Tolerance and Bigotry: What happens when the shoe is on the other foot?

[Luddly Neddite]

Go back and read that other idiot's post and see if you can do the math.

The onus lies on you to prove or make your point. When you're challenged to a point, you say "go back and read the other guy's post."

Not how it works.

Since my post was part of a conversation, it's up to you to familiarize yourself with the conversation.

btw, you have dodged plenty of questions in this thread. Clean up your own act.

Every poster has a tell. Every poster has a shtick. Templar's tell is any variant of 'I'm rubber, you're glue'. Where he just starts accusing you of any mistake he just made. His shtick....is to jump into the middle of a conversation he's not a part of and bizarrely demand you justify positions you've never taken. Insisting that you're 'dodging the question' if you don't start beating on the strawman he just raised.

There's very little else to his debate style.

Then, when he loses yet again, he calls you "sir", holds his lacy hanky to his face and flounces away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hate crime? WHAT "hate crime"? Choosing not to associate with someone is now a "hate crime"?

As it happens, I don't generally "tell people" to do anything. It's not really any of my business how people choose to conduct their own lives. Maybe you should give that a try.

You don't have to invite them to your birthday party but you cannot refuse to serve in business.

> If a gay person came into that bakery and wanted to buy muffins, should they have been refused?<
>If the gay person wanted to buy a dozen carnation for a gift, should they have been refused?<
Why is a wedding cake or floral arrangement any different? Do you think they should ask what religion someone is when they order a wedding cake and then refuse because they might be jewish or muslim? Should you refuse to prove arrangements for a hindu wedding?

Please stop telling me, "We made a law that you have to do THIS" as though it means something. The discussion is about what SHOULD be, and what's right and wrong. The only people who think the law dictates morality are those who are incapable of finding morality for themselves. And don't even get me started on "This is moral, because we said so."

Circular logic isn't really logic at all. Someone should have told you.

Every single one of your "conundrums" is an easy, obvious answer . . . except not to you. I find that very revealing.

Love is right, hate is wrong

Telling people that they will get to Heaven, without repentance, is wrong, and evil. You are leading people to their death.

I lead them to repentance in Jesus Christ, which will save them, and forgive them.

Which is hateful?

You don't hold the keys to heaven or hell. It is not your job to decide where individuals go, if there is any place to go to. To terrorize people or treat them with prejudice makes you the criminal, not them.

We are all equal in this country and before god if there is one. Stop playing god, or judge.
Two thirds of the people on earth don't believe in Jesus but most of good loving people. Most people like to believe in some form of god but even those who don't can still be giving, caring people. If there is a god he is god for all people, not just those who follow your limited form of christanty and prejudice.
It is not your job to threaten or terrorize those who you believe are somehow wrong. Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone.

Thanks for the sermon, Billy Graham. Hey, remind me when it was that anyone said, "Gosh, I'm dying to be told what to believe and how to behave by some hypocritical numbnuts on the Internet".

Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone. Your words. Are they universal, or just for those who aren't as "enlightened" about the "true" religion as you are, and therefore enabled to judge everyone else for judging "the wrong way"?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Please stop telling me, "We made a law that you have to do THIS" as though it means something. The discussion is about what SHOULD be, and what's right and wrong. The only people who think the law dictates morality are those who are incapable of finding morality for themselves. And don't even get me started on "This is moral, because we said so."

Circular logic isn't really logic at all. Someone should have told you.

Every single one of your "conundrums" is an easy, obvious answer . . . except not to you. I find that very revealing.

Our laws are for all people not just for one church or book. Churches do not dictate to the nation what is or not a crime. You do not have a right to reject people from your business or service because of what they are. Hate crimes are not acceptable. We accept all people from all places and faiths.
If accepting people who are gay is such a problem for you, you have the right to leave. You do not have a right to insult or threaten them in this life or the next. It is not your place to decide what is a sin. If god wants to judge, let it be god's decision, not yours.
All people of race, gender, religion, etc. are equal and have the same rights. Hate speech is not a right, it is a crime. Hate speech is not free speech. We have a responsibility for what we say. Doing harm against others is not right, verbally or physically.
Gays are not sinners and you trying to say they are is abusive and criminal.
If you cannot tolerate them you are the bigot. If you can't live in the same world with them find a place where there are no gays. It probably won't have christians either. See how far your free speech and condemning other people as sinners flies there. If you don't hold your tongue, you might loose your head.
Love from god should be unconditional, otherwise he/it is not a just god. Gays are the way god made them and to pretend otherwise would be a lie, which is also a sin in your book.
The only sin is the hate of bigots that can't find the love in their heart to accept all people for who and what they are.

