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This is what atheist believe? Atheist believe that nothing created everything

BreezeWood

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Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.

Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.
So, God created existence. I assume that God also created man as it'd be pretty hard that there be much of anything without existence.

Why does God not wish to take responsibility for man's flawed design?
It may be more technically accurate to say God is existence. But be that as it may be, He created our existence; the material world.

He doesn't. That's you blaming God for it. Thinking you would have done a better job. I guess in your world there would be no death, no illness, only good things. In fact, bad wouldn't even have meaning. Not sure you have thought that through but to each his own as they say.
Oh, I've thought about it and concede that the description of boring comes to mind.

But then, I'm not an omnipotent who should be able to design the thrill of a a roller coaster without subjecting small children to cancer, or a lifetime with two heads and one set of shoulders? Wow, does your God also pull the wings from flies?

Again, I point to the riddle... If God is unable to overcome evil and suffering why call him God?
I'm not sure how one designs the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat. Whatever will you do with all of those people who don't die in your world?
Let me help. We play a round of golf, I sink a hole in one and your ball lands in the water. You're disappointed but still alive and anxious for another day, another challenge.

As for all of those dead people, that's God's problem. He made the rules. He let them die.
I see it a little different. Your ball lands in the water and you curse why God didn't make it so you would never have to suffer adversity. My ball lands in the water and I ask myself what it was I was supposed to learn. Down the road you hit a hole in one and feel nothing because you expect God to have made a world where all of your shots go in the hole. I make a hole in one and am elated because I know that not all shots go in the hole and it's because not all shots go in the hole that I feel so much joy over the ones that do.
There's a very large difference between simple adversity and the real ugly that exist in the world.

What possible purpose is there to a child born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age? Would you dismiss that with, "It's okay, there will be other children"? And what was the gain to the dead infant? What lesson and wisdom do you assign to the extermination of six million Jews and how do you justify it to the six million? When religious people lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve?

You treat the victims of all the suffering as if they are unthinking, unfeeling golf balls.

There is no way around the wisdom reflected by the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence, he created man, he created all, and hence, is responsible for the product. It's that fucking simple.
No, I wouldn't dismiss it. Would you dismiss the overwhelmingly number of children who are born perfectly healthy?

Do you think the parents of children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age love them less? Or do they love them more because of it? Do you think that children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age don't have a positive affect upon the world? I think they do. I think the same would apply to the stillborn infant too.

What lesson and wisdom do I assign to the extermination of six million Jews? That's it's a bad idea to dehumanize human life and that when one does predictable consequences will ensue. How do I justify it to the six million? I don't. Life is not a value transaction. But some may argue that the establishment of Israel would not have occurred without it? How many lives did that end up saving in your cold hard value assessment? The question is will you only see the bad that comes from things or will you take a more balanced view.

When religious people (who were Democrats) lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve? That human life is precious and that we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures and that humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. When religious people (who were Republicans) fought to end that injustice did you give them credit or learn anything from their efforts?

There is a away around the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence. Existence is good. Good is extant. Evil is not extant. It only exists as the absence of good.
The means by which you dismiss my questions suggest that Hitler really wasn't a bad fellow. God sent him to teach us about humanity, and Adolph obliged. Each of your attempts to excuse evil and suffering ignores victims as if they were mere currency in the purchase of God's Not-so-intelligent Design. Not a single thing you said of the agonized-twisted infant addressed the plight and suffering of that little PERSON. The child was disposable in a warped proof of God's Greater Good.

Apparently, God deems that the end justifies the means so long as good exceeds evil.

Your way around the Paradox is just another bogus effort to ignore God's inability to provide good without the use/presence of evil. As the riddle ask, "whence comes evil".

I'm not sure why you brought political parties into the conversation, but would remind you that somewhere in the middle or the prior century a contingent of Dems changed sides.
Hey, as I use to say in a different time and place... shit happens (unless you're a rabid reactionary).
I didn't dismiss your questions. I answered your questions. What question do you think I dismissed?

What does a bad fellow mean exactly? I don't believe anyone is all bad or all good. Do you? Do you think you are a good fellow? Do you do all good at all times? So to correct your assumption, I believe Hitler did some very bad things. It would be super nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth and then trying to bash me for the words you put there. That's not nice.

Who said God sent Hitler to teach us about humanity? You keep making false assumptions. You could just ask me and you could avoid having to hear my corrections. I believe it must be you who thinks God is turning knobs and controlling events on earth because it sure isn't me who believes that. God created existence. He imparted His attributes upon man. Man must choose to do good or bad. There is a self compensating feature of existence. Error eventually fails and truth is eventually discovered. Many times that discovery is a result of something bad that happened.

I never excused evil. Can you show me where I excused evil? Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good. That's not me excusing men who choose to do evil. That's stating reality. It is also reality that good comes from evil. That's not excusing evil either.

I didn't ignore the victims or the suffering of victims. In no way is my saying that good comes from bad a justification for evil or suffering. That's just stating reality. A reality you would most likely have no problem accepting if we weren't discussing God as the creator of existence. It's your bias that is clouding your judgement and results in your inability to take balanced positions an anything related to God.

It is a logical fallacy to say that unless everything is perfect there can be no creator.
You defined what is perfect. I don't recall even using the word.

There is no logical fallacy in insisting that one who tolerates evil and suffering is not God in the sense of a compassionate omnipotent. I am prepared that you will dodge the compassion issue by suggesting something on the order of God's Plan, that he works in mysterious ways. "In God We Trust", right?

I won't answer your lengthy post as I have another life. No offense, but this is not the medium for dissertations.

However, I allow for your right to faith. You need to do the same for me. The reality is that you have no proof, and I have no disproof (the latter a logical fallacy).
That's exactly what you are insinuating with your logical fallacy that God cannot exist unless this world meets your standard of perfection. It's a ridiculous assertion.

Of course I have proof. Existence is proof. It's not an accident that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. What evidence were you expecting to find? You want God to do some magic for you or something?
There is no fallacy in demanding a compassionate purpose in your God's tolerance for evil and suffering except to suggest that it is necessary in achieving his plan... in which case he is neither omnipotent nor a god at all. Is there a possibility that there is some unseen aspect of God which we are unable to grasp? I suppose there could be, but it can only be accepted as exactly that, a possibility - something taken on faith.

You set the standard for your God, not me. You deemed him both omnipotent and compassionate. It is your demand for this perfection, not mine. I'm simply holding your feet to the fire. I fully accept that the world is not perfect, but my point is not about the world's imperfection but about the imperfection of your God.

No intended offense, but you would do well to simply practice your faith and not try so hard to convince others that faith is proof. It is not.
How do you know what God's plan is to be able to judge his plan?
I don't and neither do you... at least not without indulging hearsay and faith.
But I'm not the one judging God as lacking. You are.

Believing there can be no creator because creation doesn't match your perception of what it should be is illogical.
How can I be judging what I do not see or know? That's your game. I'm judging what Christians define of God and comparing it to what populates the world.
And yet your basis for not believing in God is that you have found God lacking because the material world is not to your liking or to your perception of what you think God should have created.
You continue to dodge the question by drawing half-back conclusions about me.

Is your God, omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate?
I have not dodged anything. It is you who has dismissed my explanations such that I am having to repeat them over and over again as I just did in my last post which by the way addresses your logical fallacy of a good God allowing evil to exist.
If you are not dodging, why don't you simply answer yes or no to the question... instead of playing word games and pretending that I created the Christian notion of God.
Because in your silly worldview you think that means the world shouldn't be the way it is but as I explained you don't have complete information. God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.
Bravo:clap: for stepping part way into the light.

Let's be clear, I don't begrudge you or anyone their religious belief. I do take exception to those who preach to me with the false logic that faith is fact. It is not. Above, you suggest I'm wrong because I don't have complete information (God's Plan). That may be true, but it's not fact.. I'd also note that you don't know that plan either but are declining to "God Works in Mysterious Ways." You are taking it on faith and truly, I hope it gives you comfort, but it is not fact.

As to what I underscored, your use of the word "if" caste a shadow,. You are starting your syllogism with a premise that is not an accepted truth but a mere possibility.

One last thing, I would ask you to quit defining my worldview - then to label it as silly. Contrary to your remark, I expect the world to be awful (at times) because I do not take faith in the existence of a benevolent and all-powerful god.
I am happy that I pleased you. The faith I have - which I have never "preached" - is that good comes from bad. That is a fact. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It's how we progress. That you can't see it is not my problem.

And as for your "gotcha" moment. You should have read the next sentence.

For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.

You want me to quit defining your worldview as you try to define my worldview? No thanks. I think I will keep pointing out the flaws in your worldview as you try to point out the flaws in mine. It only seems fair. Which BTW is more proof that God is good. You can't shake the need for fairness or stop rationalizing that you are fair when you aren't. It's hardwired into you. And it's also the original sin.

I have no qualms with your expectation that the world can be an awful place. Just that you use it as an excuse to not believe in God. That's illogical. So we are right back where we started from.
I saw what you wrote in big blue letters before I answered. So what? And what gotcha moment?

I don't need an excuse not to believe in your god, your faith.

Mind your manners
Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.

Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.
So, God created existence. I assume that God also created man as it'd be pretty hard that there be much of anything without existence.

Why does God not wish to take responsibility for man's flawed design?
It may be more technically accurate to say God is existence. But be that as it may be, He created our existence; the material world.

He doesn't. That's you blaming God for it. Thinking you would have done a better job. I guess in your world there would be no death, no illness, only good things. In fact, bad wouldn't even have meaning. Not sure you have thought that through but to each his own as they say.
Oh, I've thought about it and concede that the description of boring comes to mind.

But then, I'm not an omnipotent who should be able to design the thrill of a a roller coaster without subjecting small children to cancer, or a lifetime with two heads and one set of shoulders? Wow, does your God also pull the wings from flies?

Again, I point to the riddle... If God is unable to overcome evil and suffering why call him God?
I'm not sure how one designs the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat. Whatever will you do with all of those people who don't die in your world?
Let me help. We play a round of golf, I sink a hole in one and your ball lands in the water. You're disappointed but still alive and anxious for another day, another challenge.

As for all of those dead people, that's God's problem. He made the rules. He let them die.
I see it a little different. Your ball lands in the water and you curse why God didn't make it so you would never have to suffer adversity. My ball lands in the water and I ask myself what it was I was supposed to learn. Down the road you hit a hole in one and feel nothing because you expect God to have made a world where all of your shots go in the hole. I make a hole in one and am elated because I know that not all shots go in the hole and it's because not all shots go in the hole that I feel so much joy over the ones that do.
There's a very large difference between simple adversity and the real ugly that exist in the world.

What possible purpose is there to a child born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age? Would you dismiss that with, "It's okay, there will be other children"? And what was the gain to the dead infant? What lesson and wisdom do you assign to the extermination of six million Jews and how do you justify it to the six million? When religious people lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve?

You treat the victims of all the suffering as if they are unthinking, unfeeling golf balls.

There is no way around the wisdom reflected by the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence, he created man, he created all, and hence, is responsible for the product. It's that fucking simple.
No, I wouldn't dismiss it. Would you dismiss the overwhelmingly number of children who are born perfectly healthy?

Do you think the parents of children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age love them less? Or do they love them more because of it? Do you think that children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age don't have a positive affect upon the world? I think they do. I think the same would apply to the stillborn infant too.

What lesson and wisdom do I assign to the extermination of six million Jews? That's it's a bad idea to dehumanize human life and that when one does predictable consequences will ensue. How do I justify it to the six million? I don't. Life is not a value transaction. But some may argue that the establishment of Israel would not have occurred without it? How many lives did that end up saving in your cold hard value assessment? The question is will you only see the bad that comes from things or will you take a more balanced view.

When religious people (who were Democrats) lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve? That human life is precious and that we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures and that humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. When religious people (who were Republicans) fought to end that injustice did you give them credit or learn anything from their efforts?

There is a away around the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence. Existence is good. Good is extant. Evil is not extant. It only exists as the absence of good.
The means by which you dismiss my questions suggest that Hitler really wasn't a bad fellow. God sent him to teach us about humanity, and Adolph obliged. Each of your attempts to excuse evil and suffering ignores victims as if they were mere currency in the purchase of God's Not-so-intelligent Design. Not a single thing you said of the agonized-twisted infant addressed the plight and suffering of that little PERSON. The child was disposable in a warped proof of God's Greater Good.

Apparently, God deems that the end justifies the means so long as good exceeds evil.

Your way around the Paradox is just another bogus effort to ignore God's inability to provide good without the use/presence of evil. As the riddle ask, "whence comes evil".

I'm not sure why you brought political parties into the conversation, but would remind you that somewhere in the middle or the prior century a contingent of Dems changed sides.
Hey, as I use to say in a different time and place... shit happens (unless you're a rabid reactionary).
I didn't dismiss your questions. I answered your questions. What question do you think I dismissed?

What does a bad fellow mean exactly? I don't believe anyone is all bad or all good. Do you? Do you think you are a good fellow? Do you do all good at all times? So to correct your assumption, I believe Hitler did some very bad things. It would be super nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth and then trying to bash me for the words you put there. That's not nice.

Who said God sent Hitler to teach us about humanity? You keep making false assumptions. You could just ask me and you could avoid having to hear my corrections. I believe it must be you who thinks God is turning knobs and controlling events on earth because it sure isn't me who believes that. God created existence. He imparted His attributes upon man. Man must choose to do good or bad. There is a self compensating feature of existence. Error eventually fails and truth is eventually discovered. Many times that discovery is a result of something bad that happened.

I never excused evil. Can you show me where I excused evil? Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good. That's not me excusing men who choose to do evil. That's stating reality. It is also reality that good comes from evil. That's not excusing evil either.

I didn't ignore the victims or the suffering of victims. In no way is my saying that good comes from bad a justification for evil or suffering. That's just stating reality. A reality you would most likely have no problem accepting if we weren't discussing God as the creator of existence. It's your bias that is clouding your judgement and results in your inability to take balanced positions an anything related to God.

It is a logical fallacy to say that unless everything is perfect there can be no creator.
You defined what is perfect. I don't recall even using the word.

There is no logical fallacy in insisting that one who tolerates evil and suffering is not God in the sense of a compassionate omnipotent. I am prepared that you will dodge the compassion issue by suggesting something on the order of God's Plan, that he works in mysterious ways. "In God We Trust", right?

I won't answer your lengthy post as I have another life. No offense, but this is not the medium for dissertations.

However, I allow for your right to faith. You need to do the same for me. The reality is that you have no proof, and I have no disproof (the latter a logical fallacy).
That's exactly what you are insinuating with your logical fallacy that God cannot exist unless this world meets your standard of perfection. It's a ridiculous assertion.

Of course I have proof. Existence is proof. It's not an accident that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. What evidence were you expecting to find? You want God to do some magic for you or something?
There is no fallacy in demanding a compassionate purpose in your God's tolerance for evil and suffering except to suggest that it is necessary in achieving his plan... in which case he is neither omnipotent nor a god at all. Is there a possibility that there is some unseen aspect of God which we are unable to grasp? I suppose there could be, but it can only be accepted as exactly that, a possibility - something taken on faith.

You set the standard for your God, not me. You deemed him both omnipotent and compassionate. It is your demand for this perfection, not mine. I'm simply holding your feet to the fire. I fully accept that the world is not perfect, but my point is not about the world's imperfection but about the imperfection of your God.

No intended offense, but you would do well to simply practice your faith and not try so hard to convince others that faith is proof. It is not.
How do you know what God's plan is to be able to judge his plan?
I don't and neither do you... at least not without indulging hearsay and faith.
But I'm not the one judging God as lacking. You are.

Believing there can be no creator because creation doesn't match your perception of what it should be is illogical.
How can I be judging what I do not see or know? That's your game. I'm judging what Christians define of God and comparing it to what populates the world.
And yet your basis for not believing in God is that you have found God lacking because the material world is not to your liking or to your perception of what you think God should have created.
You continue to dodge the question by drawing half-back conclusions about me.

Is your God, omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate?
I have not dodged anything. It is you who has dismissed my explanations such that I am having to repeat them over and over again as I just did in my last post which by the way addresses your logical fallacy of a good God allowing evil to exist.
If you are not dodging, why don't you simply answer yes or no to the question... instead of playing word games and pretending that I created the Christian notion of God.
Because in your silly worldview you think that means the world shouldn't be the way it is but as I explained you don't have complete information. God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.
Bravo:clap: for stepping part way into the light.

Let's be clear, I don't begrudge you or anyone their religious belief. I do take exception to those who preach to me with the false logic that faith is fact. It is not. Above, you suggest I'm wrong because I don't have complete information (God's Plan). That may be true, but it's not fact.. I'd also note that you don't know that plan either but are declining to "God Works in Mysterious Ways." You are taking it on faith and truly, I hope it gives you comfort, but it is not fact.

As to what I underscored, your use of the word "if" caste a shadow,. You are starting your syllogism with a premise that is not an accepted truth but a mere possibility.

One last thing, I would ask you to quit defining my worldview - then to label it as silly. Contrary to your remark, I expect the world to be awful (at times) because I do not take faith in the existence of a benevolent and all-powerful god.
And yet you feel that you have the right to preach that absolutely nothing created absolutely everything.

Get treated
Seriously, I'm beginning to think you are daft?

Please link me to where I said what you suggested above or just stand there with pants around your ankles and your ass exposed.

Quite to the contrary, I made reference to The First Law of Thermodynamics, in evidencing the POSSIBILITY that the universe is eternal.

I suspect that you'll turn my disbelief in your God as evidence of what I believe rather than evidence of what I do not believe. It fits with your bastardized logic.
The first law of thermodynamics does not explain where any of the fluctuating matter or energy came from, so again according to you nothing created everything. Except now you are babbling that everything always was.

