Thought for the day

[Meriweather]

Go grovel to your statues and swing your rosary goyim guomba

Those who understand the meaning of a prayer shawl and its knots; those who might long to gaze on the Ark of the Covenant and its engravings, can understand those who involve the five senses (such as touch and sight) during worship and meditation. Using statuary, knots, and beads to focus one's worship on God is not at all the same as worshiping any statue or ark.

 

[Avatar4321]

Meriweather the Good News is that people do not have to perish. You understate the sternness of God towards those that will not repent. Do you believe like Jesus that unbelievers will go to hell or not. Why do you think he needed to say this?

Math 11 v 23
Luke 12 v 5
James 3 v 6

Christ spoke most about God's love and forgiveness, of salvation not punishment. I tend to think Christians may focus too much on punishment, especially punishment of unbelievers. This is why believers should remember Luke 12:47-48--

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

This passage in Luke explains why Sodom will be treated lightly, while more was required of Capernaum. In Luke, Jesus is addressing believers, telling them that much will be required of them. James warns of the vileness of the tongue. While you may be seeing the vileness that comes of the tongues of some unbelievers, I see the more vile tongue as the believer who threatens unbelievers with fire and damnation.

Christ did not ask us to proclaim threats. He asked us to proclaim salvation to all the earth, and that there is forgiveness when we repent of our sins. The proper response for those who snark at Christianity is to assure them of God's love, that it is so great that God's "beating" of Christians will surpass the light "beating" given to non-believers. Speak of God's love, His forgiveness, the salvation He offers--and above all, reassure and do not discourage those who have not the gift of faith. (I am not speaking of the wicked, the haters, the evil doers when I say this--but about good people who simply do not have faith and cannot believe.)

We will not have bodies, so it seems "beating" is meant in a more figurative sense. Therefore it seems more likely that God's disappointment in me--and my feelings of being the cause of this disappointment--will weigh more heavily on me, the believer, than it will on any non-believer. I am willing to undergo this weight, this "beating" for the privilege of being given the gift of faith.

why do you say we won't have bodies?

 

[Meriweather]

why do you say we won't have bodies?

It's more the thought that judgment takes place before receiving a glorified body. Clearly, this is something that could be wrong, but giving someone a glorified body to burn or beat doesn't seem quite logical. The purification of the spirit and then a glorified body seems a more logical sequence. How do you see it?

 

[Avatar4321]

Makes sense

 

[hobelim]

It is the heart that God judges, not necessarily its accuracy. For that reason I hold the belief that God accepts those who sincerely worship Him as a carving made by man, as readily as He accepts those who recognize Him as a spiritual being. We have been informed that we cannot know God's ways--His ways are so very different from our own.

We must have been reading a different Bible. The way I read it the worship of God in any material form is forbidden under penalty of death and will never be acceptable to God, the reward will always be death. And I am not talking about physical death. God has no visible shape or material form. To bow down in worship or prayer before any material representation of God will always be the worship of something that is not God.

And the very point of everything that Jesus said and did was that so people could know God, not because God was unknowable. "This is eternal life: knowing he who truly is God." John 17:3.

Yes his ways are higher than 'our' ways and for this reason it is 'our' personal responsibility to ascend to a higher realm of intelligences through the purification of the mind from all that is false, including false beliefs based on irrational assumptions about God, such as the belief that idolators are acceptable to God because of their sincere devotion to God though idolatry, a vile and degrading practice..

Who told you that anyway?

 

[hobelim]

Christianity is not a false religion and the Incarnation, Ascension, Creation miracles and Virgin birth all happened AS DESCRIBED IN SCRIPTURE. There is mockery and unbelief in the way you write - who do you say that Jesus is? Do you deny that God came in the flesh in human history?

Don't be silly. What religion could be more false than a religion that claims that God became a human being? Islam? That's about it.

Jesus was exactly who he said he was, the messiah as described in Deuteronomy 18:18, a Jewish man.

And I do not deny that God came in the flesh during human history. I just understand that flesh is a metaphor for words that form the body of teaching that came from God into the world through Jesus Christ, a man whose mind was opened by God to understand the figurative language and hidden subjects in the divine commands, a higher form of expression that goes over the heads of the superstitious, duplicitous, deceitful and the irrational..Remember? Light was spoken into existence.

