This is... Catholic?!

[ogibillm]

That is mere assertion. A child has to be taught about atheism, there is no deity.

Doesn't work logically.

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

children are born believing in a deity?

Those are your words, not mine. And you can't prove they are not. Earliest man has left traces that he believe in something bigger than himself. That will never change.

Believe or not as you wish, but try not to interfere with others' beliefs. You have the protection of the Constitution and enough actual believers' support for your right to believe to not be threatened by the crazy social conservatives.

while i suppose it's true that i can't prove that children are born without belief i would find it difficult to believe that they do since they don't even have a concept of their own hands.

and i'm not disagreeing with you on the protections of the constitution.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Enough instances suggest to me that a sizable minority among the Millennials and a few among the younger genXrs that a movement is afoot to deny the religious to have the right to say in the public forum. One, such a movement does not have the support of the Constitution. Two, such an effort if pushed will have a very unhappy consequence for the anti-Godists, because the majority of religionists greatly outnumber the Anti-Godists. The latter will be startled to find that many agnostics and atheists will side with the religionists.

First I have heard of this movement, Jake.

Do you have any links?

And yes, as an atheist I will stand with the theists and the Constitution to protect the rights of theists to their beliefs.

 

[turzovka]

So I was bored at work and found this Wikipedia article: Catholic social teaching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I skimmed through it and a fearful coldness began creeping up my spine as I realized someone had more or less written my own values verbatim. Somehow Catholics have basically copied everything I believe in, which offends and horrifies me as a secular atheist to the core. Is there any other group or whatever that teaches these things?

Yes, well you may have a point. Catholic social teaching could very well reflect many of the same teachings, values or quests of an atheist or agnostic. No problem there for me.

But where we might differ is what we consider to be of the highest importance in conducting oneself. Or, what is the primary mission of the Catholic Church?

I did not extract this from the Catechism but as one priest put it “The primary mission of the Church is for the salvation of souls. And then to work to build God’s Kingdom on Earth. To build God’s Kingdom means to work to create a world that reflects the innate, God-given, dignity and worth of every human being.”

Social teaching would fall under some part of that second half. But still, heaven is the quest, make no mistake. But to do that, a great deal of charity is required (lest we lose the way or find ourselves in purgatory a very long time). Matthew 25:31-46 (The Last Judgment) drives that point home as succinctly as can be. Let no protestant adherent or theologian tell you any differently. They do not even believe in purgatory --- consequently, their instant “get of jail free” card is more detrimental than it is doing others a great service.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

[Yes, well you may have a point. Catholic social teaching could very well reflect many of the same teachings, values or quests of an atheist or agnostic. No problem there for me.

But where we might differ is what we consider to be of the highest importance in conducting oneself. Or, what is the primary mission of the Catholic Church?

I did not extract this from the Catechism but as one priest put it “The primary mission of the Church is for the salvation of souls. And then to work to build God’s Kingdom on Earth. To build God’s Kingdom means to work to create a world that reflects the innate, God-given, dignity and worth of every human being.”

Social teaching would fall under some part of that second half. But still, heaven is the quest, make no mistake. But to do that, a great deal of charity is required (lest we lose the way or find ourselves in purgatory a very long time). Matthew 25:31-46 (The Last Judgment) drives that point home as succinctly as can be. Let no protestant adherent or theologian tell you any differently. They do not even believe in purgatory --- consequently, their instant “get of jail free” card is more detrimental than it is doing others a great service.

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I believe in the Sun God. That religion has been around for probably hundreds of thousands of years. I am absolutely sure that the sun will exist long after christianity is gone.

 

[turzovka]

[Yes, well you may have a point. Catholic social teaching could very well reflect many of the same teachings, values or quests of an atheist or agnostic. No problem there for me.

But where we might differ is what we consider to be of the highest importance in conducting oneself. Or, what is the primary mission of the Catholic Church?

I did not extract this from the Catechism but as one priest put it “The primary mission of the Church is for the salvation of souls. And then to work to build God’s Kingdom on Earth. To build God’s Kingdom means to work to create a world that reflects the innate, God-given, dignity and worth of every human being.”

Social teaching would fall under some part of that second half. But still, heaven is the quest, make no mistake. But to do that, a great deal of charity is required (lest we lose the way or find ourselves in purgatory a very long time). Matthew 25:31-46 (The Last Judgment) drives that point home as succinctly as can be. Let no protestant adherent or theologian tell you any differently. They do not even believe in purgatory --- consequently, their instant “get of jail free” card is more detrimental than it is doing others a great service.

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

I would not be one to tell you that a Catholic who cares for his brother does not consider the care and love he shows to his brother as and end unto itself. I think he would since it probably strikes most all us as a good and natural act of kindness bringing comfort to another.

But it is also the second highest command God gave us as well. So there is more to it than just that one "end."

 

[JakeStarkey]

Enough instances suggest to me that a sizable minority among the Millennials and a few among the younger genXrs that a movement is afoot to deny the religious to have the right to say in the public forum. One, such a movement does not have the support of the Constitution. Two, such an effort if pushed will have a very unhappy consequence for the anti-Godists, because the majority of religionists greatly outnumber the Anti-Godists. The latter will be startled to find that many agnostics and atheists will side with the religionists.

