This is how socialism always ends...repression, violence, death, starvation, riots

[Tehon]

The problem is that society deserves and should charitably provide social nets. These are temporary "hands up" to allow people to get on their feet, give them a boost of confidence and the ability to pursue their dreams, whether modest or the most ambitious, as long as they are self sufficient and than in a position themselves to provide a hand up to others.

Socialism, communism, quasi-communism, nepotism, crony capitalism. All provide for the misery of the broadest number of people, while ensuring a central form of power and abuse. All aim to denounce or replace religion, whether purposely or incidentally. Stealing the soul from it's citizens, their very nature. I cannot say enough how much I despise socialism, especially in it's most covert and extreme forms.

On this issue, I am proud to say koshergrl (and many other good patriots on this site) wholeheartedly agree. The more we can expose this fraudulent and most vile of systems, the better. Especially for those young, naive and uninformed supporters of socialism that have become far too numerous in America of late.

I see you still haven't bothered to understand what is Socialism.

Seemingly no one in this thread understands it.

Socialism (Marxism) is a very specific thing.

It is not handouts or hand ups.

It is a reorganization of the means of production.

That step alone will reduce the need for social safety nets.

Capitalism is the problem.

Social safety nets do nothing to fix the problem.

 

[EverCurious]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You want Socialism, Marxism, go to another country cause America ain't it.

 

[koshergrl]

No, that is not what I said. That is a false narrative. And I already pointed that out when the lie was first stated in this thread.

I willing to say Venezuela was a shit hole and continued to be a shit hole with Hugo in charge in much of the same way as the no social programs didn't make Somalia a shit hole.

The truth is that that countries are run on balance... No socialism is actually anarchy and doesn't work just as too much too much Socialism is Communism and that doesn't work either... Every country has there balance between them.. That is why this headline is complete nonsense.

If then look at what is a government good at running and not good at then you can see results... Empirical evidence shows the Government are actually better at running Healthcare than Private, they do cheaper and get better results. That doesn't mean there should be no private insurance, universal care in Europe is a basic level cover (basic varies by country) but you have the option to buy more... I pay about $100 a month to get that top up but I can go higher or lower. But I have the most popular plan... About 50% of Irish people have private insurance...

While manufacturing is generally better by private business, they get the best out of innovation and creativity...

Balancing act...

The Government could own the road but use private business to maintain them... Nothing wrong with that either....

paraphrase..."Next time it will work great!"

So are you saying no socialism.

Cause that means no Defense, Environmental Protection, Police, Schools, Roads,.... Are you suggesting these should be all privatised?

No. I'm saying what I said. The fact that you keep trying to get me to.say something else shows you agree with my original statement.

Look at your heading... You said 'ALWAYS'...

ENDS. I said the end result of socialism. I didn't say every country with a socialist program or two is doomed. Instead of addressing my statement,.which is true, you keep.pretending I said something else. That's called changingnthe narrative. Speak to my comment and give up. You aren't clever enough to.accomplish what you are.trying.to do.

 

[Tehon]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

 

[EverCurious]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

WRONG. Socialism (Marxism) ends with resentment for those that do because of those who do not OR the economy collapses because it cannot produce enough to support all (same problem, different analysis) - ALWAYS. You can see it all over the ******* world, every single time and nearly every single form of socialism tried. Even setting aside the natural slide into facism/communism etc the truth that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The resentment sets in, because some are working their ass off and getting the exact same as others who do nothing (Watch episode III, the ONLY most pure form of Marxism that existed fell for the same reason as all the others) OR it becomes financially unsustainable.

You cannot change a human, no matter when you start indoctrinating them. We are biologically driven to be /better/ than others, it is part of our very nature (mostly in the reproductive sense, to appear more appealing, but also that chemical/emotional drive to succeed, to be better, to leave our children in a better state. Marxism sought to /mold/ people into ants, we are not ants, we are not a collective, we are not borg. We are humans, we are individuals, we are independent, we are anti-socialist. You fall into the trap, most likely your life sucks, you think that others can change your life, let you do whatever it is you seek to do, without work, without worries about health care and paying bills and shit. But socialism cannot give you that for any length of time.