"The spirit alone gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are both spirit and life." John 6:63

"Lord, to whom shall we go? your words are words of eternal life. We have faith and know that you are the Holy One of God (a man). John 6:68

The Jewish people have never expected the Moshiach to be anything other than a man.

 

[hobelim]

It's more the thought that judgment takes place before receiving a glorified body. Clearly, this is something that could be wrong, but giving someone a glorified body to burn or beat doesn't seem quite logical. The purification of the spirit and then a glorified body seems a more logical sequence. How do you see it?

What is the spirit if not the mind? The promise is that the pure of mind will see God, not after their death in some mystical body but in their resurrected flesh here and now. Those that rise to life while they still have a physical body are not subject to judgment because they have already passed from death to life and will never know what it is to die. How is it even possible for a person to purify their spirit/mind after they are dead?

Is it really that wise to go through life blindly and hope for the best when you die knowing you will be judged according to your words and deeds when it is possible to escape judgment entirely by purifying your own mind while you still have the opportunity and can then die in peace having already seen God, entered the kingdom of Heaven, reached out your hand, taken, and eaten of the fruit of the tree of life?

 

[Meriweather]

We must have been reading a different Bible. The way I read it the worship of God in any material form is forbidden under penalty of death and will never be acceptable to God, the reward will always be death. And I am not talking about physical death. God has no visible shape or material form. To bow down in worship or prayer before any material representation of God will always be the worship of something that is not God.

And the very point of everything that Jesus said and did was that so people could know God, not because God was unknowable. "This is eternal life: knowing he who truly is God." John 17:3.

Yes his ways are higher than 'our' ways and for this reason it is 'our' personal responsibility to ascend to a higher realm of intelligences through the purification of the mind from all that is false, including false beliefs based on irrational assumptions about God, such as the belief that idolators are acceptable to God because of their sincere devotion to God though idolatry, a vile and degrading practice..

Who told you that anyway?

Take a look at Romans, Chapter 2. Paul speaks of those who do not hear/know the law being judged by what is written on their hearts. If someone does not know the law and believe it is right and necessary to worship a statue as God, then they will be judged by what was written on their hearts. In this chapter Paul also notes that people will be judged by their deeds. Therefore, a good man who follows right and goodness in his life, including worshiping a statue that he has learned is right, can expect a merciful judgment from God.

Nor does the Bible speak against using images for holy things or in holy places. It only forbids the worship of man-made carvings or engravings as though these carvings, images, and engravings were God. We see this clearly in the Bible. For example, note all the places where worship of idols are denounced--and note the engravings on the Ark of the Covenant which represented the presence of God among his people. Did people worship the engraved Ark? Or, did they worship God?

 

[Meriweather]

What is the spirit if not the mind? The promise is that the pure of mind will see God, not after their death in some mystical body but in their resurrected flesh here and now. Those that rise to life while they still have a physical body are not subject to judgment because they have already passed from death to life and will never know what it is to die. How is it even possible for a person to purify their spirit/mind after they are dead?

(orange highlight mine)

Now it is my turn to ask for scripture passage and verse so that I am clear on what you are saying. Can you also provide me with an example people in the past who have risen up to life while they still have a physical body, and never knew what it was like to die?

 

[ImGoing2Heaven]

very poignant on this day above all others

"A silent, invisible, intangible, undetectable ‘god’ is literally indistinguishable from a non-existent ‘god’. It is a source of deep shame and a great embarrassment to our species, that we must still even discuss such primitive, infantile delusions."

Enjoy the darkness and flames, for all eternity

 

[Mindlight]

Meriweather the Good News is that people do not have to perish. You understate the sternness of God towards those that will not repent. Do you believe like Jesus that unbelievers will go to hell or not. Why do you think he needed to say this?

Math 11 v 23
Luke 12 v 5
James 3 v 6

Christ spoke most about God's love and forgiveness, of salvation not punishment. I tend to think Christians may focus too much on punishment, especially punishment of unbelievers. This is why believers should remember Luke 12:47-48--

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

This passage in Luke explains why Sodom will be treated lightly, while more was required of Capernaum. In Luke, Jesus is addressing believers, telling them that much will be required of them. James warns of the vileness of the tongue. While you may be seeing the vileness that comes of the tongues of some unbelievers, I see the more vile tongue as the believer who threatens unbelievers with fire and damnation.