You believe in nothing and that is why you are stuck where you are.
You appear to be confessing that God does not always practice compassion, and that there are some things he cannot accomplish without allowing the presence of pain.
No. I am trying to explain to you that you don't have complete information and God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. I know I don't have complete information, and neither do you. Rather, you have faith that you wish to pedal as fact. No sale.
Thanks, but cutting and pasting a sermon of double-talk will not give me to surrender my senses. The message that God is compassionate but he's not quite all-powerful and unable to deliver his imperfect creations to a perfect place without first torturing newborns... along with a few other outburst of hellfire and damnation.
There's no double talk on my part, amigo. You think the bad vastly outweighs the good. It doesn't. The good vastly outweighs the bad. You can't understand why suffering has to occur. It occurs because suffering is a natural part of existence in the material world just as death is a natural part of existence in the material world. If you are going to not believe in God because of suffering or because you don't have perfect hair, you should have first complained about having to die. You think it is logical that God should have created utopia or there can be no God. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation because you don't know why God created existence in the first place. He does. You think God can't be omnipotent unless he created utopia. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation. He does. God's power is not put forward to get certain things done, but to get them done in a certain way, and with certain results in the lives of those who do them. You think God can't be good or compassionate because there is suffering and death. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation. He does. With infinite wisdom and goodness God created a world where good arises from bad such that we get to experience the full spectrum of existence and that is a very good thing for us to experience.
So existence is natural rather than God's creation... more double talk. Are you saying Omnipotent God can't alter what is natural? I enjoyed you wanting to make good of God's work because there's more good than bad. I can entertain that POSSIBILITY on a world scale or at least from vantage of one who lives in a privilidged country. But PRAY TELL, where does that scale tip for an infant who lives a twisted and painful life only to die at age five?
DOUBLE-TALK: The world that God gifted to us would be boring without pain and evil (necessary tools to deliver us to God's Perfect Place). In other words, once you pass all the test and suffer, be prepared for boredom.
The only double talk is coming from you as you are the one who wants a material world without suffering or challenges. You want boring now. I have no idea what lies ahead but since it won't be the material world I suspect it will be a different level of amazing. Because unlike you I find this level amazing. Why could God have not started with the "different level of amazing"? I want a world with as little suffering as possible but I do not go though life with fairytale expectations. Quit pretending to be me... you suck at it.

Honestly, what a crock!
The crock is believing there can be no creator because you get to experience the full spectrum of existence. Rather than appreciate the gift that was given to you, you curse your own existence. Now that's a crock. I don't curse my existence. Can you cite an example of my doing so or will you point to my challenging your myths?
Your constant dishonest misrepresentation of my positions demonstrate an inability to honestly argue your convictions.

Continually, you toss strawmen (fallacy) for me to defend. It's becoming tiresome, and hence, I will simply footnote your straw and refuse to repeat myself.

God is faith, period. Quit preaching.
No. God is reality. Literally. As in existence. God IS. As in I AM which is a statement of existence. The first cause. The source of all reality. The material world is made up of mind stuff. I get that these things are what you believe but you should be careful how universally you declare what is simply your faith. You are beginning to sound like some dazed old man on the street corner mumbling about God.

Again... I think I will keep pointing out the flaws in your worldview as you try to point out the flaws in mine. It only seems fair.

If you keep arguing how bad everything is, I'll keep using that as a baseline. Because the moment you tell me how great existence is, that's the moment when your argument falls apart. So which is it? Is existence great or is it a burden? I believe most people believe existence is great but you'd never know it from your posts. I've clearly, and numerously, stated that the world is a mixed bag. I just said it again. It is you who sees everything through a single lens. God is good, God is great... ignore the dead babies, wars, pestilence and famine because these are all part of God's Plan. God IS because Ding said so. And just so there is no confusion, God might be but likely not in the mode as portrayed by Ding.
(The red comments above are Blue Collar's.)

I'm sorry but your faith proves nothing but your faith.
Yet dingy has you wrapped around his finger. He owns you
.
The first law of thermodynamics does not explain where any of the fluctuating matter or energy came from, so again according to you nothing created everything.
.
have you proven matter and energy have not always existed, your formula -

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.
Dude the fact is that the blithering idiot physicist that proposed your dumb theory can not even prove mathematically that the universe even exist, and as a result of that they invented dark matter to make galaxies moving at 5 times light speed possible which also violates your science.

God wins
.
have you proven matter and energy have not always existed, your formula -

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.

Dude the fact is that the blithering idiot physicist that proposed your dumb theory can not even prove mathematically that the universe even exist, and as a result of that they invented dark matter to make galaxies moving at 5 times light speed possible which also violates your science.

.
you did not answer the question ... has there ever been a time matter or energy have not existed - your proof.
Do you have proof that matter and energy have always existed? You are too dumb to know that you infer the big bang which clearly points to a previous period.

Play on stupid
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Do you have proof that matter and energy have always existed? You are too dumb to know that you infer the big bang which clearly points to a previous period.

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.
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I provided an explanation for their eternal existence, in one form or another whether in cataclysm or not - something you have yet to refute.
And how do you know about the beginning of time, other than your schizoid brain that makes up whatever it needs I mean
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And how do you know about the beginning of time, other than your schizoid brain that makes up whatever it needs I mean
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in one form or another matter and energy have always existed, cyclical bb can be measures of time within eternity is all that is being calibrated.
Name something that you know of, that did not come from somewhere else. If you are dumb enough you will believe that there is an answer. And you are pretty dumb.
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in one form or another matter and energy have always existed, cyclical bb can be measures of time within eternity is all that is being calibrated.

Name something that you know of, that did not come from somewhere else. If you are dumb enough you will believe that there is an answer. And you are pretty dumb.
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at least you now know it came from somewhere ...
 

BreezeWood

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I expressed disbelief of a compassionate omnipotent who tolerates the suffering and death of babies. I am not omnipotent and tolerate many things that I cannot change. You wish to deflect from these realities with a game that takes score of my virtues and failures.
Yes, ding's apparent response to the paradox,

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able, then He is not omnipotent. If He is able, but not willing, then He is malevolent. If He is both willing and able, whence comes evil?"

is now claiming to see no evil, hear no evil, .. Hey, yeah, it's all good, man, pass that joint back over here, will ya, kumbaya! kumbaya!.. Dead babies? What dead babies? Whence comes dead babies!?
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No dead babies under here.. haha!..
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Yes, ding's apparent response to the paradox,

is now claiming to see no evil, hear no evil, ..
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bing claims to be born a sinner, a sin he can not resolve and yet then implies evil does not exist - - what then does the christian believe is sin ...

the distinction is obvious, as well that being born is where the distinction begins. for the individual and humanity as a whole.
 
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D

Dusty

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Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.

Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.
So, God created existence. I assume that God also created man as it'd be pretty hard that there be much of anything without existence.

Why does God not wish to take responsibility for man's flawed design?
It may be more technically accurate to say God is existence. But be that as it may be, He created our existence; the material world.

He doesn't. That's you blaming God for it. Thinking you would have done a better job. I guess in your world there would be no death, no illness, only good things. In fact, bad wouldn't even have meaning. Not sure you have thought that through but to each his own as they say.
Oh, I've thought about it and concede that the description of boring comes to mind.

But then, I'm not an omnipotent who should be able to design the thrill of a a roller coaster without subjecting small children to cancer, or a lifetime with two heads and one set of shoulders? Wow, does your God also pull the wings from flies?

Again, I point to the riddle... If God is unable to overcome evil and suffering why call him God?
I'm not sure how one designs the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat. Whatever will you do with all of those people who don't die in your world?
Let me help. We play a round of golf, I sink a hole in one and your ball lands in the water. You're disappointed but still alive and anxious for another day, another challenge.

As for all of those dead people, that's God's problem. He made the rules. He let them die.
I see it a little different. Your ball lands in the water and you curse why God didn't make it so you would never have to suffer adversity. My ball lands in the water and I ask myself what it was I was supposed to learn. Down the road you hit a hole in one and feel nothing because you expect God to have made a world where all of your shots go in the hole. I make a hole in one and am elated because I know that not all shots go in the hole and it's because not all shots go in the hole that I feel so much joy over the ones that do.
There's a very large difference between simple adversity and the real ugly that exist in the world.

What possible purpose is there to a child born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age? Would you dismiss that with, "It's okay, there will be other children"? And what was the gain to the dead infant? What lesson and wisdom do you assign to the extermination of six million Jews and how do you justify it to the six million? When religious people lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve?

You treat the victims of all the suffering as if they are unthinking, unfeeling golf balls.

There is no way around the wisdom reflected by the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence, he created man, he created all, and hence, is responsible for the product. It's that fucking simple.
No, I wouldn't dismiss it. Would you dismiss the overwhelmingly number of children who are born perfectly healthy?

Do you think the parents of children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age love them less? Or do they love them more because of it? Do you think that children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age don't have a positive affect upon the world? I think they do. I think the same would apply to the stillborn infant too.

What lesson and wisdom do I assign to the extermination of six million Jews? That's it's a bad idea to dehumanize human life and that when one does predictable consequences will ensue. How do I justify it to the six million? I don't. Life is not a value transaction. But some may argue that the establishment of Israel would not have occurred without it? How many lives did that end up saving in your cold hard value assessment? The question is will you only see the bad that comes from things or will you take a more balanced view.

When religious people (who were Democrats) lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve? That human life is precious and that we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures and that humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. When religious people (who were Republicans) fought to end that injustice did you give them credit or learn anything from their efforts?

