clinic
You know, the one which they praised the better quality service for the lower price? Which started refusing Medicare patients because the government payout was too low?

See, this is way. The whole reason the Mayo Clinic refused to take government patients was because in order to do that, they would have to charge private patients a higher price. In order to keep prices lower, they had to refuse government patients.

All the 'oversight' and 'streamlined processing' isn't going to change the simple math. It costs a minimum amount of money, to provide any given service. Government doesn't pay that minimum amount. Thus it must be charged to others. Or.... they have to refuse government patients.

Doctors, Hospitals Say 'No' to Obamacare Plans

We've already seen major hospitals, and doctors, that refuse Obama Care market plans. And that number is growing by the month.

And it's not just the major companies, it's as I said, individual doctors that are refusing government patients.

Why Many Physicians Are Reluctant To See Medicaid Patients

Study: Nearly A Third Of Doctors Won’t See New Medicaid Patients

Almost 1/3rd of all doctors refuse to see Medicaid patients.

http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2...worse-off-than-those-who-dont-have-insurance/

Worse than this, Medicaid patients often receive lower quality of care, than those patients who have no insurance at all.

Why is this? Because if you have a person who has zero insurance, you can send them a bill. Some pay the bill. (I cite myself as proof. I got a bill for several thousand dollars, and over the course of 2 years, I paid every penny I owed for health care).

But Medicaid patients are different, because you get only what the government tells you, and you have no way of recouping the cost. You can't send them a bill for what government payouts do not cover. So you simply lose money.

As an alternative, you give Medicaid patients the absolute bare minimum of treatment, to limit the money lost on those patients.

If that sounds familiar (as it does to us on the right-wing who have followed government care for decades now), it's because this is what we've seen in the UK, and France, and in Canada, where doctors don't even tell patients about newer, higher quality treatments, because the patients can't get them anyway, so why bother?

So a Medicaid patients goes to a doctor, and he simply omits all the treatments that could really help, gives you the bare minimum, and sends you on your way.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

$12 Billion...... Medicaid alone is $500 Billion. That wouldn't cover the cost of anything.

The Medicaid expansion in Ohio, only covered a few thousand more people, and yet cost billions more. I would wager based on the math, that to cover all the uninsured in Ohio.... just Ohio, would be greater than your $12 Billion. Possibly a ton more than $12 Billion. And there are reasons for that, we haven't even addressed....another significant cost, is how much employees are paid.....Here is an actual budget, for a real hospital. Notice... $3 Million of the expenses.... are salary. Employee pay. The next highest expense for this hospital was only $427k....Everything else is a tiny expense.

I notice you didn't discuss how $12 billion was not all of the revenue. So I bolded and expanded the part you didn't address, nor give figures for in my spiel above yours. Would you like to post figures, even estimates from the revenue that would be generated by a 10 cents on the dollar tax on sodas, beer, wine, hard alcohol, cigarettes, chew, pipe tobacco, nicorette etc, as well as the figure you quoted for snack food sales?

We can't have a meaningful comparison until you do. Also, it would be great if you could say "$500 billion per day, or per week, or per month, or per year. It gets kind of hard to do the math with these missing components.

Also, I assume that the 10,000% markup on actual costs is already a form of universal healthcare but in a very bullshit way. It jacks the crap out of people who aren't poor enough to qualify and forces them to pay outrageous premiums and deductibles just to cover what hospitals are (required by law I'm assuming?) to discount to the Medicaid patients who are treated at no or very little cost to them. What I see happening here is a situation of gray areas ripe for fraud and abuse of the system. Sure you could argue "once that pool of cash is in government hands it'll be the same". But I would disagree. The oversight process and auditing would be vastly more streamlined. I think the health insurance companies LOVE that the system is super hodge-podged right now. What a lovely smokescreen to engage in all types of money scams that do nothing about providing healthcare for people and instead serve to make the fraudster's rich!

This is one of THE MAIN areas of cutting back on healthcare costs while still providing services to the people who actually need help. And, get back to me with those figures or estimates on the other sources of revenue in bold above..

Dude this is basic math.... $12 Billion, is a 10% tax on all snack food sales nation wide. A 10¢ tax, would be LOWER than $12 Billion. Point being, $12 Billion in revenue from snack food sales, would be the upper level of what you could collect from your claimed tax.

Additionally, the total sales of all alcoholic beverages is only $200 Billion. A 10% tax would only bring in $20 Billion. A 10¢ tax, would be a fraction of that. Again, point being that $20 Billion is the best you could hope for.