The principles of capitalism are the core natural state of human existence; /it/ is the pinnacle, it is what comes /after/ socialism fails. In the beginning we had socialist society/communities, we had collectives of families or villages - we did not stay there. Ask yourself why. Because humans desire more, they want better, they want fancier houses, they want better cars, better phones, they want better computers and better everything. They want independence, they want freedom to express themselves and be as they wish to buy what they want - none of which is possible under socialism. Socialism doles out all things equally, regardless of effort put in, it strips us of our ability to /better/ ourselves because everyone receives the same regardless of effort.

It is the so-called "regression of civilization," the backward trend into the small town farmer that the left is so fond of hating on - stupid, fly over states. THOSE places, those tight knit societies where they help their neighbors and tend each others farms are the closest to socialism in a "realistic" and enduring state as you will ever find - and you lefties /despise/ them. Everything you fight for, is on a rural dirt road outside your crappy cities - and you shit on it from your fancy apartments like the elitist pricks you claim to hate. You socialists are nothing but morons because you have not found the utopia sitting in the middle of North or South Dakota, the bush of Alaska, the deserts of Arizona and Nevada, and the ranchers and cowboys of Texas - all those places you hate idiot boy. Where the church you so hate is the social(ist) community collective and small municipalities rules are decided upon in small town halls held in the local coffee shop; where the people genuinely care about each other and they all work together toward the common good of their town or county. Yes, you'll work hard in a farm community, but you'll be respected for that work, by your community, your people and if shit hits the fan and your farm floods, they'll all drop everything to help you rebuild. A fire burns down a house, the community pulls together and rebuilds it.

You turn your noses up because you want more than the simple life that Marxism would offer you, you like all humans, want it all - and that is why socialism destroys itself in the end. Because you'll want it all, but have no way to obtain it because of socialism. When socialism fails - it goes naturally to capitalism, where people have the ability to rise above the their mere "needs" and instead reach as high as their own ambitions can take them. Under your own hand, not the governments, not the states, not the community, or even the village and that too is the beauty and endurance of the small town life in rural America, you can leave it - it's not a dead end trap like socialism is.

 

[Tehon]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

WRONG. Socialism (Marxism) ends with resentment for those that do because of those who do not OR the economy collapses because it cannot produce enough to support all (same problem, different analysis) - ALWAYS. You can see it all over the ******* world, every single time and nearly every single form of socialism tried. Even setting aside the natural slide into facism/communism etc the truth that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The resentment sets in, because some are working their ass off and getting the exact same as others who do nothing (Watch episode III, the ONLY most pure form of Marxism that existed fell for the same reason as all the others) OR it becomes financially unsustainable.

You cannot change a human, no matter when you start indoctrinating them. We are biologically driven to be /better/ than others, it is part of our very nature (mostly in the reproductive sense, to appear more appealing, but also that chemical/emotional drive to succeed, to be better, to leave our children in a better state. Marxism sought to /mold/ people into ants, we are not ants, we are not a collective, we are not borg. We are humans, we are individuals, we are independent, we are anti-socialist. You fall into the trap, most likely your life sucks, you think that others can change your life, let you do whatever it is you seek to do, without work, without worries about health care and paying bills and shit. But socialism cannot give you that for any length of time.

The principles of capitalism are the core natural state of human existence; /it/ is the pinnacle, it is what comes /after/ socialism fails. In the beginning we had socialist society/communities, we had collectives of families or villages - we did not stay there. Ask yourself why. Because humans desire more, they want better, they want fancier houses, they want better cars, better phones, they want better computers and better everything. They want independence, they want freedom to express themselves and be as they wish to buy what they want - none of which is possible under socialism. Socialism doles out all things equally, regardless of effort put in, it strips us of our ability to /better/ ourselves because everyone receives the same regardless of effort.

It is the so-called "regression of civilization," the backward trend into the small town farmer that the left is so fond of hating on - stupid, fly over states. THOSE places, those tight knit societies where they help their neighbors and tend each others farms are the closest to socialism in a "realistic" and enduring state as you will ever find - and you lefties /despise/ them. Everything you fight for, is on a rural dirt road outside your crappy cities - and you shit on it from your fancy apartments like the elitist pricks you claim to hate. You socialists are nothing but morons because you have not found the utopia sitting in the middle of North or South Dakota, the bush of Alaska, the deserts of Arizona and Nevada, and the ranchers and cowboys of Texas - all those places you hate idiot boy. Where the church you so hate is the social(ist) community collective and small municipalities rules are decided upon in small town halls held in the local coffee shop; where the people genuinely care about each other and they all work together toward the common good of their town or county. Yes, you'll work hard in a farm community, but you'll be respected for that work, by your community, your people and if shit hits the fan and your farm floods, they'll all drop everything to help you rebuild. A fire burns down a house, the community pulls together and rebuilds it.