There is a away around the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence. Existence is good. Good is extant. Evil is not extant. It only exists as the absence of good.
The means by which you dismiss my questions suggest that Hitler really wasn't a bad fellow. God sent him to teach us about humanity, and Adolph obliged. Each of your attempts to excuse evil and suffering ignores victims as if they were mere currency in the purchase of God's Not-so-intelligent Design. Not a single thing you said of the agonized-twisted infant addressed the plight and suffering of that little PERSON. The child was disposable in a warped proof of God's Greater Good.

Apparently, God deems that the end justifies the means so long as good exceeds evil.

Your way around the Paradox is just another bogus effort to ignore God's inability to provide good without the use/presence of evil. As the riddle ask, "whence comes evil".

I'm not sure why you brought political parties into the conversation, but would remind you that somewhere in the middle or the prior century a contingent of Dems changed sides.
Hey, as I use to say in a different time and place... shit happens (unless you're a rabid reactionary).
I didn't dismiss your questions. I answered your questions. What question do you think I dismissed?

What does a bad fellow mean exactly? I don't believe anyone is all bad or all good. Do you? Do you think you are a good fellow? Do you do all good at all times? So to correct your assumption, I believe Hitler did some very bad things. It would be super nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth and then trying to bash me for the words you put there. That's not nice.

Who said God sent Hitler to teach us about humanity? You keep making false assumptions. You could just ask me and you could avoid having to hear my corrections. I believe it must be you who thinks God is turning knobs and controlling events on earth because it sure isn't me who believes that. God created existence. He imparted His attributes upon man. Man must choose to do good or bad. There is a self compensating feature of existence. Error eventually fails and truth is eventually discovered. Many times that discovery is a result of something bad that happened.

I never excused evil. Can you show me where I excused evil? Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good. That's not me excusing men who choose to do evil. That's stating reality. It is also reality that good comes from evil. That's not excusing evil either.

I didn't ignore the victims or the suffering of victims. In no way is my saying that good comes from bad a justification for evil or suffering. That's just stating reality. A reality you would most likely have no problem accepting if we weren't discussing God as the creator of existence. It's your bias that is clouding your judgement and results in your inability to take balanced positions an anything related to God.

It is a logical fallacy to say that unless everything is perfect there can be no creator.
You defined what is perfect. I don't recall even using the word.

There is no logical fallacy in insisting that one who tolerates evil and suffering is not God in the sense of a compassionate omnipotent. I am prepared that you will dodge the compassion issue by suggesting something on the order of God's Plan, that he works in mysterious ways. "In God We Trust", right?

I won't answer your lengthy post as I have another life. No offense, but this is not the medium for dissertations.

However, I allow for your right to faith. You need to do the same for me. The reality is that you have no proof, and I have no disproof (the latter a logical fallacy).
That's exactly what you are insinuating with your logical fallacy that God cannot exist unless this world meets your standard of perfection. It's a ridiculous assertion.

Of course I have proof. Existence is proof. It's not an accident that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. What evidence were you expecting to find? You want God to do some magic for you or something?
There is no fallacy in demanding a compassionate purpose in your God's tolerance for evil and suffering except to suggest that it is necessary in achieving his plan... in which case he is neither omnipotent nor a god at all. Is there a possibility that there is some unseen aspect of God which we are unable to grasp? I suppose there could be, but it can only be accepted as exactly that, a possibility - something taken on faith.

You set the standard for your God, not me. You deemed him both omnipotent and compassionate. It is your demand for this perfection, not mine. I'm simply holding your feet to the fire. I fully accept that the world is not perfect, but my point is not about the world's imperfection but about the imperfection of your God.

No intended offense, but you would do well to simply practice your faith and not try so hard to convince others that faith is proof. It is not.
How do you know what God's plan is to be able to judge his plan?
I don't and neither do you... at least not without indulging hearsay and faith.
But I'm not the one judging God as lacking. You are.

Believing there can be no creator because creation doesn't match your perception of what it should be is illogical.
How can I be judging what I do not see or know? That's your game. I'm judging what Christians define of God and comparing it to what populates the world.
And yet your basis for not believing in God is that you have found God lacking because the material world is not to your liking or to your perception of what you think God should have created.
You continue to dodge the question by drawing half-back conclusions about me.

Is your God, omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate?
I have not dodged anything. It is you who has dismissed my explanations such that I am having to repeat them over and over again as I just did in my last post which by the way addresses your logical fallacy of a good God allowing evil to exist.
If you are not dodging, why don't you simply answer yes or no to the question... instead of playing word games and pretending that I created the Christian notion of God.
Because in your silly worldview you think that means the world shouldn't be the way it is but as I explained you don't have complete information. God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.
Bravo:clap: for stepping part way into the light.

Let's be clear, I don't begrudge you or anyone their religious belief. I do take exception to those who preach to me with the false logic that faith is fact. It is not. Above, you suggest I'm wrong because I don't have complete information (God's Plan). That may be true, but it's not fact.. I'd also note that you don't know that plan either but are declining to "God Works in Mysterious Ways." You are taking it on faith and truly, I hope it gives you comfort, but it is not fact.

As to what I underscored, your use of the word "if" caste a shadow,. You are starting your syllogism with a premise that is not an accepted truth but a mere possibility.

One last thing, I would ask you to quit defining my worldview - then to label it as silly. Contrary to your remark, I expect the world to be awful (at times) because I do not take faith in the existence of a benevolent and all-powerful god.
I am happy that I pleased you. The faith I have - which I have never "preached" - is that good comes from bad. That is a fact. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It's how we progress. That you can't see it is not my problem.

And as for your "gotcha" moment. You should have read the next sentence.

For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.

You want me to quit defining your worldview as you try to define my worldview? No thanks. I think I will keep pointing out the flaws in your worldview as you try to point out the flaws in mine. It only seems fair. Which BTW is more proof that God is good. You can't shake the need for fairness or stop rationalizing that you are fair when you aren't. It's hardwired into you. And it's also the original sin.

I have no qualms with your expectation that the world can be an awful place. Just that you use it as an excuse to not believe in God. That's illogical. So we are right back where we started from.
I saw what you wrote in big blue letters before I answered. So what? And what gotcha moment?

I don't need an excuse not to believe in your god, your faith.

Mind your manners
Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.

Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.
So, God created existence. I assume that God also created man as it'd be pretty hard that there be much of anything without existence.

Why does God not wish to take responsibility for man's flawed design?
It may be more technically accurate to say God is existence. But be that as it may be, He created our existence; the material world.

He doesn't. That's you blaming God for it. Thinking you would have done a better job. I guess in your world there would be no death, no illness, only good things. In fact, bad wouldn't even have meaning. Not sure you have thought that through but to each his own as they say.
Oh, I've thought about it and concede that the description of boring comes to mind.

But then, I'm not an omnipotent who should be able to design the thrill of a a roller coaster without subjecting small children to cancer, or a lifetime with two heads and one set of shoulders? Wow, does your God also pull the wings from flies?

Again, I point to the riddle... If God is unable to overcome evil and suffering why call him God?
I'm not sure how one designs the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat. Whatever will you do with all of those people who don't die in your world?
Let me help. We play a round of golf, I sink a hole in one and your ball lands in the water. You're disappointed but still alive and anxious for another day, another challenge.

As for all of those dead people, that's God's problem. He made the rules. He let them die.
I see it a little different. Your ball lands in the water and you curse why God didn't make it so you would never have to suffer adversity. My ball lands in the water and I ask myself what it was I was supposed to learn. Down the road you hit a hole in one and feel nothing because you expect God to have made a world where all of your shots go in the hole. I make a hole in one and am elated because I know that not all shots go in the hole and it's because not all shots go in the hole that I feel so much joy over the ones that do.
There's a very large difference between simple adversity and the real ugly that exist in the world.

What possible purpose is there to a child born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age? Would you dismiss that with, "It's okay, there will be other children"? And what was the gain to the dead infant? What lesson and wisdom do you assign to the extermination of six million Jews and how do you justify it to the six million? When religious people lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve?

You treat the victims of all the suffering as if they are unthinking, unfeeling golf balls.

There is no way around the wisdom reflected by the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence, he created man, he created all, and hence, is responsible for the product. It's that fucking simple.
No, I wouldn't dismiss it. Would you dismiss the overwhelmingly number of children who are born perfectly healthy?

Do you think the parents of children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age love them less? Or do they love them more because of it? Do you think that children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age don't have a positive affect upon the world? I think they do. I think the same would apply to the stillborn infant too.

What lesson and wisdom do I assign to the extermination of six million Jews? That's it's a bad idea to dehumanize human life and that when one does predictable consequences will ensue. How do I justify it to the six million? I don't. Life is not a value transaction. But some may argue that the establishment of Israel would not have occurred without it? How many lives did that end up saving in your cold hard value assessment? The question is will you only see the bad that comes from things or will you take a more balanced view.

When religious people (who were Democrats) lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve? That human life is precious and that we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures and that humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. When religious people (who were Republicans) fought to end that injustice did you give them credit or learn anything from their efforts?

