Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Newby]

Great posts on this topic, Immie, unfortunately there isn't anyone here that is capable of understanding logic and common sense and are willing to dismiss facts in order to validate their own inaccurate view points.

Great posts by people you agree with. I thought we were having a discussion and all sides would be considered.

You have yet to prove that she would be intolerant or force her views on anyone that was a patient or client of hers. All of your posts are based on assumptions and are contrary to her very own words on the topic.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It would be nice if just one person on here with this point of view would prove that she ever intended to make anyone change through her professional work. You are all on a witch hunt based on hearsay and without any facts. What's sad is that the people with this stance are doing exactly to her what they didn't want done to the gay community, discrimination. Guess you aren't so different after all, you're all no better than the anti-gay crowd, it's your way or the highway and you're willing to use official organizations and institutions to force your way on those that don't agree. How are you any different from the earlier generations who did the very same thing to keep gays quiet and in the closet? Sadly, you're not.

The irony is this student wants to keep intolerant views while claiming she is the victim of intolerance.

Even if you believe she is intolerant, you are no more tolerant of her than she is of you. Why is it okay for you to be intolerant but she is not. She is making judgements about your lifestyle and seeing it in a negative light just the same as you are making judgements of hers and seeing her in a negative light. Why are you right and she is wrong? The point is, Sky, that she is FREE to feel the way that she does as you are FREE to feel the way that you do. You cannot impose your feelings and thoughts and force another to feel and think the same way.

Answer a simple question Sky. Do you feel that she has the right to hold whatever beliefs about homosexuality that she wants?

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program at a Christian college. The bible means more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession. I salute her conviction. I just don't think she belongs in this counseling program.

 

[Newby]

The irony is this student wants to keep intolerant views while claiming she is the victim of intolerance.

Even if you believe she is intolerant, you are no more tolerant of her than she is of you. Why is it okay for you to be intolerant but she is not. She is making judgements about your lifestyle and seeing it in a negative light just the same as you are making judgements of hers and seeing her in a negative light. Why are you right and she is wrong? The point is, Sky, that she is FREE to feel the way that she does as you are FREE to feel the way that you do. You cannot impose your feelings and thoughts and force another to feel and think the same way.

Answer a simple question Sky. Do you feel that she has the right to hold whatever beliefs about homosexuality that she wants?

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program if Christian beliefs mean more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession.

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Even if you believe she is intolerant, you are no more tolerant of her than she is of you. Why is it okay for you to be intolerant but she is not. She is making judgements about your lifestyle and seeing it in a negative light just the same as you are making judgements of hers and seeing her in a negative light. Why are you right and she is wrong? The point is, Sky, that she is FREE to feel the way that she does as you are FREE to feel the way that you do. You cannot impose your feelings and thoughts and force another to feel and think the same way.

Answer a simple question Sky. Do you feel that she has the right to hold whatever beliefs about homosexuality that she wants?

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program if Christian beliefs mean more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession.

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

I see malpractice.

 

[Newby]

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program if Christian beliefs mean more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession.

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

 

[Sky Dancer]

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

I didn't do anything to her Newby. The school noticed she isn't in step with the ethics of her profession and they asked her to change that. She isn't willing to.

I have included the ehtics of the APA, the ACA, and a few other sources about how to counsel gays and lesbians.

Ms Keeton has zero cultural competency to work with gays and lesbians. The school has just cause to ask her to change her rhetoric.

As far as I'm concerned she can have her degree. I just pray no gay or lesbian meets up with her in counseling.

 

[AllieBaba]

The irony is this student wants to keep intolerant views while claiming she is the victim of intolerance.

Even if you believe she is intolerant, you are no more tolerant of her than she is of you. Why is it okay for you to be intolerant but she is not. She is making judgements about your lifestyle and seeing it in a negative light just the same as you are making judgements of hers and seeing her in a negative light. Why are you right and she is wrong? The point is, Sky, that she is FREE to feel the way that she does as you are FREE to feel the way that you do. You cannot impose your feelings and thoughts and force another to feel and think the same way.

Answer a simple question Sky. Do you feel that she has the right to hold whatever beliefs about homosexuality that she wants?

Yes. She has the right to her beliefs. She does not have the right to whip out the Bible, instead of abiding by ACA and APA guidelines.

I've said all along she would be better off graduating from a minister program at a Christian college. The bible means more to her than the ethics of the counseling profession. I salute her conviction. I just don't think she belongs in this counseling program.

It doesn't matter what you think about it Sky. You don't get to determine what schools kids attend based on their personal beliefs. You would be "better off" attending wholly homosexual and Buddhist schools, if you were attending school, as well. So what? Who has the right to insist you do? Who has the right to exclude you from any school you want to attend based on your sexuality and your religion?

BTW, you have NEVER PROVIDED EVIDENCE SHE'S NOT ABIDING BY ACA GUIDELINES, or that it's her intention to violate them. You're just spouting imaginary crap based on your own bias against her stated religious beliefs. That's what we call bigotry. When you talk about forcing people of certain religions into "special" schools and programs and denying them access to the programs they WANT to attend, that's persecution.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You haven't proven that she would do such in a professional session with a patient, nor has she done so. It is pure speculation on your part and you are charging her guilty without any action on her part to warrant it.

