Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[THE LIGHT]

Keeton should have the moral integrity to announce to those whom she insists have chosen homosexuality the exact date or period in her life when she was faced with the choice of sexual orientation and chose heterosexuality. If she won't abide by the recomendations of the American Psychiatric Association what is she doing practicing in this field? Gay conversion therapy is not only against APA guidelines, it has also been found to be psychologically harmful to patients.

I don't understand why she didn't attend a Christian university. Keeton has a right to her views, she shouldn't be imposing them on counseling clients unless she is working for a Christian counseling service whose goal is to convert homosexuals.

But the school has the right to impose their beliefs on Keeton?

In other words as long as intolerant gay bigots are in control of schools they can force their views on those attending their school but if a Christian chooses to practice a business in the way she sees fit then it isn't okay.

 

[Coyote]

Keeton should have the moral integrity to announce to those whom she insists have chosen homosexuality the exact date or period in her life when she was faced with the choice of sexual orientation and chose heterosexuality. If she won't abide by the recomendations of the American Psychiatric Association what is she doing practicing in this field? Gay conversion therapy is not only against APA guidelines, it has also been found to be psychologically harmful to patients.

I don't understand why she didn't attend a Christian university. Keeton has a right to her views, she shouldn't be imposing them on counseling clients unless she is working for a Christian counseling service whose goal is to convert homosexuals.

But the school has the right to impose their beliefs on Keeton?

What beliefs? Link please.

Jeezum. Why do you guys keep building strawmen? The school is not imposing any "beliefs" - she enrolled in a professional program, one that has certain professional standards that have to be met in order to be accredited. If her beliefs clash with those standards there are many other programs she could have chosen. In fact - one wonders why she didn't? At a Master's level, she clearly must be aware of the professional standards and requirements of her chosen field.

In other words as long as intolerant gay bigots are in control of schools they can force their views on those attending their school but if a Christian chooses to practice a business in the way she sees fit then it isn't okay.

She can choose to practice a business in any way she sees fit. Please - show me how she can't.

What she CAN'T do, is gain a degree under false pretenses. If she is incapable of meeting the conditions of the certification for the profession why on earth should she be given a special status and granted it?

 

[Coyote]

No shit.
So until she either states that she's going to dissuade people from being gay, or she is accused of unethical conduct, she shouldn't be drawn and quartered.

Thank you for agreeing. Because what she is being required to do is change her beliefs, and state that she has done so.

She's not being drawn and quartered.

She is not being required to change her beliefs - in fact, nowhere (other than her own alleged claims) is there any evidence that she is being required to to so.

She is being required to adhere to a professional standard - the same standard that everyone in that profession must adhere to (and given that a substantial majority of our country is Christian we can assume that most of these counselors are too).

While she claims to be willing to, from one side of her mouth - she does not follow that amongst her peers according to student statements. The degree program would be put at risk if they graduated someone unwilling or unable to meet those standards - particularly since counseling works with a very vulnerable group of people. They are not outright "failing her" - they are giving her a chance to learn more about one of the groups she could end up counseling and how to counsel them. It's not enough to say - ok, I'll follow these standards - she has to show she can do it by her actions. That is how degree programs work. She has not done that at this point.

At no point has the university said she must recant her personal religious views - if you continue to insist on that - provide proof.

It's that Martyrdom thing that they seem to enjoy. Note the picture of her sitting there with the open bible. I'm sure that wasn't a posed picture. Not at all.

Faux Martyrdom is tiresome. It seems to go hand in hand with a lot of whinging.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Again, you have no idea that is what she will do, you are speculating on what her future actions may be and are willing to take her rights away right now because of that. That's not right, I hope you can see that.

I hope you can see that she didn't come to the attention of her department by accident. Her views are very extreme and she has been very vocal about them and about her unwilling to tone down her intolerance even a notch.

That's all irrelevant until she actually does something wrong. You can't condemn her based on what she might do down the road.

She refuses to meet the psychology department requirements for her degree at the university.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Again, you have no idea that is what she will do, you are speculating on what her future actions may be and are willing to take her rights away right now because of that. That's not right, I hope you can see that.

I hope you can see that she didn't come to the attention of her department by accident. Her views are very extreme and she has been very vocal about them and about her unwilling to tone down her intolerance even a notch.

That's all irrelevant until she actually does something wrong. You can't condemn her based on what she might do down the road.