There is a away around the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence. Existence is good. Good is extant. Evil is not extant. It only exists as the absence of good.
The means by which you dismiss my questions suggest that Hitler really wasn't a bad fellow. God sent him to teach us about humanity, and Adolph obliged. Each of your attempts to excuse evil and suffering ignores victims as if they were mere currency in the purchase of God's Not-so-intelligent Design. Not a single thing you said of the agonized-twisted infant addressed the plight and suffering of that little PERSON. The child was disposable in a warped proof of God's Greater Good.

Apparently, God deems that the end justifies the means so long as good exceeds evil.

Your way around the Paradox is just another bogus effort to ignore God's inability to provide good without the use/presence of evil. As the riddle ask, "whence comes evil".

I'm not sure why you brought political parties into the conversation, but would remind you that somewhere in the middle or the prior century a contingent of Dems changed sides.
Hey, as I use to say in a different time and place... shit happens (unless you're a rabid reactionary).
I didn't dismiss your questions. I answered your questions. What question do you think I dismissed?

What does a bad fellow mean exactly? I don't believe anyone is all bad or all good. Do you? Do you think you are a good fellow? Do you do all good at all times? So to correct your assumption, I believe Hitler did some very bad things. It would be super nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth and then trying to bash me for the words you put there. That's not nice.

Who said God sent Hitler to teach us about humanity? You keep making false assumptions. You could just ask me and you could avoid having to hear my corrections. I believe it must be you who thinks God is turning knobs and controlling events on earth because it sure isn't me who believes that. God created existence. He imparted His attributes upon man. Man must choose to do good or bad. There is a self compensating feature of existence. Error eventually fails and truth is eventually discovered. Many times that discovery is a result of something bad that happened.

I never excused evil. Can you show me where I excused evil? Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good. That's not me excusing men who choose to do evil. That's stating reality. It is also reality that good comes from evil. That's not excusing evil either.

I didn't ignore the victims or the suffering of victims. In no way is my saying that good comes from bad a justification for evil or suffering. That's just stating reality. A reality you would most likely have no problem accepting if we weren't discussing God as the creator of existence. It's your bias that is clouding your judgement and results in your inability to take balanced positions an anything related to God.

It is a logical fallacy to say that unless everything is perfect there can be no creator.
You defined what is perfect. I don't recall even using the word.

There is no logical fallacy in insisting that one who tolerates evil and suffering is not God in the sense of a compassionate omnipotent. I am prepared that you will dodge the compassion issue by suggesting something on the order of God's Plan, that he works in mysterious ways. "In God We Trust", right?

I won't answer your lengthy post as I have another life. No offense, but this is not the medium for dissertations.

However, I allow for your right to faith. You need to do the same for me. The reality is that you have no proof, and I have no disproof (the latter a logical fallacy).
That's exactly what you are insinuating with your logical fallacy that God cannot exist unless this world meets your standard of perfection. It's a ridiculous assertion.

Of course I have proof. Existence is proof. It's not an accident that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. What evidence were you expecting to find? You want God to do some magic for you or something?
There is no fallacy in demanding a compassionate purpose in your God's tolerance for evil and suffering except to suggest that it is necessary in achieving his plan... in which case he is neither omnipotent nor a god at all. Is there a possibility that there is some unseen aspect of God which we are unable to grasp? I suppose there could be, but it can only be accepted as exactly that, a possibility - something taken on faith.

You set the standard for your God, not me. You deemed him both omnipotent and compassionate. It is your demand for this perfection, not mine. I'm simply holding your feet to the fire. I fully accept that the world is not perfect, but my point is not about the world's imperfection but about the imperfection of your God.

No intended offense, but you would do well to simply practice your faith and not try so hard to convince others that faith is proof. It is not.
How do you know what God's plan is to be able to judge his plan?
I don't and neither do you... at least not without indulging hearsay and faith.
But I'm not the one judging God as lacking. You are.

Believing there can be no creator because creation doesn't match your perception of what it should be is illogical.
How can I be judging what I do not see or know? That's your game. I'm judging what Christians define of God and comparing it to what populates the world.
And yet your basis for not believing in God is that you have found God lacking because the material world is not to your liking or to your perception of what you think God should have created.
You continue to dodge the question by drawing half-back conclusions about me.

Is your God, omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate?
I have not dodged anything. It is you who has dismissed my explanations such that I am having to repeat them over and over again as I just did in my last post which by the way addresses your logical fallacy of a good God allowing evil to exist.
If you are not dodging, why don't you simply answer yes or no to the question... instead of playing word games and pretending that I created the Christian notion of God.
Because in your silly worldview you think that means the world shouldn't be the way it is but as I explained you don't have complete information. God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. So YES, God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate.
Bravo:clap: for stepping part way into the light.

Let's be clear, I don't begrudge you or anyone their religious belief. I do take exception to those who preach to me with the false logic that faith is fact. It is not. Above, you suggest I'm wrong because I don't have complete information (God's Plan). That may be true, but it's not fact.. I'd also note that you don't know that plan either but are declining to "God Works in Mysterious Ways." You are taking it on faith and truly, I hope it gives you comfort, but it is not fact.

As to what I underscored, your use of the word "if" caste a shadow,. You are starting your syllogism with a premise that is not an accepted truth but a mere possibility.

One last thing, I would ask you to quit defining my worldview - then to label it as silly. Contrary to your remark, I expect the world to be awful (at times) because I do not take faith in the existence of a benevolent and all-powerful god.
And yet you feel that you have the right to preach that absolutely nothing created absolutely everything.

Get treated
Seriously, I'm beginning to think you are daft?

Please link me to where I said what you suggested above or just stand there with pants around your ankles and your ass exposed.

Quite to the contrary, I made reference to The First Law of Thermodynamics, in evidencing the POSSIBILITY that the universe is eternal.

I suspect that you'll turn my disbelief in your God as evidence of what I believe rather than evidence of what I do not believe. It fits with your bastardized logic.
The first law of thermodynamics does not explain where any of the fluctuating matter or energy came from, so again according to you nothing created everything. Except now you are babbling that everything always was.

You believe in nothing and that is why you are stuck where you are.
You appear to be confessing that God does not always practice compassion, and that there are some things he cannot accomplish without allowing the presence of pain.
No. I am trying to explain to you that you don't have complete information and God does. For if God is omnipotent, all-knowing and compassionate the world is the way it is for good reason even if you don't understand it. I know I don't have complete information, and neither do you. Rather, you have faith that you wish to pedal as fact. No sale.
Thanks, but cutting and pasting a sermon of double-talk will not give me to surrender my senses. The message that God is compassionate but he's not quite all-powerful and unable to deliver his imperfect creations to a perfect place without first torturing newborns... along with a few other outburst of hellfire and damnation.
There's no double talk on my part, amigo. You think the bad vastly outweighs the good. It doesn't. The good vastly outweighs the bad. You can't understand why suffering has to occur. It occurs because suffering is a natural part of existence in the material world just as death is a natural part of existence in the material world. If you are going to not believe in God because of suffering or because you don't have perfect hair, you should have first complained about having to die. You think it is logical that God should have created utopia or there can be no God. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation because you don't know why God created existence in the first place. He does. You think God can't be omnipotent unless he created utopia. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation. He does. God's power is not put forward to get certain things done, but to get them done in a certain way, and with certain results in the lives of those who do them. You think God can't be good or compassionate because there is suffering and death. I say you don't have perfect knowledge to make that calculation. He does. With infinite wisdom and goodness God created a world where good arises from bad such that we get to experience the full spectrum of existence and that is a very good thing for us to experience.
So existence is natural rather than God's creation... more double talk. Are you saying Omnipotent God can't alter what is natural? I enjoyed you wanting to make good of God's work because there's more good than bad. I can entertain that POSSIBILITY on a world scale or at least from vantage of one who lives in a privilidged country. But PRAY TELL, where does that scale tip for an infant who lives a twisted and painful life only to die at age five?
DOUBLE-TALK: The world that God gifted to us would be boring without pain and evil (necessary tools to deliver us to God's Perfect Place). In other words, once you pass all the test and suffer, be prepared for boredom.
The only double talk is coming from you as you are the one who wants a material world without suffering or challenges. You want boring now. I have no idea what lies ahead but since it won't be the material world I suspect it will be a different level of amazing. Because unlike you I find this level amazing. Why could God have not started with the "different level of amazing"? I want a world with as little suffering as possible but I do not go though life with fairytale expectations. Quit pretending to be me... you suck at it.

Honestly, what a crock!
The crock is believing there can be no creator because you get to experience the full spectrum of existence. Rather than appreciate the gift that was given to you, you curse your own existence. Now that's a crock. I don't curse my existence. Can you cite an example of my doing so or will you point to my challenging your myths?
Your constant dishonest misrepresentation of my positions demonstrate an inability to honestly argue your convictions.

Continually, you toss strawmen (fallacy) for me to defend. It's becoming tiresome, and hence, I will simply footnote your straw and refuse to repeat myself.

God is faith, period. Quit preaching.
No. God is reality. Literally. As in existence. God IS. As in I AM which is a statement of existence. The first cause. The source of all reality. The material world is made up of mind stuff. I get that these things are what you believe but you should be careful how universally you declare what is simply your faith. You are beginning to sound like some dazed old man on the street corner mumbling about God.