I see it similar to this. You are an active voice against the catholic church. There is a certain percentage of recidivism of sexual abuse when one has been abused as a child themselves. So, should all of those people abused by Catholic priests be instantly barred from any professional interaction with children throughout their entire adult lives because they themselves were molested as children? You would answer, I hope, of course not, they haven't done anything to take such a measure. That is no different than condemning this woman and not giving her the degree she earned, something for which she has PAID for, when she hasn't done anything to deserve it. When or if she would ever violate any ethics in a professional capacity with a patient, then you would have a point, until then you do not. And in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

What about the rights of a vulnerable gay or lesbian client? Do they have the right to go into a counseling office and not hear that the bible thinks they are wrong?

She isn't willing to become a pastoral counselor. She wants to mainstream her conversion agenda.

 

[AllieBaba]

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

I didn't do anything to her Newby. The school noticed she isn't in step with the ethics of her profession and they asked her to change that. She isn't willing to.

I have included the ehtics of the APA, the ACA, and a few other sources about how to counsel gays and lesbians.

Ms Keeton has zero cultural competency to work with gays and lesbians. The school has just cause to ask her to change her rhetoric.

As far as I'm concerned she can have her degree. I just pray no gay or lesbian meets up with her in counseling.

Until now, NOBODY has mentioned ethics violations. There have been none.

Another lie by Sky.

 

[Newby]

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

I didn't do anything to her Newby. The school noticed she isn't in step with the ethics of her profession and they asked her to change that. She isn't willing to.

I have included the ehtics of the APA, the ACA, and a few other sources about how to counsel gays and lesbians.

Ms Keeton has zero cultural competency to work with gays and lesbians.

As far as I'm concerned she can have her degree. I just pray no gay or lesbian meets up with her in counseling.

No, you haven't done anything, but you seem to agree that she should have her degree taken away from her whenever she's worked for it, earned it, and paid the school a great deal of money for it, and hasn't done anything to deserve it being taken away from her.

Who says that she'll work with gays and lesbians down the road? Who's to say that she will be anything other than completely professional with them?

I don't even agree with her opinions, Sky, but I will defend her right to have them and to not be charged guilty before she's done anything wrong. That's the wrong road for this country to be going down, and has far greater implications than just this one scenario if this ruling is allowed to stand.

 

[AllieBaba]

Please show evidence of where the school asked her to change "rhetoric".

That hasn't happened either.

Even if it had, it's a violation of free speech.

But you've proven you're okay with restricting freedom of speech as well as freedom of religion. You go, Sky.

 

[Newby]

She isn't willing to abide by the ethics of the counseling profession and is unwilling to change. Period. She isn't willing to learn to be tolerant of others who are different from her. I can just see some lesbian going to her for relationship counseling and being told she has an 'identity disorder' and God says her lifestyle is wrong.

You don't see a problem with that?

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

What about the rights of a vulnerable gay or lesbian client? Do they have the right to go into a counseling office and not hear that the bible thinks they are wrong?

She isn't willing to become a pastoral counselor. She wants to mainstream her conversion agenda.

Again, you have no idea that is what she will do, you are speculating on what her future actions may be and are willing to take her rights away right now because of that. That's not right, I hope you can see that.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, you are accusing her of some future action and taking her rights away today based on your opinion of what she may do down the road. Since when doesn't any American have a problem with that? What else will be next? Like I said, someone found to have been molested as a child may someday down the road molest a child themselves, therefore their future rights to be around children should be taken away. What kind of crap is that?

What about the rights of a vulnerable gay or lesbian client? Do they have the right to go into a counseling office and not hear that the bible thinks they are wrong?

She isn't willing to become a pastoral counselor. She wants to mainstream her conversion agenda.

Again, you have no idea that is what she will do, you are speculating on what her future actions may be and are willing to take her rights away right now because of that. That's not right, I hope you can see that.

I hope you can see that she didn't come to the attention of her department by accident. Her views are very extreme and she has been very vocal about them and about her unwilling to tone down her intolerance even a notch.

 

[bodecea]

Partisan?

What kind of one-sided, half-witted, partisan objects to exposing the inequities of your said as some sort of defense?

"Oh, no...you're so naughty for exposing the intolerance of the left!!"


Wake up- Sky- you should have posted this OP if you stand for tolerance and/or justice.

Wake up yourself. Your only interest is in stirring up division. Let's get Christians and gays to fight, what fun. NOT. This student is unwilling to comply with the terms of her program.

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

 

[Newby]

What about the rights of a vulnerable gay or lesbian client? Do they have the right to go into a counseling office and not hear that the bible thinks they are wrong?

She isn't willing to become a pastoral counselor. She wants to mainstream her conversion agenda.

Again, you have no idea that is what she will do, you are speculating on what her future actions may be and are willing to take her rights away right now because of that. That's not right, I hope you can see that.