Christ did not ask us to proclaim threats. He asked us to proclaim salvation to all the earth, and that there is forgiveness when we repent of our sins. The proper response for those who snark at Christianity is to assure them of God's love, that it is so great that God's "beating" of Christians will surpass the light "beating" given to non-believers. Speak of God's love, His forgiveness, the salvation He offers--and above all, reassure and do not discourage those who have not the gift of faith. (I am not speaking of the wicked, the haters, the evil doers when I say this--but about good people who simply do not have faith and cannot believe.)

We will not have bodies, so it seems "beating" is meant in a more figurative sense. Therefore it seems more likely that God's disappointment in me--and my feelings of being the cause of this disappointment--will weigh more heavily on me, the believer, than it will on any non-believer. I am willing to undergo this weight, this "beating" for the privilege of being given the gift of faith.

So you do recognise that their are occasions when Jesus was much stronger in how he phrased the choice that people have concerning Him. But you wish to tilt the balance as does the gospels and Pauls letters to the understanding that God prefers to offer his love rather than his anger to people. This of course may well be the correct way for you to witness to those family members you have who struggle honestly with unbelief.

Have you ever been accused of offering a gospel of cheap grace?
Are you a universalist when it comes to salvation?

Whatever discipline that God gives Christians comes in this life surely. Or do you also believe in Purgatory?

 

[Mindlight]

Christianity is not a false religion and the Incarnation, Ascension, Creation miracles and Virgin birth all happened AS DESCRIBED IN SCRIPTURE. There is mockery and unbelief in the way you write - who do you say that Jesus is? Do you deny that God came in the flesh in human history?

Don't be silly. What religion could be more false than a religion that claims that God became a human being? Islam? That's about it.

Jesus was exactly who he said he was, the messiah as described in Deuteronomy 18:18, a Jewish man.

And I do not deny that God came in the flesh during human history. I just understand that flesh is a metaphor for words that form the body of teaching that came from God into the world through Jesus Christ, a man whose mind was opened by God to understand the figurative language and hidden subjects in the divine commands, a higher form of expression that goes over the heads of the superstitious, duplicitous, deceitful and the irrational..Remember? Light was spoken into existence.

"The spirit alone gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are both spirit and life." John 6:63

"Lord, to whom shall we go? your words are words of eternal life. We have faith and know that you are the Holy One of God (a man). John 6:68

The Jewish people have never expected the Moshiach to be anything other than a man.

OK you have made your position clear. It seems to me that you are trying to be too smart in the way you interpret scripture and your allegorical / metaphorical hermeneutic gives you licence to say whatever is convenient. You are more interested in understanding than obeying but as result you stray from the real meaning of the text. The plain meaning of scripture may be more obvious to an illiterate peasant or a child than you. But the bible says this:

1 John 4:2-3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

 

[Meriweather]

So you do recognise that their are occasions when Jesus was much stronger in how he phrased the choice that people have concerning Him. But you wish to tilt the balance as does the gospels and Pauls letters to the understanding that God prefers to offer his love rather than his anger to people. This of course may well be the correct way for you to witness to those family members you have who struggle honestly with unbelief.

I use Christ first. For example, notice I began with what Christ said about beatings. Then you asked for scripture supporting eternal life for non-Christians. I tend to be somewhat of a stickler on context. Notice Jesus' "strong" words were for people who knew him and then rejected him. He did not address atheists or pagans, but noted his particular mission was among the Jews--particularly the lost sheep of Judaism--those too poor to observe the entire law.

Jesus' strongest words were/are for believers who did not/do not give their all.

You are correct: For me our God of love eclipses the angry God that some see. This does not mean love precludes justice, because clearly it does not. It is true that I do not see the Gospel message as being, "God is angry with you..." but rather, "God loves us." Too often those who preach an angry God have God angry with others, but never themselves.

Have you ever been accused of offering a gospel of cheap grace?

Grin. Never. However, I am often accused of ignoring grace entirely and focusing too much on choice and works.

Are you a universalist when it comes to salvation?

No. Universalists believe everyone--eventually even Satan and demons--will be in the kingdom of heaven. They see God's plan as "saving" everyone. I see God's plan as more of a choice. We can choose to join Him and His ways--or we can reject Him and His ways. Some people truly do seem to thrive on evil and hate; serving self and selfishness over serving others and being selfless.