Again... I think I will keep pointing out the flaws in your worldview as you try to point out the flaws in mine. It only seems fair.

If you keep arguing how bad everything is, I'll keep using that as a baseline. Because the moment you tell me how great existence is, that's the moment when your argument falls apart. So which is it? Is existence great or is it a burden? I believe most people believe existence is great but you'd never know it from your posts. I've clearly, and numerously, stated that the world is a mixed bag. I just said it again. It is you who sees everything through a single lens. God is good, God is great... ignore the dead babies, wars, pestilence and famine because these are all part of God's Plan. God IS because Ding said so. And just so there is no confusion, God might be but likely not in the mode as portrayed by Ding.
(The red comments above are Blue Collar's.)

I'm sorry but your faith proves nothing but your faith.
Yet dingy has you wrapped around his finger. He owns you
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The first law of thermodynamics does not explain where any of the fluctuating matter or energy came from, so again according to you nothing created everything.
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have you proven matter and energy have not always existed, your formula -

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.
Dude the fact is that the blithering idiot physicist that proposed your dumb theory can not even prove mathematically that the universe even exist, and as a result of that they invented dark matter to make galaxies moving at 5 times light speed possible which also violates your science.

God wins
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have you proven matter and energy have not always existed, your formula -

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.

Dude the fact is that the blithering idiot physicist that proposed your dumb theory can not even prove mathematically that the universe even exist, and as a result of that they invented dark matter to make galaxies moving at 5 times light speed possible which also violates your science.

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you did not answer the question ... has there ever been a time matter or energy have not existed - your proof.
Do you have proof that matter and energy have always existed? You are too dumb to know that you infer the big bang which clearly points to a previous period.

Play on stupid
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Do you have proof that matter and energy have always existed? You are too dumb to know that you infer the big bang which clearly points to a previous period.

* "fluctuating matter and energy" - bb is cyclical, your laws are after the successful event's occurrence - they are that success. using them for any other purpose is nefarious at best.
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I provided an explanation for their eternal existence, in one form or another whether in cataclysm or not - something you have yet to refute.
And how do you know about the beginning of time, other than your schizoid brain that makes up whatever it needs I mean
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And how do you know about the beginning of time, other than your schizoid brain that makes up whatever it needs I mean
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in one form or another matter and energy have always existed, cyclical bb can be measures of time within eternity is all that is being calibrated.
Name something that you know of, that did not come from somewhere else. If you are dumb enough you will believe that there is an answer. And you are pretty dumb.
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in one form or another matter and energy have always existed, cyclical bb can be measures of time within eternity is all that is being calibrated.

Name something that you know of, that did not come from somewhere else. If you are dumb enough you will believe that there is an answer. And you are pretty dumb.
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at least you now know it came from somewhere ...
So you have failed to demonstrate that everything comes from somewhere, which precludes the universe creating itself from nothing.

See I knew you would find the need for God
 

ding

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Why are you bringing in beliefs of other posters and responding to me as if I made that statement?
Because, as quoted, you're no better than the OP:
You criticize what you don't believe and understand to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe.
There you presume to speak for BLUE COLLAR, an atheist, alleging shit about his beliefs. He has none related, by definition. You're just being a dickish, straw man attack troll as usual. As he suggests, own your pure reliance upon faith. Be consistent and speak for yourself or just fuck off.
Really? I'm not seeing it. Discussing my beliefs is not an attack upon your beliefs.

Blue Collar was criticizing my belief. Specifically my belief that God is compassionate and omnipotent. Or did you miss his main point in that exchange? And he didn't discuss or examine HIS beliefs in that exchange. So there was no presumption on my part.
 

ding

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I expressed disbelief of a compassionate omnipotent who tolerates the suffering and death of babies. I am not omnipotent and tolerate many things that I cannot change. You wish to deflect from these realities with a game that takes score of my virtues and failures.
Yes, ding's apparent response to the paradox,

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able, then He is not omnipotent. If He is able, but not willing, then He is malevolent. If He is both willing and able, whence comes evil?"

is now claiming to see no evil, hear no evil, .. Hey, yeah, it's all good, man, pass that joint back over here, will ya, kumbaya! kumbaya!.. Dead babies? What dead babies? Whence comes dead babies!?
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No dead babies under here.. haha!..
Are we going 15 rounds on this again?
 

frigidweirdo

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You start from an unproven premise: God Exist. You then parade this faith as if it is a given. But there is no proof, and your illogical ideas on how a compassionate omnipotent can tolerate any amount of human suffering makes a mockery of your faith.
So your expectation for God to exist is zero suffering.

And you don't think that is illogical?

I'm wondering why you don't discuss death at all? Isn't dying suffering? Don't we suffer when loved ones die?
I don't have an expectation of what is illogical, your God. Hence, your charge of illogical falls on its face.
Hardly. I was just glad to hear to you unconditionally state that there can be no God unless there is no suffering at all.
If someone (possibly you) said this of me, that someone is a liar, likely out of need to misrepresent me.

If I said or suggested anything of the above nature, it would have been in the context of YOUR definition of God, not mine because I don't have one. I'm just tearing down your foolish attempts to make fact from faith.

But you keep digging, the pony that is God may be down there somewhere amongst all that bull you are shoveling.
That's your expectation of what you think my definition should be. That's not my definition. You called my definition a mockery of mGod uses it all for y faith. But who are you to tell me what my faith is. So it can only be your definition. Your criteria. Your expectation for God.
So, you no longer claim God is Omnipotent, All-knowing and Compassionate? That's great. We are making progress in your recovery.

If you are offended by my telling your what your faith is, I would remind you that you have many times suggested what mine is and I don't even have a faith. Go figure.
I do believe God is Omnipotent, All-knowing and Compassionate and whole bunch of other really good things. I disagree with what you say that must mean. I reject your stupid paradox because the error is within the paradox. Our faith teaches that God uses it all for good. So we have reconciled why suffering exists. You haven't and you think our faith should teach that instead of what it does teach.
The fourth word in your next to last sentence should be "rationalized".

What is the error in the paradox? Be specific. Here, I'll print a short version of it for you.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able, then He is not omnipotent. If He is able, but not willing, then He is malevolent. If He is both willing and able, whence comes evil?"

I haven't read all 47 pages of this thread so pardon my ignorance on your position… but you're an atheist, right? If so, how do you define evil, and what is your basis? In other words, how do you account for evil itself? According to your worldview, this is just a physical world of rocks and trees and dirt… You don't believe morality is objective and universal, in the same way that 2+2 = 4, right?
First, I find the label of atheist is too confining. Generally, I have questions not answers.

I see evil as perspective, a something contrary to the welfare of a given state. Though I must confess that on a human level there appears to be insane forces without objective beyond the destructive.

No, there is very obviously something more present than rocks and dirt. If I may borrow the title of a book I read a time back, Consciousness Comes to Mind. Do I pretend to know the answer to what is termed the hard question? No, I do not. Do you?

If by objective morality you mean the opposite of relativism, my best answer is no; 2+2 does not add up to rationalizing a vote for Donald Trump.

You're probably non-religious then.
 

Dr Grump

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A Creator God is a core belief of monotheism. Monotheism rejects the unscientific belief that gods control all aspects of the material world. That's called magic and that's the error that people like FortFun and Blue Collar make when discussing Christianity. The birth of monotheism - Abram - rejected the polytheistic beliefs that different gods control different things. If your takeaway from the Bible that that is what the Bible teaches then you are reading it wrong.
Yes, your mono rejects the competition (poly and otherwise). Unfortunately, that doesn't automatically make your God a fact. He, she or it remain a matter of faith. Why do you insist on convincing others that what you take on faith is fact. How dense is that?
The universe popping into existence being created from nothing and being hardwired to produce intelligence is evidence of God. So whereas I have evidence for my beliefs you have none.

The definition of faith is having complete trust in something or someone. I never put complete trust in something or someone without good reason. My good reason for believing in God are the physical, biological and moral laws of nature. My confirmation was testing it for myself and being transformed. I don't care to convince you. I only cared about convincing myself.

So let me flip that around on you who are you trying to convince that you don't take it on faith that there is no God and what are your good reasons for that?
As to your first paragraph: your declarative statement of what is proof, is, well, simply a declaration, an empty epitaph.

As to the second: If you are doing all this simply to convince yourself, you can quit because you are there. Your mind is thoroughly closed.

As to the last: Proving a negative is illogical. How about you prove that I am wrong. Wait, don't bother, I can't bear another one of your long circular arguments of "I think, therefore God is".
You can't deal with the reality that I have theoretical proof using the light of reason to examine what was created and empirical proof by testing it through a relationship with the Trinity.

AND that you have no proof for your beliefs other than a weak as God didn't make a world devoid of suffering.

You take it on faith that God doesn't exist. You know you do. You can't prove a negative, right? So by definition you can have no proof, right? So you take it on faith.
The inability to prove a negative results in a draw, not a win for you and your figments. You are the one who has postured a belief system. Without thoroughly dismissing your God, it is possible to poke holes in your beliefs... so much or it is irrational: a compassionate omnipotent who let's millions, billions suffer.
I don't look at this as winning or losing.