She refuses to meet the psychology department requirements for her degree at the university. Keeton refused to attend diversity training, a remedial condition of her program. She will not treat GLBT clients fairly. Here are her own words [PDF]to Augusta State officials,

“[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”

American Psychological Association standards, state, “Psychologists understand that homosexuality and bisexuality are not indicative of mental illness,” and, “Psychologists strive to understand how inaccurate or prejudicial views of homosexuality or bisexuality may affect the client’s presentation in treatment and the therapeutic process."

In Section A.4.b under "Personal Values," the ACA states, "Counselors are aware of their own values, attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors and avoid imposing values that are inconsistent with counseling goals. Counselors respect the diversity of clients, trainees, and research participants."

Section 5 on "Nondiscrimination." The rule states, "Counselors do not condone or engage in discrimination based on age, culture, disability, ethnicity, race, religion/spirituality, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, marital status/partnership, language preference, socioeconomic status, or any basis proscribed by law. Counselors do not discriminate against clients, students, employees, supervisees, or research participants in a manner that has a negative impact on these persons."

There are two tracts in the counselor education program at Augusta State: community counseling or school counseling. Both tracks have courses in diversity training, which the school recommended she take and additional writing assignments on the topic.

There is the ethical question, of certifying a student with a public degree that will not treat all patients equally. As an institution of higher education supplying Georgia with liscensed counselors for schools and communities, it should adhere to APA standards.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Keeton should have the moral integrity to announce to those whom she insists have chosen homosexuality the exact date or period in her life when she was faced with the choice of sexual orientation and chose heterosexuality. If she won't abide by the recomendations of the American Psychiatric Association what is she doing practicing in this field? Gay conversion therapy is not only against APA guidelines, it has also been found to be psychologically harmful to patients.

I don't understand why she didn't attend a Christian university. Keeton has a right to her views, she shouldn't be imposing them on counseling clients unless she is working for a Christian counseling service whose goal is to convert homosexuals.

But the school has the right to impose their beliefs on Keeton?

What beliefs? Link please.

Jeezum. Why do you guys keep building strawmen? The school is not imposing any "beliefs" - she enrolled in a professional program, one that has certain professional standards that have to be met in order to be accredited. If her beliefs clash with those standards there are many other programs she could have chosen. In fact - one wonders why she didn't? At a Master's level, she clearly must be aware of the professional standards and requirements of her chosen field.

In other words as long as intolerant gay bigots are in control of schools they can force their views on those attending their school but if a Christian chooses to practice a business in the way she sees fit then it isn't okay.

She can choose to practice a business in any way she sees fit. Please - show me how she can't.

What she CAN'T do, is gain a degree under false pretenses. If she is incapable of meeting the conditions of the certification for the profession why on earth should she be given a special status and granted it?

Standards don't set themselves.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Right. The University sets standards for it's counseling program. The APA and ACA set standards.

When you go to work in a field you agree to follow the standards of the profession.

 

[chanel]

Like journalists? Just sayin...

 

[Immanuel]

Great posts on this topic, Immie, unfortunately there isn't anyone here that is capable of understanding logic and common sense and are willing to dismiss facts in order to validate their own inaccurate view points.

Great posts by people you agree with. I thought we were having a discussion and all sides would be considered. I have knocked myself out posting ACA and APA guidelines and information about how to counsel gays and lesbians. Clearly, Ms Keeton is unwilling to meet the ethics of the counseling profession.

However, up until the post that I am now quoting, you have not yet shown a hairs breadth of evidence that Ms. Keeton would violate any of those guidelines. You keep claiming that she would and that she has said she would, but none of the articles about this case have actually said that.

I am beginning to think that you guys think she is a liar for no other reason than that she is a Christian.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program if Christian beliefs mean more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession.

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

I see malpractice.

She never said she would not abide by them. She said she thinks that homosexuality is a choice. People abide by things they don't agree with all the time.

Perhaps I don't agree with taxes? I pay them. I imagine you do as well.

Why do you think she would be any different?

Immie

 

[Coyote]

But the school has the right to impose their beliefs on Keeton?

What beliefs? Link please.

Jeezum. Why do you guys keep building strawmen? The school is not imposing any "beliefs" - she enrolled in a professional program, one that has certain professional standards that have to be met in order to be accredited. If her beliefs clash with those standards there are many other programs she could have chosen. In fact - one wonders why she didn't? At a Master's level, she clearly must be aware of the professional standards and requirements of her chosen field.

In other words as long as intolerant gay bigots are in control of schools they can force their views on those attending their school but if a Christian chooses to practice a business in the way she sees fit then it isn't okay.