I believe those who choose to live outside the presence of God will know His love and His goodness--but reject it. I do not believe that good people who do not know God (or do not know Him through the "correct" faith) will be condemned to hell.

Whatever discipline that God gives Christians comes in this life surely. Or do you also believe in Purgatory?

Some of the parables Jesus told referenced purgatory (a purification process, or a paying of outstanding debts). Nor can sinful man bear the presence of God. For these two reasons, and also other scriptures that speak of purification after death, it appears that a purification process (purgatory) after death is indeed a reality. Some feel part of the purification process is being freed from the body which is weak and tempts us into sin. But the heart/soul is also responsible for some sins, and a release from the body isn't going to remove sins that stem from heart and soul--hence purification, purging...Purgatory.

 

[hobelim]

We must have been reading a different Bible. The way I read it the worship of God in any material form is forbidden under penalty of death and will never be acceptable to God, the reward will always be death. And I am not talking about physical death. God has no visible shape or material form. To bow down in worship or prayer before any material representation of God will always be the worship of something that is not God.

And the very point of everything that Jesus said and did was that so people could know God, not because God was unknowable. "This is eternal life: knowing he who truly is God." John 17:3.

Yes his ways are higher than 'our' ways and for this reason it is 'our' personal responsibility to ascend to a higher realm of intelligences through the purification of the mind from all that is false, including false beliefs based on irrational assumptions about God, such as the belief that idolators are acceptable to God because of their sincere devotion to God though idolatry, a vile and degrading practice..

Who told you that anyway?

Take a look at Romans, Chapter 2. Paul speaks of those who do not hear/know the law being judged by what is written on their hearts. If someone does not know the law and believe it is right and necessary to worship a statue as God, then they will be judged by what was written on their hearts. In this chapter Paul also notes that people will be judged by their deeds. Therefore, a good man who follows right and goodness in his life, including worshiping a statue that he has learned is right, can expect a merciful judgment from God.

Nor does the Bible speak against using images for holy things or in holy places. It only forbids the worship of man-made carvings or engravings as though these carvings, images, and engravings were God. We see this clearly in the Bible. For example, note all the places where worship of idols are denounced--and note the engravings on the Ark of the Covenant which represented the presence of God among his people. Did people worship the engraved Ark? Or, did they worship God?

I see, you were confused by Paul who contradicted Moses, all the prophets and Jesus himself concerning their proclaimed belief in the permanence of divine Law, whether Jew or Gentile, given by God to be a light to the nations, a light that can never go out codified by law that those who remain in the darkness will never master.

And I agree that the command against idolatry is not a condemnation of art in general but the condemnation of making an image of anything on earth or in heaven, and assuming a submissive posture before it as an expression of devotion love or worship of God..

Jesus said that when you pray you should go into the closet and shut the door and pray to God in secret, meaning when you pray to God, withdraw within your mind and shut your mouth and God who sees what is done in secret will reward you openly.

If you literally go into a closet or a church and start counting rosary beads or lighting candles praying to God while kneeling in front of a half naked and bloody statue of Jesus, you are an idolator, and God will hide his face from you, not listen to your prayer, and your mind will wither and die. Some people remain in the netherworld for decades before they wake up, some never will.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.


"Many shall purify themselves and be refined making their robes shining white , but the wicked shall continue in wickedness and none of them shall understand, only those who are wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10

 

[hobelim]

You are more interested in understanding than obeying

One question for you.

How is it even possible to obey any teaching in the bible that you do not understand?

 

[hobelim]

What is the spirit if not the mind? The promise is that the pure of mind will see God, not after their death in some mystical body but in their resurrected flesh here and now. Those that rise to life while they still have a physical body are not subject to judgment because they have already passed from death to life and will never know what it is to die. How is it even possible for a person to purify their spirit/mind after they are dead?

(orange highlight mine)

Now it is my turn to ask for scripture passage and verse so that I am clear on what you are saying. Can you also provide me with an example people in the past who have risen up to life while they still have a physical body, and never knew what it was like to die?

Verily, I say to you, a time is coming, indeed it is already here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and all who hear will rise to life." john 5:25

“Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" Matthew 21:31

People who will never know what it is to die have been rising from the grave in their physical bodies ever since Jesus was here. I have seen with my own eyes people who will never know what it is to die rising up to life in their physical bodies in places all over the world for as long as I can remember. Apparently many of the Christian dead are doomed to remain in their graves until Jesus returns and drags them out kicking and screaming.