You turn your noses up because you want more than the simple life that Marxism would offer you, you like all humans, want it all - and that is why socialism destroys itself in the end. Because you'll want it all, but have no way to obtain it because of socialism. When socialism fails - it goes naturally to capitalism, where people have the ability to rise above the their mere "needs" and instead reach as high as their own ambitions can take them. Under your own hand, not the governments, not the states, not the community, or even the village and that too is the beauty and endurance of the small town life in rural America, you can leave it - it's not a dead end trap like socialism is.

That's a lot of words just to say you don't understand Marxian theory.

 

[koshergrl]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

WRONG. Socialism (Marxism) ends with resentment for those that do because of those who do not OR the economy collapses because it cannot produce enough to support all (same problem, different analysis) - ALWAYS. You can see it all over the ******* world, every single time and nearly every single form of socialism tried. Even setting aside the natural slide into facism/communism etc the truth that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The resentment sets in, because some are working their ass off and getting the exact same as others who do nothing (Watch episode III, the ONLY most pure form of Marxism that existed fell for the same reason as all the others) OR it becomes financially unsustainable.

You cannot change a human, no matter when you start indoctrinating them. We are biologically driven to be /better/ than others, it is part of our very nature (mostly in the reproductive sense, to appear more appealing, but also that chemical/emotional drive to succeed, to be better, to leave our children in a better state. Marxism sought to /mold/ people into ants, we are not ants, we are not a collective, we are not borg. We are humans, we are individuals, we are independent, we are anti-socialist. You fall into the trap, most likely your life sucks, you think that others can change your life, let you do whatever it is you seek to do, without work, without worries about health care and paying bills and shit. But socialism cannot give you that for any length of time.

The principles of capitalism are the core natural state of human existence; /it/ is the pinnacle, it is what comes /after/ socialism fails. In the beginning we had socialist society/communities, we had collectives of families or villages - we did not stay there. Ask yourself why. Because humans desire more, they want better, they want fancier houses, they want better cars, better phones, they want better computers and better everything. They want independence, they want freedom to express themselves and be as they wish to buy what they want - none of which is possible under socialism. Socialism doles out all things equally, regardless of effort put in, it strips us of our ability to /better/ ourselves because everyone receives the same regardless of effort.

It is the so-called "regression of civilization," the backward trend into the small town farmer that the left is so fond of hating on - stupid, fly over states. THOSE places, those tight knit societies where they help their neighbors and tend each others farms are the closest to socialism in a "realistic" and enduring state as you will ever find - and you lefties /despise/ them. Everything you fight for, is on a rural dirt road outside your crappy cities - and you shit on it from your fancy apartments like the elitist pricks you claim to hate. You socialists are nothing but morons because you have not found the utopia sitting in the middle of North or South Dakota, the bush of Alaska, the deserts of Arizona and Nevada, and the ranchers and cowboys of Texas - all those places you hate idiot boy. Where the church you so hate is the social(ist) community collective and small municipalities rules are decided upon in small town halls held in the local coffee shop; where the people genuinely care about each other and they all work together toward the common good of their town or county. Yes, you'll work hard in a farm community, but you'll be respected for that work, by your community, your people and if shit hits the fan and your farm floods, they'll all drop everything to help you rebuild. A fire burns down a house, the community pulls together and rebuilds it.

You turn your noses up because you want more than the simple life that Marxism would offer you, you like all humans, want it all - and that is why socialism destroys itself in the end. Because you'll want it all, but have no way to obtain it because of socialism. When socialism fails - it goes naturally to capitalism, where people have the ability to rise above the their mere "needs" and instead reach as high as their own ambitions can take them. Under your own hand, not the governments, not the states, not the community, or even the village and that too is the beauty and endurance of the small town life in rural America, you can leave it - it's not a dead end trap like socialism is.

That's a lot of words just to say you don't understand Marxian theory.

He may or may not understand it, but one thing he's 100 percent dead on about.

It ALWAYS fails. It fails because the ideology puts no value upon humanity and has no moral ideal. The combination of worshiping the State, and devaluing human life, has deadly consequences, every single time.