Actually, everything about our country was founded in faith, including our justice system.

I do not care about your excuses for sin. I've heard the exact same excuse by men cheating on their wives. Literally, verbatim. "G-d made me to cheat on my wife, and to pretend otherwise would be a lie".

We have a sin nature, which drives us to do what is wrong. G-d expects us to fight against that evil, and repent.

G-d never accepted people for who thy are, and what they are. That is not found anywhere at any point in the Bible. Not one verse, new or old testament makes that claim.

On the right to faith but not on any one faith. Most of the founding fathers were deists.
Jefferson edited the NT to form his own bible.
Franklin was a member of most churches, even the jewish synagogue, but rarely attended.

Our justice system represents every major faith as well as Hammurabi on the courthouse. Laws are based on what is right, not what any book alone tells us is the law. Religion might help as a guideline but it does not dictate to the country what the law should be.

You make up what you think is right. Prove what you say is right.

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians
The Jefferson Bible
Benjamin Franklin - New World Encyclopedia
The 18 Law Givers Shown In The Supreme Court Room Of The United States

I don't have to make these things up

Everyone should know these things

Maybe you should spend less time thinking about how Christianity should be rewritten to live up to your "far superior" morality, and give a little more thought to . . . I don't know, thinking? Just as Christian doctrine is not what you think it is, the definition of the word "prove" is clearly not what you think it is. Do you know what posting some dumbshit Internet blog proves? That there's a dumbshit Internet blog, and that you're ignorant enough to read and believe it.

 

[Andylusion]

Really couldn't care less what Jefferson said on this matter. Thanks.

G-d is far above Jefferson on the authority scale. Sorry.

This clown invokes the founders when he thinks it helps his argument, then throws them overboard when i'ts proven they don't.

Religious freedom is one of the found concepts this country was built on. True or false?

Prior statement being true means that every single thing the founding fathers said was also correct. True or false?

Yes of course I do.

See, again, it's a matter of authority. You place authority in man. So and so said X, so X must mean something.

I don't. G-d is the only real authority. When man happens to agree with G-d, I cite that. When disagrees with G-d, I ignore it.

If you worked for the White House... let's say... and the president says he wants you to do X. Then the Vice President comes in and says he does not want you doing X. Then the Speaker of the House, comes in and says you should do X.

Now you are under the authority of the Vice President, and the Speaker of the House. Yet you in fact, do X. Are you picking and choosing arbitrarily? No. Because the ultimate authority for you would still be the President. You are not following orders when they support your cause, and ignoring them when they don't.

The ultimate authority, said to do X. You are ignoring the VP, because his order in contrary to the ultimate authority. You are not following the order of House Speaker, just because it fits with what you believe. You are doing it because it abides by the ultimate authority.

Well for a Christian, such as myself... there is one authority above all the authority of men. That is G-d. He is the ultimate authority. Higher than the President, the constitution, and founding fathers, and any human construct.

So when someone says something that upholds the ultimate authority... yeah I cite. And when something goes against the ultimate authority... yeah I ignore it.

This is what Christianity is supposed to be. It was for the Romans... that's why they killed Christians. It was for the people in Libya, that's why ISIS beheaded them. If those people, and millions of others can give their lives for their faith, I can sure put up with some tiny people trying to insult me, or worse. Maybe you'll sue me, or fine me, or even jail me. But you'll never stop us.

People like you have been predicting the end of Christianity for 2,000 years. Your attempts haven't been very successful thus far, and won't be in the future. This generation will never pass away until the end of time.

Why did Catholics kill Protestants for heresy?

Other than making my point, that Protestants were willing to die for their Christian belief, I'm not sure what other value that has to the topic.

Ask a Catholic. I'm not one.

How can Christianity be the one true faith if Catholics are Christians, Protestants are Christians,

and they disagree on a long list of issues?

We already covered this. I'm not even sure how you can ask the question. Democrats disagree with each other, all the time. Yet they are still all democrats. Scott Walker is having a disagreement with the Republicans in the state government right now, and yet they are all democrats.

I disagree with my father on issues, and I have never thought "we can't possibly be from the same family now!".

To review what I already said. There are aspects of the Bible, that are undeniable to the faith. For example, Jesus Christ was G-d. Jesus Christ died on a cross. Jesus raised himself from the dead.

These are fundamentals to Biblical faith. These are not all of them, as there are more, but these are a few. Any "christian" small c, that denies any of those, is simply not a Christian.

There are some 'christian' sects, that actually deny this. They are simply not Christian.