Tobacco sales already have a $1 per pack tax on them, and the tax revenue was $17 Billion in 2010, and had declined to under $15 Billion by 2013. The tax revenue is falling year over year.

Total Tobacco sales, in all forms, is $42 Billion. So a 10% tax would be $4 Billion. In other words, it would a lower amount of revenue than existing taxes. Additionally, Tobacco alternatives are a tiny fraction of that. Total E-Cigarettes nation wide, are not even $1 Billion dollars. Nicorette is a fraction of that.

So let's pretend that you got the max amount of tax revenue from all your sources. $12 Billion from snacks, $20 Billion from alcohol, and $17 Billion from smokes. That's just $49 Billion.

Medicaid.... just Medicaid alone.... is $500 Billion in spending. In fact, all your taxes combined, wouldn't even cover the cost of the VA Healthcare system. They spend $51 Billion.

Your taxes can't even cover the VA.... let alone a tiny fraction of the Medicaid, and barely even a spec of the cost of Medicare. In short, your taxes, is like you going to lake Erie, and spitting into it, thinking doing so would change the water level. It's not just wrong... it's mental illness.

All numbers are annually. Total sales figures, are annually. Total tax figures are annually. Total Medicare, Medicaid, VA Health cost numbers, are annually.

Also, I assume that the 10,000% markup on actual costs is already a form of universal healthcare but in a very bullshit way. It jacks the crap out of people who aren't poor enough to qualify and forces them to pay outrageous premiums and deductibles just to cover what hospitals are (required by law I'm assuming?) to discount to the Medicaid patients who are treated at no or very little cost to them. What I see happening here is a situation of gray areas ripe for fraud and abuse of the system. Sure you could argue "once that pool of cash is in government hands it'll be the same". But I would disagree. The oversight process and auditing would be vastly more streamlined. I think the health insurance companies LOVE that the system is super hodge-podged right now. What a lovely smokescreen to engage in all types of money scams that do nothing about providing healthcare for people and instead serve to make the fraudster's rich!

Wait... you think that Medicare and Medicaid patients do not cost the hospitals any money? Hospitals routinely show they LOSE MONEY on Medicare and Medicaid patients.

If they don't charge other patients more, they go out of business.

Remember the Mayo Clinic?
Medicare and the Mayo Clinic
You know, the one which they praised the better quality service for the lower price? Which started refusing Medicare patients because the government payout was too low?

See, this is way. The whole reason the Mayo Clinic refused to take government patients was because in order to do that, they would have to charge private patients a higher price. In order to keep prices lower, they had to refuse government patients.

All the 'oversight' and 'streamlined processing' isn't going to change the simple math. It costs a minimum amount of money, to provide any given service. Government doesn't pay that minimum amount. Thus it must be charged to others. Or.... they have to refuse government patients.

Doctors, Hospitals Say 'No' to Obamacare Plans

We've already seen major hospitals, and doctors, that refuse Obama Care market plans. And that number is growing by the month.

And it's not just the major companies, it's as I said, individual doctors that are refusing government patients.

Why Many Physicians Are Reluctant To See Medicaid Patients

Study: Nearly A Third Of Doctors Won’t See New Medicaid Patients

Almost 1/3rd of all doctors refuse to see Medicaid patients.

http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2...worse-off-than-those-who-dont-have-insurance/

Worse than this, Medicaid patients often receive lower quality of care, than those patients who have no insurance at all.

Why is this? Because if you have a person who has zero insurance, you can send them a bill. Some pay the bill. (I cite myself as proof. I got a bill for several thousand dollars, and over the course of 2 years, I paid every penny I owed for health care).

But Medicaid patients are different, because you get only what the government tells you, and you have no way of recouping the cost. You can't send them a bill for what government payouts do not cover. So you simply lose money.

As an alternative, you give Medicaid patients the absolute bare minimum of treatment, to limit the money lost on those patients.

If that sounds familiar (as it does to us on the right-wing who have followed government care for decades now), it's because this is what we've seen in the UK, and France, and in Canada, where doctors don't even tell patients about newer, higher quality treatments, because the patients can't get them anyway, so why bother?

So a Medicaid patients goes to a doctor, and he simply omits all the treatments that could really help, gives you the bare minimum, and sends you on your way.

Yes, his math was very, horribly bad.

 

[Andylusion]

^^ Compared told above..

Just for amusement, I had a thought experiment.... what if we collected *ALL* revenue from retail sales of everything you mentioned..... 100% tax, on everything you mentioned. Alcohol, Tobacco, and snack foods, let's even throw in Soda.