 

[Tehon]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

WRONG. Socialism (Marxism) ends with resentment for those that do because of those who do not OR the economy collapses because it cannot produce enough to support all (same problem, different analysis) - ALWAYS. You can see it all over the ******* world, every single time and nearly every single form of socialism tried. Even setting aside the natural slide into facism/communism etc the truth that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The resentment sets in, because some are working their ass off and getting the exact same as others who do nothing (Watch episode III, the ONLY most pure form of Marxism that existed fell for the same reason as all the others) OR it becomes financially unsustainable.

You cannot change a human, no matter when you start indoctrinating them. We are biologically driven to be /better/ than others, it is part of our very nature (mostly in the reproductive sense, to appear more appealing, but also that chemical/emotional drive to succeed, to be better, to leave our children in a better state. Marxism sought to /mold/ people into ants, we are not ants, we are not a collective, we are not borg. We are humans, we are individuals, we are independent, we are anti-socialist. You fall into the trap, most likely your life sucks, you think that others can change your life, let you do whatever it is you seek to do, without work, without worries about health care and paying bills and shit. But socialism cannot give you that for any length of time.

The principles of capitalism are the core natural state of human existence; /it/ is the pinnacle, it is what comes /after/ socialism fails. In the beginning we had socialist society/communities, we had collectives of families or villages - we did not stay there. Ask yourself why. Because humans desire more, they want better, they want fancier houses, they want better cars, better phones, they want better computers and better everything. They want independence, they want freedom to express themselves and be as they wish to buy what they want - none of which is possible under socialism. Socialism doles out all things equally, regardless of effort put in, it strips us of our ability to /better/ ourselves because everyone receives the same regardless of effort.

It is the so-called "regression of civilization," the backward trend into the small town farmer that the left is so fond of hating on - stupid, fly over states. THOSE places, those tight knit societies where they help their neighbors and tend each others farms are the closest to socialism in a "realistic" and enduring state as you will ever find - and you lefties /despise/ them. Everything you fight for, is on a rural dirt road outside your crappy cities - and you shit on it from your fancy apartments like the elitist pricks you claim to hate. You socialists are nothing but morons because you have not found the utopia sitting in the middle of North or South Dakota, the bush of Alaska, the deserts of Arizona and Nevada, and the ranchers and cowboys of Texas - all those places you hate idiot boy. Where the church you so hate is the social(ist) community collective and small municipalities rules are decided upon in small town halls held in the local coffee shop; where the people genuinely care about each other and they all work together toward the common good of their town or county. Yes, you'll work hard in a farm community, but you'll be respected for that work, by your community, your people and if shit hits the fan and your farm floods, they'll all drop everything to help you rebuild. A fire burns down a house, the community pulls together and rebuilds it.

You turn your noses up because you want more than the simple life that Marxism would offer you, you like all humans, want it all - and that is why socialism destroys itself in the end. Because you'll want it all, but have no way to obtain it because of socialism. When socialism fails - it goes naturally to capitalism, where people have the ability to rise above the their mere "needs" and instead reach as high as their own ambitions can take them. Under your own hand, not the governments, not the states, not the community, or even the village and that too is the beauty and endurance of the small town life in rural America, you can leave it - it's not a dead end trap like socialism is.

That's a lot of words just to say you don't understand Marxian theory.

He may or may not understand it, but one thing he's 100 percent dead on about.

It ALWAYS fails. It fails because the ideology puts no value upon humanity and has no moral ideal. The combination of worshiping the State, and devaluing human life, has deadly consequences, every single time.

Thank you. You've never read Marx either. We have a lot of experts here, but no one seems to have read him.

 

[Mac1958]

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

Could you provide an example of this happening somewhere else?
.

 

[koshergrl]

Socialism is the act of taking away the ability of a man to rise out of poverty by his own two hands, and giving that means, at gun point, to the government. It is the theft of private property and handing it over to the state. It is the destruction of individualism, the destruction of freedom, and the destruction of the American Constitution.

You made that up. Nothing of what you just spewed in any way resembles Marxist theory.

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

WRONG. Socialism (Marxism) ends with resentment for those that do because of those who do not OR the economy collapses because it cannot produce enough to support all (same problem, different analysis) - ALWAYS. You can see it all over the ******* world, every single time and nearly every single form of socialism tried. Even setting aside the natural slide into facism/communism etc the truth that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The resentment sets in, because some are working their ass off and getting the exact same as others who do nothing (Watch episode III, the ONLY most pure form of Marxism that existed fell for the same reason as all the others) OR it becomes financially unsustainable.