 

[Meriweather]

I see, you were confused by Paul who contradicted Moses, all the prophets and Jesus himself concerning their proclaimed belief in the permanence of divine Law, whether Jew or Gentile, given by God to be a light to the nations, a light that can never go out codified by law that those who remain in the darkness will never master.

Not confused at all. For each scripture passage it is vital to understand not only who the author was, but also his audience and his intended purpose.

And I agree that the command against idolatry is not a condemnation of art in general but the condemnation of making an image of anything on earth or in heaven, and assuming a submissive posture before it as an expression of devotion love or worship of God..

The last part is an attempt of taking scripture and twisting it into something it is not in order to exhibit a "justified" hatred towards others. Scripture tells us to worship with everything that we are (this includes involving our five senses) and everything that is in us. Twisting that into a sneer that it is actual reverence/worship of an image is a falsehood.

Jesus said that when you pray you should go into the closet and shut the door and pray to God in secret, meaning when you pray to God, withdraw within your mind and shut your mouth and God who sees what is done in secret will reward you openly.

If you literally go into a closet or a church and start counting rosary beads or lighting candles praying to God while kneeling in front of a half naked and bloody statue of Jesus, you are an idolator, and God will hide his face from you, not listen to your prayer, and your mind will wither and die. Some people remain in the netherworld for decades before they wake up, some never will.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

Again, context. We see Christ praying is solitude, praying with his Apostles, praying in the synagogue or Temple, AND praying in public. What Christ condemned was praying in public to boost self-image. I can testify God does not hide his face from Catholics and never has.

 

[hobelim]

And I agree that the command against idolatry is not a condemnation of art in general but the condemnation of making an image of anything on earth or in heaven, and assuming a submissive posture before it as an expression of devotion love or worship of God..

The last part is an attempt of taking scripture and twisting it into something it is not in order to exhibit a "justified" hatred towards others. Scripture tells us to worship with everything that we are (this includes involving our five senses) and everything that is in us. Twisting that into a sneer that it is actual reverence/worship of an image is a falsehood.

I suggest that you examine whether the hatred you perceive is actually the result of being convicted by your own conscience and an inkling of the perception of what it is to be under the condemnation of God. I have no hatred towards you or anyone else for that matter and I fail to understand how you would stoop so low as to accuse me of hatred when I have merely been attempting to reason with you about the subjects of the law, the nature of idolatry, and the resurrection of the dead.

So what should a good Catholic do? Go to confession and then violate the first command and pray to God in front of a statue of a tortured and dying Jesus and, to add insult to injury, worship and eat a lifeless material object made by human hands for spiritual life, to show God just how sorry you are for your sins?

seriously. WTF.

 

[guno]

 

[Meriweather]

I suggest that you examine whether the hatred you perceive is actually the result of being convicted by your own conscience and an inkling of the perception of what it is to be under the condemnation of God. I have no hatred towards you or anyone else for that matter and I fail to understand how you would stoop so low as to accuse me of hatred when I have merely been attempting to reason with you about the subjects of the law, the nature of idolatry, and the resurrection of the dead.

So what should a good Catholic do? Go to confession and then violate the first command and pray to God in front of a statue of a tortured and dying Jesus and, to add insult to injury, worship and eat a lifeless material object made by human hands for spiritual life, to show God just how sorry you are for your sins?

seriously. WTF.

Read what I said again. I did not say, and would not say or even suggest you hate the Catholic Church. However, it is clear that you have bought into the ignorance of what constitutes an idol and what does not--which was presented by those who in the past did hate Catholicism. The more we delve into the history of those who directed past hate towards the Catholic Church, the more we see the political power struggle that was taking place in those times.

Those who accuse Catholics of worshiping statues/idols are oddly quiet about the carvings and engravings on the Ark of the Covenant. They are oddly quiet about the direction to worship God in totality with body, mind, and soul--and to include God in all aspects of our life. When you heard the criticism of Catholics and statues, did you even think to ask about the Ark of the Covenant, the first housing we know of for the presence of God?

No commandment is being violated as Catholics do not worship idols. Catholics do not identify art as God. We do honor the lives and the presence of God in historical moments.