She can choose to practice a business in any way she sees fit. Please - show me how she can't.

What she CAN'T do, is gain a degree under false pretenses. If she is incapable of meeting the conditions of the certification for the profession why on earth should she be given a special status and granted it?

Standards don't set themselves.

And that is relevant to the issue - how?

 

[Immanuel]

Wake up yourself. Your only interest is in stirring up division. Let's get Christians and gays to fight, what fun. NOT. This student is unwilling to comply with the terms of her program.

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.

The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.

Immie

 

[Coyote]

Great posts on this topic, Immie, unfortunately there isn't anyone here that is capable of understanding logic and common sense and are willing to dismiss facts in order to validate their own inaccurate view points.

Great posts by people you agree with. I thought we were having a discussion and all sides would be considered. I have knocked myself out posting ACA and APA guidelines and information about how to counsel gays and lesbians. Clearly, Ms Keeton is unwilling to meet the ethics of the counseling profession.

However, up until the post that I am now quoting, you have not yet shown a hairs breadth of evidence that Ms. Keeton would violate any of those guidelines. You keep claiming that she would and that she has said she would, but none of the articles about this case have actually said that.

I am beginning to think that you guys think she is a liar for no other reason than that she is a Christian.

Immie

But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: “[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”

Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.

Does Keeton deny saying that?

Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.

 

[Coyote]

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.

The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.

Immie

Qualifications for a higher degree like MS/Phd require more than coursework. Coursework is only a portion of it. A student can ace the course work and still fail to defend a thesis or pass a stringent requirements of a practicum and it is at that point where she has to demonstrate that she has the ability to counsel patients in accordance with the standards of her profession. She can't simply pass on coursework alone.

 

[THE LIGHT]

What beliefs? Link please.

Jeezum. Why do you guys keep building strawmen? The school is not imposing any "beliefs" - she enrolled in a professional program, one that has certain professional standards that have to be met in order to be accredited. If her beliefs clash with those standards there are many other programs she could have chosen. In fact - one wonders why she didn't? At a Master's level, she clearly must be aware of the professional standards and requirements of her chosen field.




She can choose to practice a business in any way she sees fit. Please - show me how she can't.

What she CAN'T do, is gain a degree under false pretenses. If she is incapable of meeting the conditions of the certification for the profession why on earth should she be given a special status and granted it?

Standards don't set themselves.

And that is relevant to the issue - how?

Point being, those who wrote the standards chose to impose their beliefs upon those getting accredited by being bigoted towards the beliefs of Christians.

 

[Father Time]

Standards don't set themselves.

And that is relevant to the issue - how?

Point being, those who wrote the standards chose to impose their beliefs upon those getting accredited by being bigoted towards the beliefs of Christians.

Yes those people deliberately made it so that most Americans would not be qualified to be counselors even after training.

 

[hipeter924]

And that is relevant to the issue - how?

Point being, those who wrote the standards chose to impose their beliefs upon those getting accredited by being bigoted towards the beliefs of Christians.

Yes those people deliberately made it so that most Americans would not be qualified to be counselors even after training.

The real problem here is everyone wants their own way on any issue but there is always a middle ground. People should be free to say or express their religious views (or any views) in public just that it should end at passing laws that support any particular religion or go towards establishing a theocratic state or the reverse and making the US state atheist.

The founders and the first people to the US wanted to escape theocracy and at the same time powerful controlling governments they had back in Europe. That's the truth of the matter, not a secular state but one without religious favoritism or control.

One thing I don't like is the 'in god we trust' thing especially on coins as it was put on during the communist era thus it could be removed on the grounds it wasn't there in the first place, and the founders established the US without it.

Now that's the constitution the founders wanted, if people want to change it they would have to amend the constitution in a way that is against what the writers of the constitution itself wanted.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.

The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.

Immie

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

 

[bodecea]

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.

The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.

Immie

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.

The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.

Immie

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.

Keeton notes that the professors told her that they wanted her to change her view that her moral system was right for everybody. She was told that what they wanted her to do was change to a position that while her moral views may be fine for her, she should not expect others to conform to those views.

Frankly, I think Keeton is a pawn in the Alliance Defense Fund's game.

Here's a link to Keeton's complaint:
http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

Here is Keeton's own words:

"I think the Bible’s teaching is true for all people, and it shows the right way to live."

Here is her professors response:

" I do not expect you to change your personal beliefs and values. What is the issue is if you believe your personal beliefs and values should be the same beliefs and values for all people. This is the unethical part—applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own."