You cannot change a human, no matter when you start indoctrinating them. We are biologically driven to be /better/ than others, it is part of our very nature (mostly in the reproductive sense, to appear more appealing, but also that chemical/emotional drive to succeed, to be better, to leave our children in a better state. Marxism sought to /mold/ people into ants, we are not ants, we are not a collective, we are not borg. We are humans, we are individuals, we are independent, we are anti-socialist. You fall into the trap, most likely your life sucks, you think that others can change your life, let you do whatever it is you seek to do, without work, without worries about health care and paying bills and shit. But socialism cannot give you that for any length of time.

The principles of capitalism are the core natural state of human existence; /it/ is the pinnacle, it is what comes /after/ socialism fails. In the beginning we had socialist society/communities, we had collectives of families or villages - we did not stay there. Ask yourself why. Because humans desire more, they want better, they want fancier houses, they want better cars, better phones, they want better computers and better everything. They want independence, they want freedom to express themselves and be as they wish to buy what they want - none of which is possible under socialism. Socialism doles out all things equally, regardless of effort put in, it strips us of our ability to /better/ ourselves because everyone receives the same regardless of effort.

It is the so-called "regression of civilization," the backward trend into the small town farmer that the left is so fond of hating on - stupid, fly over states. THOSE places, those tight knit societies where they help their neighbors and tend each others farms are the closest to socialism in a "realistic" and enduring state as you will ever find - and you lefties /despise/ them. Everything you fight for, is on a rural dirt road outside your crappy cities - and you shit on it from your fancy apartments like the elitist pricks you claim to hate. You socialists are nothing but morons because you have not found the utopia sitting in the middle of North or South Dakota, the bush of Alaska, the deserts of Arizona and Nevada, and the ranchers and cowboys of Texas - all those places you hate idiot boy. Where the church you so hate is the social(ist) community collective and small municipalities rules are decided upon in small town halls held in the local coffee shop; where the people genuinely care about each other and they all work together toward the common good of their town or county. Yes, you'll work hard in a farm community, but you'll be respected for that work, by your community, your people and if shit hits the fan and your farm floods, they'll all drop everything to help you rebuild. A fire burns down a house, the community pulls together and rebuilds it.

You turn your noses up because you want more than the simple life that Marxism would offer you, you like all humans, want it all - and that is why socialism destroys itself in the end. Because you'll want it all, but have no way to obtain it because of socialism. When socialism fails - it goes naturally to capitalism, where people have the ability to rise above the their mere "needs" and instead reach as high as their own ambitions can take them. Under your own hand, not the governments, not the states, not the community, or even the village and that too is the beauty and endurance of the small town life in rural America, you can leave it - it's not a dead end trap like socialism is.

That's a lot of words just to say you don't understand Marxian theory.

He may or may not understand it, but one thing he's 100 percent dead on about.

It ALWAYS fails. It fails because the ideology puts no value upon humanity and has no moral ideal. The combination of worshiping the State, and devaluing human life, has deadly consequences, every single time.

Thank you. You've never read Marx either. We have a lot of experts here, but no one seems to have read him.

I actually have read Marx, I just was not brainwashed by Marx. Plus I understand the written word, unlike some, including you, apparently.

You don't have to *read marx* to look at the history of the world and see that communism/socialism in every form fails, miserably, every single time.

 

[Tehon]

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

Could you provide an example of this happening somewhere else?
.

I cannot. It hasn't yet happened.

 

[EverCurious]

<-- SHE has read Marx as well. His entire purpose was to create a utopian society, he believed that to do so he needed to /change/ humans into "perfect" people, who would be all giving, unselfish, and have no individualism. It is not the /natural/ state of humans, it is a perversion of the natural biological state of humans - which is exceptionalism, a means to be a better mate/attract more mates at it's root, capitalism is merely the modern rendition reproductive attraction. Marx wrongly thought that he could change humans to be equal, but that doesn't work in the real world because there will always be /exceptional/ persons and shit persons in a society. The exceptional persons become pissed off under socialism because the shit people are getting the same as they are, no matter what - even though that "exceptional" person, rightly or wrongly, believes themselves superior. That is the gut of class systems - some people are better than others, some people deserve more than others. This is a law of biology and you cannot get rid of it, you never will, which is why socialism will always fail. The people will decide they want /more/ than what socialism provides them, they will rebel, and they will turn to capitalism which celebrates individual merit and freedom.