I started from disbelief. So I would say I had thoroughly dismissed God.

I told you how Christianity reconciles suffering with a compassionate omnipotent God. Everything works for good. You keep dismissing it. Not on the grounds that it's not what Christianity teaches but on the grounds that you don't think that's what Christianity SHOULD teach because you find it repulsive. You - personally - cannot accept a compassionate omnipotent God that allows any suffering whatsoever.

And that's just a stupid belief.
So what you are saying is that your God is imperfect. On merit of some of what goes on in the world, I'd agree that your definition of God is erroneous. -thanks
Not even going to get into the fact ( and it is a fact) that a lot of Christian teachings (the resurrection and virgin birth being just two) are taken from previous 'religions'.

Vast majority of people who have a faith were born into it. Most Muslims are Muslims because that is what they were born into. Ditto Jews and Christians and Hindus.
 

Astrostar

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It's really that simple, everything that is, came to be what it is, because nothing decided to write genetic code
Hot dog! Finally some evidence! Let's see it!
 

Grumblenuts

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aflac-20200427045836656.jpg

Calmly now.. Hot cha cha.. Show Time!
 
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emilynghiem

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Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.

Solve the Riddle.
I don't see a riddle. I see confusion on your part.
The Riddle that you either did not see, or perhaps suggest is not a riddle, was at Post# 589.

Yes, I confess to a certain amount of confusion, unlike yourself and many religious people who profess to have all the answers.
You are making assumptions that just aren't true. I've addressed this a number of times. God created existence. All existence is good. You are blaming God for man's failure.
So, God created existence. I assume that God also created man as it'd be pretty hard that there be much of anything without existence.

Why does God not wish to take responsibility for man's flawed design?
It may be more technically accurate to say God is existence. But be that as it may be, He created our existence; the material world.

He doesn't. That's you blaming God for it. Thinking you would have done a better job. I guess in your world there would be no death, no illness, only good things. In fact, bad wouldn't even have meaning. Not sure you have thought that through but to each his own as they say.
Oh, I've thought about it and concede that the description of boring comes to mind.

But then, I'm not an omnipotent who should be able to design the thrill of a a roller coaster without subjecting small children to cancer, or a lifetime with two heads and one set of shoulders? Wow, does your God also pull the wings from flies?

Again, I point to the riddle... If God is unable to overcome evil and suffering why call him God?
I'm not sure how one designs the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat. Whatever will you do with all of those people who don't die in your world?
Let me help. We play a round of golf, I sink a hole in one and your ball lands in the water. You're disappointed but still alive and anxious for another day, another challenge.

As for all of those dead people, that's God's problem. He made the rules. He let them die.
I see it a little different. Your ball lands in the water and you curse why God didn't make it so you would never have to suffer adversity. My ball lands in the water and I ask myself what it was I was supposed to learn. Down the road you hit a hole in one and feel nothing because you expect God to have made a world where all of your shots go in the hole. I make a hole in one and am elated because I know that not all shots go in the hole and it's because not all shots go in the hole that I feel so much joy over the ones that do.
There's a very large difference between simple adversity and the real ugly that exist in the world.

What possible purpose is there to a child born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age? Would you dismiss that with, "It's okay, there will be other children"? And what was the gain to the dead infant? What lesson and wisdom do you assign to the extermination of six million Jews and how do you justify it to the six million? When religious people lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve?

You treat the victims of all the suffering as if they are unthinking, unfeeling golf balls.

There is no way around the wisdom reflected by the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence, he created man, he created all, and hence, is responsible for the product. It's that fucking simple.
No, I wouldn't dismiss it. Would you dismiss the overwhelmingly number of children who are born perfectly healthy?

Do you think the parents of children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age love them less? Or do they love them more because of it? Do you think that children born with a twisted agonized body only to die at a tender age don't have a positive affect upon the world? I think they do. I think the same would apply to the stillborn infant too.

What lesson and wisdom do I assign to the extermination of six million Jews? That's it's a bad idea to dehumanize human life and that when one does predictable consequences will ensue. How do I justify it to the six million? I don't. Life is not a value transaction. But some may argue that the establishment of Israel would not have occurred without it? How many lives did that end up saving in your cold hard value assessment? The question is will you only see the bad that comes from things or will you take a more balanced view.

When religious people (who were Democrats) lawfully owned, beat and raped other people in this country, what GODLY purpose did that serve? That human life is precious and that we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures and that humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. When religious people (who were Republicans) fought to end that injustice did you give them credit or learn anything from their efforts?

There is a away around the Epicurean Paradox. God created existence. Existence is good. Good is extant. Evil is not extant. It only exists as the absence of good.
The means by which you dismiss my questions suggest that Hitler really wasn't a bad fellow. God sent him to teach us about humanity, and Adolph obliged. Each of your attempts to excuse evil and suffering ignores victims as if they were mere currency in the purchase of God's Not-so-intelligent Design. Not a single thing you said of the agonized-twisted infant addressed the plight and suffering of that little PERSON. The child was disposable in a warped proof of God's Greater Good.

Apparently, God deems that the end justifies the means so long as good exceeds evil.

Your way around the Paradox is just another bogus effort to ignore God's inability to provide good without the use/presence of evil. As the riddle ask, "whence comes evil".

I'm not sure why you brought political parties into the conversation, but would remind you that somewhere in the middle or the prior century a contingent of Dems changed sides.
Hey, as I use to say in a different time and place... shit happens (unless you're a rabid reactionary).
I didn't dismiss your questions. I answered your questions. What question do you think I dismissed?

What does a bad fellow mean exactly? I don't believe anyone is all bad or all good. Do you? Do you think you are a good fellow? Do you do all good at all times? So to correct your assumption, I believe Hitler did some very bad things. It would be super nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth and then trying to bash me for the words you put there. That's not nice.

Who said God sent Hitler to teach us about humanity? You keep making false assumptions. You could just ask me and you could avoid having to hear my corrections. I believe it must be you who thinks God is turning knobs and controlling events on earth because it sure isn't me who believes that. God created existence. He imparted His attributes upon man. Man must choose to do good or bad. There is a self compensating feature of existence. Error eventually fails and truth is eventually discovered. Many times that discovery is a result of something bad that happened.

I never excused evil. Can you show me where I excused evil? Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good. That's not me excusing men who choose to do evil. That's stating reality. It is also reality that good comes from evil. That's not excusing evil either.

I didn't ignore the victims or the suffering of victims. In no way is my saying that good comes from bad a justification for evil or suffering. That's just stating reality. A reality you would most likely have no problem accepting if we weren't discussing God as the creator of existence. It's your bias that is clouding your judgement and results in your inability to take balanced positions an anything related to God.

It is a logical fallacy to say that unless everything is perfect there can be no creator.
You defined what is perfect. I don't recall even using the word.

There is no logical fallacy in insisting that one who tolerates evil and suffering is not God in the sense of a compassionate omnipotent. I am prepared that you will dodge the compassion issue by suggesting something on the order of God's Plan, that he works in mysterious ways. "In God We Trust", right?

I won't answer your lengthy post as I have another life. No offense, but this is not the medium for dissertations.

However, I allow for your right to faith. You need to do the same for me. The reality is that you have no proof, and I have no disproof (the latter a logical fallacy).
That's exactly what you are insinuating with your logical fallacy that God cannot exist unless this world meets your standard of perfection. It's a ridiculous assertion.

Of course I have proof. Existence is proof. It's not an accident that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. What evidence were you expecting to find? You want God to do some magic for you or something?
There is no fallacy in demanding a compassionate purpose in your God's tolerance for evil and suffering except to suggest that it is necessary in achieving his plan... in which case he is neither omnipotent nor a god at all. Is there a possibility that there is some unseen aspect of God which we are unable to grasp? I suppose there could be, but it can only be accepted as exactly that, a possibility - something taken on faith.

You set the standard for your God, not me. You deemed him both omnipotent and compassionate. It is your demand for this perfection, not mine. I'm simply holding your feet to the fire. I fully accept that the world is not perfect, but my point is not about the world's imperfection but about the imperfection of your God.

No intended offense, but you would do well to simply practice your faith and not try so hard to convince others that faith is proof. It is not.
How do you know what God's plan is to be able to judge his plan?
I don't and neither do you... at least not without indulging hearsay and faith.
But I'm not the one judging God as lacking. You are.

Believing there can be no creator because creation doesn't match your perception of what it should be is illogical.
Sorry but I cannot judge what I cannot see (God). I judge your perception of him because it does not match the realities of the world all around us.

If God is truly compassionate, when comes evil and why?

Btw, I don't necessarily believe that there is no creator. I just don't buy the fairytale that you are selling.
Dear BLUE COLLAR
Regarding evil there is individual fear/ignorance/greed/anger that causes suffering, some we can change some we cannot if it's chronic and involves greater sickness or personality disorders, or just selfish refusal or fear of changing. Some sickness or disease is natural or unnatural, like cancers that can heal or others that are terminal.

There are collective mentality levels of both good and evil that come from individual influence combining and escalating to a bigger scale.