Now there are other Christian groups, that agree with these fundamentals, but also have other things they believe. Such as you can't go see movies in the movie theater.

These are minor differences, unimportant to the faith. It's not in the Bible. So, we can disagree on this minor unimportant difference, and still both be part of the faith.

Some people believe they should shave their heads, and stay in special groups to do the work of G-d.

I don't believe that. Does that mean they are not follow G-d? To answer that, does the Bible say what they are doing is right? No. Does the Bible say what they are doing is wrong? No. So the fact they do that, is not a problem for me. As long as they believe in Jesus Christ risen from the dead, we're brothers and sisters in G-d's family.

It's all good. It is entirely possible that two groups of people can completely disagree on minor things like life style and how they dress, and still be completely united in the fundamentals of Jesus Christ, son of the living G-d.

And both are in the one true faith. The one true faith, is Jesus Christ. All the other side aspects, are just that.

Now if you violate the fundamentals, then you are not in the faith. Jesus Christ risen from the dead.

 

[aris2chat]

You don't have to invite them to your birthday party but you cannot refuse to serve in business.

> If a gay person came into that bakery and wanted to buy muffins, should they have been refused?<
>If the gay person wanted to buy a dozen carnation for a gift, should they have been refused?<
Why is a wedding cake or floral arrangement any different? Do you think they should ask what religion someone is when they order a wedding cake and then refuse because they might be jewish or muslim? Should you refuse to prove arrangements for a hindu wedding?

Please stop telling me, "We made a law that you have to do THIS" as though it means something. The discussion is about what SHOULD be, and what's right and wrong. The only people who think the law dictates morality are those who are incapable of finding morality for themselves. And don't even get me started on "This is moral, because we said so."

Circular logic isn't really logic at all. Someone should have told you.

Every single one of your "conundrums" is an easy, obvious answer . . . except not to you. I find that very revealing.

Love is right, hate is wrong

Telling people that they will get to Heaven, without repentance, is wrong, and evil. You are leading people to their death.

I lead them to repentance in Jesus Christ, which will save them, and forgive them.

Which is hateful?

You don't hold the keys to heaven or hell. It is not your job to decide where individuals go, if there is any place to go to. To terrorize people or treat them with prejudice makes you the criminal, not them.

We are all equal in this country and before god if there is one. Stop playing god, or judge.
Two thirds of the people on earth don't believe in Jesus but most of good loving people. Most people like to believe in some form of god but even those who don't can still be giving, caring people. If there is a god he is god for all people, not just those who follow your limited form of christanty and prejudice.
It is not your job to threaten or terrorize those who you believe are somehow wrong. Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone.

Thanks for the sermon, Billy Graham. Hey, remind me when it was that anyone said, "Gosh, I'm dying to be told what to believe and how to behave by some hypocritical numbnuts on the Internet".

Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone. Your words. Are they universal, or just for those who aren't as "enlightened" about the "true" religion as you are, and therefore enabled to judge everyone else for judging "the wrong way"?

but that is precisely what you are saying when you are intolerant of others who don't go to your church or hold your exact ideas.

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.
Do what you want but harm none. Worry for your own soul and don't judge others.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Please stop telling me, "We made a law that you have to do THIS" as though it means something. The discussion is about what SHOULD be, and what's right and wrong. The only people who think the law dictates morality are those who are incapable of finding morality for themselves. And don't even get me started on "This is moral, because we said so."

Circular logic isn't really logic at all. Someone should have told you.

Every single one of your "conundrums" is an easy, obvious answer . . . except not to you. I find that very revealing.

Love is right, hate is wrong

Telling people that they will get to Heaven, without repentance, is wrong, and evil. You are leading people to their death.

I lead them to repentance in Jesus Christ, which will save them, and forgive them.

Which is hateful?

You don't hold the keys to heaven or hell. It is not your job to decide where individuals go, if there is any place to go to. To terrorize people or treat them with prejudice makes you the criminal, not them.

We are all equal in this country and before god if there is one. Stop playing god, or judge.
Two thirds of the people on earth don't believe in Jesus but most of good loving people. Most people like to believe in some form of god but even those who don't can still be giving, caring people. If there is a god he is god for all people, not just those who follow your limited form of christanty and prejudice.
It is not your job to threaten or terrorize those who you believe are somehow wrong. Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone.

Thanks for the sermon, Billy Graham. Hey, remind me when it was that anyone said, "Gosh, I'm dying to be told what to believe and how to behave by some hypocritical numbnuts on the Internet".

Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone. Your words. Are they universal, or just for those who aren't as "enlightened" about the "true" religion as you are, and therefore enabled to judge everyone else for judging "the wrong way"?

but that is precisely what you are saying when you are intolerant of others who don't go to your church or hold your exact ideas.

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.
Do what you want but harm none. Worry for your own soul and don't judge others.

See, here's the thing, Chuckles. I'M not the one touting the wonders of "tolerance" and holding myself out as a shining example thereof. YOU are.

Furthermore, hypocrite, I haven't "cursed them to hell". That's just an assumption you keep making and projecting onto others. What I'm doing - unlike you - is exactly what I say: I mind my own business. I genuinely have no investment whatsoever in what other people do or think, so long as they do me the courtesy of ALLOWING me to mind my own business. This would be because - again unlike you - I am not a hypocrite.

Also, what is this "line" I would have crossed by "cursing them to hell", had I actually done so? The line where you feel entitled to thrust yourself into my religion and rewrite it and basically be a pride-filled, self-righteous hypocrite who's two seconds away from breaking his own wrist, patting himself on the back for how much holier he is than all those unwashed heathens he's correcting?

Again I ask: are your words universal? Because I have yet to see a single post out of you that hasn't been filled with judgement and a level of nosiness into others' lives that would leave Gladys Kravitz hyperventilating. Tend to that beam in your eye, and stop preaching about the splinter you think you see in mine.

 

[TemplarKormac]

but that is precisely what you are saying when you are intolerant of others who don't go to your church or hold your exact ideas.

Riddle me this:

What is it you're doing right now? You are being intolerant of others "who don't go to your church" or "hold your exact ideas." If you so strongly believe what you believe, create your own denomination of Christianity and leave us alone.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.

Crossing a line is telling others what to believe, or tolerate something they don't believe in. You let them do that on their own terms. Not yours.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

I didn't create the universe, God did. God is the master of this Universe. Thus, I am not the center of any universe, I just live in one. Perhaps aris needs to understand that.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

I didn't create the universe, God did. God is the master of this Universe. Thus, I am not the center of any universe, I just live in one. Perhaps aris needs to understand that.

Aris needs to understand a lot of things, first and foremost how much contempt he's engendering for his blatant hypocrisy when he thinks he's impressing everyone with some apocryphal "scholarly aptitude".

 

[TemplarKormac]

Aris needs to understand a lot of things, first and foremost how much contempt he's engendering for his blatant hypocrisy when he thinks he's impressing everyone with some apocryphal "scholarly aptitude".

Nihilism. A sort of religiously motivated nihilism, or what aris's argument is.

When in the act of championing a cause, you work to alienate the beliefs those who don't believe in it, you breed contempt and hatred rather than support and understanding.

 

[aris2chat]

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.

Crossing a line is telling others what to believe, or tolerate something they don't believe in. You let them do that on their own terms. Not yours.

KKK didn't tolerate blacks and Nazis didn't tolerate jews and fundamentalist muslims don't tolerate christians, but you are OK with that? When a group like ISIS decides to behead you for your christian beliefs, we should just cheer them on and say let it be?

I've seen the devastation of your kind of hate and intolerance has caused. Not a fan. You think this is god's will? Not a fan of your view of god. Fortunately not all the world is like you. Having houses of worship destroyed because god told someone it was his will, or so they claim is more the work of a shaitan than a creator god worthy of respect and worship. When you become of the victim of your type of religious belief, perhaps you will have a revelation for the better.

So no, I don't have respect for your form of religions 'tolerance'. Hate of those who think differently from you should not be permitted, even those who choose not to believe in a god at all. It is not christian, it is not what Jesus taught, it is not what religion should be about.

 

[aris2chat]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

I didn't create the universe, God did. God is the master of this Universe. Thus, I am not the center of any universe, I just live in one. Perhaps aris needs to understand that.

so do all the other people

 

[Andylusion]

Please stop telling me, "We made a law that you have to do THIS" as though it means something. The discussion is about what SHOULD be, and what's right and wrong. The only people who think the law dictates morality are those who are incapable of finding morality for themselves. And don't even get me started on "This is moral, because we said so."

Circular logic isn't really logic at all. Someone should have told you.

Every single one of your "conundrums" is an easy, obvious answer . . . except not to you. I find that very revealing.

Love is right, hate is wrong

Telling people that they will get to Heaven, without repentance, is wrong, and evil. You are leading people to their death.

I lead them to repentance in Jesus Christ, which will save them, and forgive them.

Which is hateful?

You don't hold the keys to heaven or hell. It is not your job to decide where individuals go, if there is any place to go to. To terrorize people or treat them with prejudice makes you the criminal, not them.