 

[EverCurious]

The furthest democratic (aka voted for) socialism /ever/ got was Israel's Kibbutz - Kibbutz - Wikipedia

ith time, the kibbutz members' sense of identification with the kibbutz and its goals decreased. This process originated both from personal frustrations among the kibbutz members as a result of internal processes and from the growing stratification and inequality due to the growth of capitalistic practices.[15] Over the years, some kibbutz members established professional careers outside the kibbutz, accumulating power, privileges and prestige.[16] The balance between individual values and values of the kibbutz began to tip, and work motivation was affected. An emphasis was placed on social compensation to encourage productivity. These processes occurred in parallel with a severe economic crisis.

• The privatization processes and the adoption of non-cooperative beliefs in all of the Israeli society, affected the moral and structural support of kibbutzim, and with the years penetrated the new generations of the kibbutzim.
• The kibbutzim were built on the attempt to create a permanent and institutionalized framework, which would be able to set a pattern of conduct that would successfully handle the implementation of shared values. The attempt to place such a regular pattern required creativity in the adoption of kibbutz practices to its growth and changing kibbutz system and encompassing society, but kibbutz leadership suppressed innovators and critical thinkers, causing either failures to deal with changes or adoption of capitalist solutions that negated kibbutz basic principles.[17]
• The kibbutzim had a rural patterns of settlements, while over the years the Israeli society began adopting urban patterns of settlements. The lack of match between the patterns of the kibbutz society and the majority of the Israeli society, appealed the strong linkage between the kibbutzim with the entire Israeli society, a principle that did not allow the continuation of the collaborative model (because of the internal weakening and the loss of the all-Israeli legitimacy).
• The kibbutzim were established during the pioneer period and were the fulfilment of the Zionist vision, during that period of time every member was required to give the maximum from himself for the good of the collective: the kibbutz and the state. In addition, as a group it was easier to deal with the common problems of the individuals—which allowed the recruitment of a large number of people for maintaining the safety of the community at that time, and therefore this way of life was suited for the Zionist goals more than other forms of life at that time.
• The original concept of the kibbutzim was based to a large extent on self-sacrifice of its members for the sake of abstract foundations and not on the cancellation of work, and therefore after the pioneer period the linkage between the kibbutz members decreased, due to the decline in the pioneering spirit and the decline in the importance of the self-sacrifice values.
• When the kibbutz was perceived as an initiator for values and national objectives, it was very much appreciated in the Israeli society and it was easier for the members to identify themselves with the kibbutz, its function and its significance. With the decrease of its appreciation and the minimizing of the social significances in the Israeli society, the kibbutz identity weakened.
• The kibbutzim were not capable of dealing with the increase in the standard of living in order to keep the communal values relevant, which eventually led to the changes in patterns of life of many members, undermining the relevancy of the communal framework, which was not adapted to this.
• The globalization processes and the kibbutz failure to block them exposed the kibbutz society to a different type of culture. For example, after kibbutz members were allowed to have television sets in their own homes, the kibbutz members were exposed to "the good life" in which people were compensated for their work and could buy themselves different luxurious items. The kibbutzim were not capable of dealing with these processes.[18]
• The collapse of the Communist bloc resulted in the weakening of Socialist beliefs around the world, including in the kibbutz society.

During the 1980s, following the peak of the kibbutzim crisis, many people started leaving their kibbutzim, and there was considerable tension due to the economic situation. In order to cope with the situation, some kibbutzim began to change in various ways.

The changes that occurred could be divided into three main types:

• Extensive privatization of the kibbutz services—in fact, such privatization had been introduced over the past two decades in many kibbutzim. Most of these privatization processes, however, were made in matters that were considered relatively minor. Currently, many kibbutzim that have privatized (some of them with subsidies) have also privatized the education and health systems, which were once considered untouchable.[citation needed]
• "Differential wage"—one famous characteristic of the kibbutzim was that each kibbutz member received an equal budget according to his or her needs, regardless of what job they held. In many kibbutzim, members are now paid differentially based on the work they do.
• "Association of properties"—refers to the transfer of some of the properties belonging to the kibbutz, in its capacity as a cooperative commonality, to the ownership of individual kibbutz members. This is actually true privatization (unlike the services privatization). These assets include the homes where the members live and a sort of a "stock" in the manufacturing component of the kibbutz. This change allows kibbutz members to sell and bequeath both types of properties, within certain limitations.