Retail Soda drink sales: $40 Billion.
All Smokeable products: $250 Billion.
Alcoholic Beverages: $200 Billion.
Snack Food Sales: $120 Billion.

So added all together, that would be... $610 Billion.

Medicare.... the total cost of Medicare, not including co-pays, not including premiums... just the cost of government spending on Medicare, alone.... no VA Healthcare, no Medicaid:

$618 Billion.

So a 100% tax on all those things.... wouldn't cover Medicare by itself. No including co-pays and premium payments.

Of course, no one is going to pay 100% tax, and no company would stay in business. So in reality you wouldn't collect any taxes at all. The real revenue from a 100% tax, would be zero, or close to it.

This is why the left-wing ideology is a mental illness. You live in a dream world, where numbers and facts, are set aside for "That's for the geeks to figure out". You don't live in the real world of practical truth. You just hear someone say something you want to believe, and when people ask you how it is going to work, you just "well I'll let the geeks figure out how to make it work".

Grow up. Start using your grey matter, and think though the claims you make, rather than "just let the geeks figure it out".

 

[Silhouette]

I know the corruption in the hodge-podge system we have right now cannot be cured without a single system with oversight and auditing. Costs would come down; drastically. Let me know when you are ready to subtract the costs of healthcare first by reforming it, then we talk about funding it. Surely you forgot the addition of the co-pay at the time of service? That will add up too. I notice someone says "smokeables". You forgot chew & nicorette gum. For that matter, gum. And OK, maybe sundries too? There's a way to do this and the system we have now is making a handful of fraudsters fat while people die for want of basic healthcare.

 

[Andylusion]

I know the corruption in the hodge-podge system we have right now cannot be cured without a single system with oversight and auditing. Costs would come down; drastically. Let me know when you are ready to subtract the costs of healthcare first by reforming it, then we talk about funding it. Surely you forgot the addition of the co-pay at the time of service? That will add up too. I notice someone says "smokeables". You forgot chew & nicorette gum. For that matter, gum. And OK, maybe sundries too? There's a way to do this and the system we have now is making a handful of fraudsters fat while people die for want of basic healthcare.

There is no example anywhere in this world, where government regulation and oversight, caused health care costs to go down. In fact, I can't honestly think of any example where anything industry or economic sector was highly regulated, and heavy oversight, where costs went down.

Not even one.

The most wide spread example would be mass transit, and prior to the crash, Greece was spending more money per rider of their mass transit system, than it would cost to hire individual taxi drivers for each rider.

The only health care examples you can cite, would be examples where they rationed care. Canada, UK, and so on. Yes, if you deny care to people... the cost will go down.

Take the VA system. The VA system *IS* the government controlled, government regulated, government oversight system, you claim to want.

The VA system is a disaster. And what was the latest big blow up? Denying care. Putting people on waiting lists for 5 years.

Again, just like Canada and the UK.

We've tried your system. It simply does not have the positive effect you claim.

Now ironically, there is an exact opposite system, with little to no government regulation, and little to no oversight, which has resulted in the lowest amount of price, highest quality, and least amount of corruption.

Want to guess what system that is? Medical tourism. Look at the private capitalist, unregulated, non-government controlled hospitals around the world, that don't have any of these problems, and have better results, at a lower price, than any socialized system in the world. Singapore, India, Turkey, Malasia and Brazil.

People are not booking to go to the government care hospitals in those countries, highly regulated and tons of oversight. Rather they are going to the capitalist, pay-for-service hospitals.

Of course none of them are subsidizing government patients. None of them have government agencies they have to report to. No collective bargaining. No state run audit. Just business people, with a profit motive, that provide the best service at the lowest cost.

See unlike what you propose, which has failed every single time it's tried, what we propose... getting back to a basic capitalist system which has worked every time it's tried.... has in fact been tried, and is in fact working.

 

[hadit]

Forget being able to sue a doctor or hospital for malpractice when the government runs healthcare.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Forget being able to sue a doctor or hospital for malpractice when the government runs healthcare.

That will get you the Soylent Green treatment.

 

[hadit]

Forget being able to sue a doctor or hospital for malpractice when the government runs healthcare.

That will get you the Soylent Green treatment.

I was always told it is a bad thing for conservatives to push tort reform because we have to be able to stop bad doctors. Government run healthcare is the ultimate tort reform. Just look at how "easy" it is to get rid of a bad government employee. I doubt any of those pushing it have ever tried to sue the DMV for messing up a driver's license or car registration.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ Oh so now you're in favor of not doing tort reform.