I hope you can see that she didn't come to the attention of her department by accident. Her views are very extreme and she has been very vocal about them and about her unwilling to tone down her intolerance even a notch.

That's all irrelevant until she actually does something wrong. You can't condemn her based on what she might do down the road.

 

[Newby]

Wake up yourself. Your only interest is in stirring up division. Let's get Christians and gays to fight, what fun. NOT. This student is unwilling to comply with the terms of her program.

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

No one has yet shown what school credential she hasn't met, it's all speculation.

 

[Coyote]

"Anderson-Wiley confirmed that Miss Keeton will not be able to successfully complete the remediation plan and thus complete the (Augusta State University) counseling program unless she commits to affirming the propriety of gay and lesbian relationships if such an opportunity arises in her future professional efforts," it continued. "

Key term: this is relevant only to her professional efforts - NOT to her beliefs - she can believe what ever the hell she wants. Just like a doctor can't suggest to a patient that they use faith healing.

No shit.
So until she either states that she's going to dissuade people from being gay, or she is accused of unethical conduct, she shouldn't be drawn and quartered.

Thank you for agreeing. Because what she is being required to do is change her beliefs, and state that she has done so.

She's not being drawn and quartered.

She is not being required to change her beliefs - in fact, nowhere (other than her own alleged claims) is there any evidence that she is being required to to so.

She is being required to adhere to a professional standard - the same standard that everyone in that profession must adhere to (and given that a substantial majority of our country is Christian we can assume that most of these counselors are too).

While she claims to be willing to, from one side of her mouth - she does not follow that amongst her peers according to student statements. The degree program would be put at risk if they graduated someone unwilling or unable to meet those standards - particularly since counseling works with a very vulnerable group of people. They are not outright "failing her" - they are giving her a chance to learn more about one of the groups she could end up counseling and how to counsel them. It's not enough to say - ok, I'll follow these standards - she has to show she can do it by her actions. That is how degree programs work. She has not done that at this point.

At no point has the university said she must recant her personal religious views - if you continue to insist on that - provide proof.

 

[Coyote]

I'm wondering how it prohibited someone's religious practice not to be able to discriminate.

And when did it become a requirement that anyone tolerate anyone else's bigotry?

Last I checked, there was nothing in the practice of christianity which requored one to be a homophobe.

*shrug*

There isn't.
And she isn't.
She hasn't declared she dislikes homosexuals. She hasn't stated she won't treat homosexuals, or that she would treat them using method frowned upon by the ACA.
She hasn't in any way evidenced bigotry against homosexuals.

She simply doesn't agree with the CURRENTLY TOUTED theory that homosexuality is a "state of being". Pretty simple. At one time, she would have been pilloried because she didn't think homosexuality was a mental illness (which she doesn't believe, either, according to the material we have available). She thinks it's a choice. Big whoop, lots of people think that. Doctors believe it, genetecists believe it, jet pilots believe it, many gays believe it.

So what? How does that make them homophobic?

It doesn't. It's just that anyone who doesnt' agree with the prescribed mantra must be villified. Anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist. And anyone who dares to think homosexuality is a choice is a homophobe.

It's ridiculous and a sign that our society is being taken over by fascists.

I'm glad you said that.

Isn't that theory a pretty major one, and the one accepted by her profession?

 

[bodecea]

How is the university not 'stirring up division' by trying to refuse the credentials of an education that they were paid for? Where is their tolerance for her views? I also believe from reading the other thread on this that she stated that she wouldn't force her personal views while working as a councelor?

Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?

No one has yet shown what school credential she hasn't met, it's all speculation.

Um...the school...the one that assigns the credential process...they are the ones saying she hasn't met the criteria. Tell us who else makes that decision.

 

[bodecea]

Key term: this is relevant only to her professional efforts - NOT to her beliefs - she can believe what ever the hell she wants. Just like a doctor can't suggest to a patient that they use faith healing.

No shit.
So until she either states that she's going to dissuade people from being gay, or she is accused of unethical conduct, she shouldn't be drawn and quartered.

Thank you for agreeing. Because what she is being required to do is change her beliefs, and state that she has done so.

She's not being drawn and quartered.

She is not being required to change her beliefs - in fact, nowhere (other than her own alleged claims) is there any evidence that she is being required to to so.

She is being required to adhere to a professional standard - the same standard that everyone in that profession must adhere to (and given that a substantial majority of our country is Christian we can assume that most of these counselors are too).

While she claims to be willing to, from one side of her mouth - she does not follow that amongst her peers according to student statements. The degree program would be put at risk if they graduated someone unwilling or unable to meet those standards - particularly since counseling works with a very vulnerable group of people. They are not outright "failing her" - they are giving her a chance to learn more about one of the groups she could end up counseling and how to counsel them. It's not enough to say - ok, I'll follow these standards - she has to show she can do it by her actions. That is how degree programs work. She has not done that at this point.

At no point has the university said she must recant her personal religious views - if you continue to insist on that - provide proof.

It's that Martyrdom thing that they seem to enjoy. Note the picture of her sitting there with the open bible. I'm sure that wasn't a posed picture. Not at all.