We are all equal in this country and before god if there is one. Stop playing god, or judge.
Two thirds of the people on earth don't believe in Jesus but most of good loving people. Most people like to believe in some form of god but even those who don't can still be giving, caring people. If there is a god he is god for all people, not just those who follow your limited form of christanty and prejudice.
It is not your job to threaten or terrorize those who you believe are somehow wrong. Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone.

Thanks for the sermon, Billy Graham. Hey, remind me when it was that anyone said, "Gosh, I'm dying to be told what to believe and how to behave by some hypocritical numbnuts on the Internet".

Worry about your own sin and leave everyone else alone. Your words. Are they universal, or just for those who aren't as "enlightened" about the "true" religion as you are, and therefore enabled to judge everyone else for judging "the wrong way"?

but that is precisely what you are saying when you are intolerant of others who don't go to your church or hold your exact ideas.

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.
Do what you want but harm none. Worry for your own soul and don't judge others.

Right and who are you again? Why do I care what you think? Does that 'worry about your own soul and don't judge others' only apply to other people, or you as well?

If it does, then why are you judging us?

 

[Cecilie1200]

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.

Crossing a line is telling others what to believe, or tolerate something they don't believe in. You let them do that on their own terms. Not yours.

KKK didn't tolerate blacks and Nazis didn't tolerate jews and fundamentalist muslims don't tolerate christians, but you are OK with that? When a group like ISIS decides to behead you for your christian beliefs, we should just cheer them on and say let it be?

I've seen the devastation of your kind of hate and intolerance has caused. Not a fan. You think this is god's will? Not a fan of your view of god. Fortunately not all the world is like you. Having houses of worship destroyed because god told someone it was his will, or so they claim is more the work of a shaitan than a creator god worthy of respect and worship. When you become of the victim of your type of religious belief, perhaps you will have a revelation for the better.

So no, I don't have respect for your form of religions 'tolerance'. Hate of those who think differently from you should not be permitted, even those who choose not to believe in a god at all. It is not christian, it is not what Jesus taught, it is not what religion should be about.

You certainly pack a wide spectrum of things into "tolerance" and "intolerance". Methinks you would benefit from broadening your perspective and understanding, not to mention your vocabulary.

What the Klan has done in the past to blacks, and what they would do now if they were more than a handful of shunned, three-toothed hicks, was a lot more than "intolerance". Calling what the Nazis did to Jews and what radical Muslims do to anyone who isn't them "intolerance" is downright obscene.

If all they did was be "intolerant", then yes, I would be okay with that. Doesn't mean I would agree with it. Doesn't mean I would respect them. Just means that "intolerance" - by an educated person's definition - can be "tolerated". Much the same way I tolerate YOUR intolerance to anyone who doesn't toe your self-righteous line.

No one has asked you to respect or "be a fan" of anything. Neither of those actually appears in the real definition of "tolerance", anyway. And, of course, no one here thinks enough of you to give a rat's ass for your respect. I have toenail clippings I value more than your respect.

Once again, you project your assumption that everyone who doesn't think what you decree they should "hates". You should understand that every time you do this, you make yourself look more ridiculous.

I'm still laughing at your vaunted "tolerance" exhibited by the line "what religion should be about". What have I been saying about your intolerant attempts to rewrite other people's beliefs to suit yourself? Really, can you practice what you preach any less than you currently are? It's almost a caricature.

 

[Andylusion]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

I didn't create the universe, God did. God is the master of this Universe. Thus, I am not the center of any universe, I just live in one. Perhaps aris needs to understand that.

so do all the other people

Again... you first. You can't tell all of us what we should do, when you yourself are not doing it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do what you want but harm none.

We will. And if our actions offend someone like you? No harm done.

When you're a self-righteous navel-gazer like Aris, being told that you are not the center of everyone else's universe is the equivalent of a dagger in the heart.

I didn't create the universe, God did. God is the master of this Universe. Thus, I am not the center of any universe, I just live in one. Perhaps aris needs to understand that.

so do all the other people

No, really? Thanks for sharing, Captain Obvious. Such a profound statement of "Duuuuhhh".

 

[NYcarbineer]

You can believe what you want but when that belief is to threaten and attack others or to curse them to hell, it has crossed a line.

Crossing a line is telling others what to believe, or tolerate something they don't believe in. You let them do that on their own terms. Not yours.

You don't have to believe in the speed limit going through your town to obey it. You can believe it ought to be 20 MPH higher.

That doesn't allow you to ignore it out of conscience, liberty, religion, or any other notion.