Since the mid-1990s, the number of kibbutzim making significant changes in their lifestyle continued to grow, while the resistance to these changes gradually decreased, with only a few dozen kibbutzim still functioning under more traditional models. It is important to note, however, that each kibbutz has undergone different processes of change. There are many people, outside and inside the kibbutzim, who claim these changes bring the end of the kibbutz concept. Among the communities that had recently officially ceased being kibbutzim are Megiddo in the Jezreel Valley, HagGoshrim in the Upper Galilee, Beyt Nir in the Negev, etc.[citation needed]

These processes have created the "renewing kibbutz" (הקיבוץ המתחדש )—a kibbutz settlement pattern not fully based on the original values of the kibbutz. Kibbutzim continuing under the original kibbutz values are associated with the "collaborative model" (הזרם השיתופי).

New compensation models
There are now three kibbutz compensation models. 1) The traditional collective kibbutz/kibbutz shitufi, in which members are compensated equally, regardless of what work each member does; 2) the mixed model kibbutz/kibbutz meshulav, in which each member is given a small percentage of his salary along with a basic component given equally to all kibbutz members; and 3) the renewing kibbutz/kibbutz mithadesh, in which a member's income consists solely of his individual income from his work and sometimes includes income from other kibbutz sources.[19]

According to a survey conducted by the University of Haifa 188 of all kibbutzim (72%) are now converted to the "renewing kibbutz" model, which could be described as more individualistic kibbutz. Dr. Shlomo Getz, head of the Institute for the Research of the Kibbutz and the Cooperative Idea believes that by the end of 2012, there will be more kibbutzim switching to some alternative model.[19]

 

[Mac1958]

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

Could you provide an example of this happening somewhere else?.

I cannot. It hasn't yet happened.

I appreciate the candor. What would it look like here, and what makes you confident it would bring true liberty to the masses, when it hasn't yet?
.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Since we don't have either a governmental or social system even remotely similar to Venezuela,

what's the point here?

We were as close to being one Bernie away from having it.

The majority of Democrats are socialists.

Liberal and Progressive and Democrat are used interchangeably in general parlance...And a 2012 Gallup poll found that 53 percent of Democrats and 39 percent of Americans more generally had a positive reaction to the word socialism.

Democrats, Republicans Diverge on Capitalism, Federal Gov't

Liberals are admitted socialists.


Perhaps it's time to re-name 'Liberals' as socialists....after all, it was the origninal name of the party that communist John Dewey talked into changing their name to 'Liberal."

 

[Tehon]

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

Could you provide an example of this happening somewhere else?.

I cannot. It hasn't yet happened.

I appreciate the candor. What would it look like here, and what makes you confident it would bring true liberty to the masses, when it hasn't yet?
.

It hasn't yet because it hasn't been tried yet. That is the point of my presence in this thread. Marx developed a whole theory that, as far as I'm aware, has been ignored by every "Socialist" country anyone cares to name. They have all practiced a variation of capitalism.

 

[EverCurious]

I just posted about the Kibbutz, they are the best and longest lasting democratic socialist society based on Marxism ever tried - and it failed.

Tehon, why do you want socialism?

 

[Tehon]

I just posted about the Kibbutz, they are the best and longest lasting democratic socialist society based on Marxism ever tried - and it failed.

Tehon, why do you want socialism?

It's not going to happen in my lifetime but I think it is inevitable.

I would just like an honest conversation about what it is.

 

[EverCurious]

I just posted about the Kibbutz, they are the best and longest lasting democratic socialist society based on Marxism ever tried - and it failed.

Tehon, why do you want socialism?

It's not going to happen in my lifetime but I think it is inevitable.

I would just like an honest conversation about what it is.

Well I'm asking for one and you're blowing off everything I say - I know you didn't read everything I've posted. Lets start again then.

Why do you want socialism?

 

[Tehon]

I just posted about the Kibbutz, they are the best and longest lasting democratic socialist society based on Marxism ever tried - and it failed.

Tehon, why do you want socialism?

It's not going to happen in my lifetime but I think it is inevitable.

I would just like an honest conversation about what it is.

Well I'm asking for one and you're blowing off everything I say - I know you didn't read everything I've posted. Lets start again then.

Why do you want socialism?

It will create more freedom.