And in addition to that, there are dark forces and energies that attract and attach themselves to these levels and create even more violent disruptions based on individuals and groups acting on negative impulses and motivations.

Why do these levels exist?

Humans have free will and ability to make decisions by reasoning, by learning from experience, and comparing cause and effects with good and bad consequences. This way, we choose to change our behavior and relations based on mutual maximum benefits, that are more effective and sustainable to secure our health, freedom and sense of justice peace and truth.

When we choose negative or unhealthy imbalanced ways, these attract or invoke negative energies and consequences, causing conflicts to escalate with stress, disease, damage or death.

These negative consequences motivate us to study what are the causes, what are the levels? How much was us, how much was from others, what was unnatural or natural?

When we forgive the wrongs and clear our minds, we can focus on causes and cures of problems.

So the three levels exist to teach us why we focus individually first, solve problems there within our reach and choice to change. And this in turn affects the other levels to reduce, correct or prevent harm instead of escalate.

We will never be perfectly omniscient and see all things coming to prevent them in advance. If humans had that, we would spend all our energy obsessing instead of enjoying life even with human flaws and quirks in nature where things can happen beyond our control. The point is to forgive and let go of fear of controlling everything. The things we CAN help, and do more to fix or prevent, forgiving helps clear our minds and communicate better to solve problems within our control. The things we cannot foresee or control, we learn to put these in perspective.

The whole learning processes uses both good and bad consequences for good and bad intentions and causes.

Good and evil forces merely follow the laws of cause and effect, which Buddhists call laws of karma, and Christians and natural laws call justice or Jesus (as God's authority of Justice embodied in man to fulfill the laws by recomciling in truth man's laws of justice with God's laws where these agree in Christ or by conscience).
Emily,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I particularly enjoyed your third to last paragraph and the closing one.

It is obvious that your faith has helped you construct a forward thinking attitude toward your fellows and life, and I agree with the great majority of what you wrote. I just don't accept that any of it connects to a supernatural cause - at least not one defined as an omnipotent. However, within reason, I do not rule out anything. Rather, I wander about the possibilities with the general conclusion that truly ultimate answers are unknowable.

Regardless, I respect that some people have accepted answers on faith. My only objection to that is that the nature of faith not be overlooked. I apologize if any of my present ramblings may have offended you. I have a low tolerance for faith that rises to conceit while sinking to illogic.

Thank you for your considerate reverence.
Dear BLUE COLLAR Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful reply as well.
No worries and no offense taken.
I am usually the one apologizing,
these subjects have always been challenging to discuss, and the frustration is mutual between people coming from nontheistic and religious backgrounds. We all have our own dialects and languages. I am used to approaching things from a secular mindset, learning what people mean by the religious terms and arguments, and then translating these back into secular terms that make sense to me. However, what works for me does not always translate well to others. I am glad some of my ways of expressing this do ring true with you. I hope this helps bridge gaps in communicating and understanding.

My mother is Buddhist and had to have monks explain things from a totally different cultural angle for her to resolve analogous issues. By the time we reach the same understanding, our answers may look nothing alike, as the questions we ask are different to begin with.

When translating idioms or ideas from one system to another, sometimes concepts or sayings just don't translate. And we have to start all over. That's okay, this is going to happen because everyone has their own native language and perception.

The good news, if I may encourage you not to give up, is that for every step or stretch you make to understand someone coming from the opposite side of the spectrum, that means you help them understand new perspectives from how you frame things. So the struggles are mutual but so are the rewards and benefits.

If we get stuck, arguing in circles or talking past each other, sometimes it's better to try a different angle, reword the question, and find a way to connect along a different line of thought. (Have you ever played charades, where the guessing just got derailed, so badly, you had to drop that, and start completely over with a totally different idea?)

If we can't agree what the nature or meaning of God is (some focus on God as Universal laws of life or nature, while others seek Wisdom which is closer to the Kingdom of God, not God directly) other angles we can try are comparing what Jesus means to different people, and the difference between retributive Justice and restorative Justice. Do we prefer justice by judgment and punishment? Or by mutual forgiveness and correction to restore good faith relations by meaningful restitution? Which way do which people seek justice, by enforcing laws or by making peace?

One pastor said he could talk about God by talking about Life: How is life treating you? Do you believe the forces of life tend toward postive good will and justice? Another Christian healing teacher talked about God as Nature, and the natural process was Life giving healing and restoration. I tend to promote understanding the healing process, because science and medicine can document how this works; it's a more tangible and practical application of the same concepts in Christianity about forgiveness renewing life while unforgiveness can kill people's mental and physical health and relations in society.

If we can talk about God in terms of establishing truth and receiving wisdom, why can't we talk about Jesus as the process of Justice coming for all humanity to receive and live by equally? I find discussing faith in Jesus and Justice brings up the same concepts and process.

Why not discuss the Holy Spirit in terms of peace, healing and comfort for Love of Humanity sake?

Whatever terms convey the same concepts and principles, it is more important to connect and reach the same understanding about common values we share universally, not fretting or dictating one system over another.

I think the rest we need to know will come, when we get over the fear and frustration that we may never see or say things like other people do.

Thanks BLUE COLLAR and I hope we do better in future conversations by seeking where we agree, and mutually succeed in communicating common truth, instead of seeking to argue points to make each other fail. Like a charades guessing game that gets stuck on a dead end, sometimes it's better to start over and find a better track.
 
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Grumblenuts

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Do we prefer justice by judgment and punishment? Or by mutual forgiveness and correction to restore good faith relations by meaningful restitution? Which way do which people seek justice, by enforcing laws or by making peace?
Can't one utilize and like some aspects of both? Cease and dismiss others? How does this become an either / or problem? What do "good faith relations" have to do with whether one claims "Faith" or not?
Like a charades guessing game that gets stuck on a dead end, sometimes it's better to start over and find a better track.
Right. High time folks gave up their childish sky fairy tales and immortality "convictions." Grow up and smell the endless dirt nap faced by us all. There's no magic escape valve. All we have is each other. Temporary, selfish delusion is the only "higher power." Being a willful lemming can only help increase the number of lemmings where fresh, freethinkers remain most needed and shortest in supply.
 
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BreezeWood

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Do we prefer justice by judgment and punishment? Or by mutual forgiveness and correction to restore good faith relations by meaningful restitution? Which way do which people seek justice, by enforcing laws or by making peace?
Can't one utilize and like some aspects of both? Cease and dismiss others? How does this become an either / or problem? What do "good faith relations" have to do with whether one claims "Faith" or not?
Like a charades guessing game that gets stuck on a dead end, sometimes it's better to start over and find a better track.
Right. High time folks gave up their childish sky fairy tales and immortality "convictions." Grow up and smell the endless dirt nap faced by us all. There's no magic escape valve. All we have is each other. Temporary, selfish delusion is the only "higher power." Being a willful lemming can only help increase the number of lemmings where fresh, freethinkers remain most needed and shortest in supply.
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Grow up and smell the endless dirt nap faced by us all. There's no magic escape valve.
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speak for yourself, nuts - you are so wrong ...
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1623690697394.png

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the spiritual transformation from one individual to another is already a metaphysical reality - the same transformation from a disappearing physiology for a freed spirit is simply the next evolutionary step for who may be up to the challenge.

or just renewing the existing physiology, creating a new one as above to last another 80+ years. and becoming the opposite sex just for fun.
 

emilynghiem

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Do we prefer justice by judgment and punishment? Or by mutual forgiveness and correction to restore good faith relations by meaningful restitution? Which way do which people seek justice, by enforcing laws or by making peace?
Can't one utilize and like some aspects of both? Cease and dismiss others? How does this become an either / or problem? What do "good faith relations" have to do with whether one claims "Faith" or not?
Like a charades guessing game that gets stuck on a dead end, sometimes it's better to start over and find a better track.
Right. High time folks gave up their childish sky fairy tales and immortality "convictions." Grow up and smell the endless dirt nap faced by us all. There's no magic escape valve. All we have is each other. Temporary, selfish delusion is the only "higher power." Being a willful lemming can only help increase the number of lemmings where fresh, freethinkers remain most needed and shortest in supply.
Sure we can have both retributive and restorative justice -- question is: can we agree to let those who want retributive laws live by that, not impose on restorative believers, and vice versa.
 

Grumblenuts

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Nah, I think retributive justice is an oxymoron, but "enforcing laws" should be considered "making peace" to some extent.
 

BreezeWood

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"Whence comes evil?"
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the delineation once crossed can only be resolved by an exertion greater than the incipient metaphysical force that eventually will end the life of any spirit attempting to be freed from its physiology to persist in the Everlasting.

whoever they may be, religious or not.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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So you have failed to demonstrate that everything comes from somewhere, which precludes the universe creating itself from nothing.

See I knew you would find the need for God
"Everything comes from somewhere! 'Cept my favorite magical gods! So not everything! Just ALMOST everything!"
 
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Dusty

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So you have failed to demonstrate that everything comes from somewhere, which precludes the universe creating itself from nothing.

See I knew you would find the need for God
"Everything comes from somewhere! 'Cept my favorite magical gods! So not everything! Just ALMOST everything!"
Tell us more about how nothing just created everything one day. I will try not to laugh
 

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