First I have heard of this movement, Jake.

Do you have any links?

And yes, as an atheist I will stand with the theists and the Constitution to protect the rights of theists to their beliefs.

I first noted proponents of virulent anti-Godism at the University of Utah early in 2013 and on this Board. The point is not opposition, I think, as it is for removing religious discussion and values from the public square. All sides have to be safe in believing and presenting those beliefs in the public square.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Enough instances suggest to me that a sizable minority among the Millennials and a few among the younger genXrs that a movement is afoot to deny the religious to have the right to say in the public forum. One, such a movement does not have the support of the Constitution. Two, such an effort if pushed will have a very unhappy consequence for the anti-Godists, because the majority of religionists greatly outnumber the Anti-Godists. The latter will be startled to find that many agnostics and atheists will side with the religionists.

First I have heard of this movement, Jake.

Do you have any links?

And yes, as an atheist I will stand with the theists and the Constitution to protect the rights of theists to their beliefs.

I first noted proponents of virulent anti-Godism at the University of Utah early in 2013 and on this Board. The point is not opposition, I think, as it is for removing religious discussion and values from the public square. All sides have to be safe in believing and presenting those beliefs in the public square.

There must be a healthy debate from all sides on issues that impact the rights of We the People.

I know that I have been a strong proponent of freedom FROM religion and it is a concept that many theists simply don't comprehend. Without freedom from religion there is no freedom OF religion.

So yes, there is still a lot to discuss and both sides need to be free to express their views because that is another right that we must uphold for each other, that of freedom of speech.

If I come across any attempts to suppress religious discussion I will oppose it.

 

[BluePhantom]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

 

[Bonzi]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

 

[JakeStarkey]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

 

[Bonzi]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

 

[Derideo_Te]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

Agreed!

There is a problem with theists that they will refuse to acknowledge but it exists.

They seem to suspend any and all critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. In essence anyone can stand up in front of them and say the most outrageous nonsense and they will just instantly believe that it is true without any question. They take gullibility to a whole new level. And yes, that makes them susceptible to becoming victims of religious shysters and hucksters.

Having had the opportunity to be a very small part of actual missionary work in the field I know that it isn't even close to what is being related here. I even had the opportunity to spend some quality time with a minister of religion who was over here from Africa and the topic of missionary work came up. He said that Americans are very generous but really don't grasp the reality of the situations that exist in Africa. It is more about the daily grind of existence than the "salvation of souls".

 

[Derideo_Te]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

No, he is just at a very different level than you are when it comes to faith. And you should be so lucky as to ever reach where he is at.

 

[Derideo_Te]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

He said that he would be skeptical if that were to occur!

 

[Bonzi]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

No, he is just at a very different level than you are when it comes to faith. And you should be so lucky as to ever reach where he is at.

He doesn't believe in Satan or Hell so I already disagree with his doctrine. But we know we differ in that way.
Hopefully YOU will be lucky and believe as he does one day.

 

[BluePhantom]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

That is true, but I have seen it way too many times. When I was in my teens I was already engaged in a search for "the truth"...my "quest" started when I was in 6th grade and got booted out of Catholic school for arguing with the nuns and corrupting the minds of my peers. After that I engaged in a lifetime of study and believe me...I studied EVERYTHING. You name it, I gave it a shot. So for a time I was attending a real holy roller evangelical church and people would get saved and they would go on this huge emotional high with God. But the problem was, the emotional high went away and then they started asking questions about what it was they had actually committed themselves to. More often than not, they didn't like what the pastor was telling them about how they had to live their life from then on.

So when you accept Jesus or God or Allah or whatever there is going to be that immediate spiritual connection, but people forget that they are making a commitment and defining themselves. When you define yourself as anything you are telling the world "this is what I believe". So when I was in the church what I saw time and time again was people riding that emotional high and feeling that connection to God, and they they started to realize that they had just defined themselves in a way that they hadn't previously considered. I saw far more people get saved and leave the church a few months later than get saved and stick around. And of course all the back-stabbing, gossiping, and trash talk about the people who didn't show up for church that week didn't help.

For me, if someone is going to convert to any faith or even define themselves in any particular way they should really understand what it is they are getting into. We talk about how people should not be baptized until they are old enough to understand and make that conscious choice. I agree with that. The same is frequently true for a conversion...they take the leap before they understand.

 

[Bonzi]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

He said that he would be skeptical if that were to occur!

As a knowledgeable Christian, I find it odd he has never heard of such a happening. I've heard about many.

 

[Bonzi]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

No, he is just at a very different level than you are when it comes to faith. And you should be so lucky as to ever reach where he is at.

Saved is Saved. You are lucky no matter what.

 

[Bonzi]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

I've taken Biblical study courses, although I don't have the supplemental historical knowledge and research that BP has (or any of you) has I'm sure.

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

That is true, but I have seen it way too many times. When I was in my teens I was already engaged in a search for "the truth"...my "quest" started when I was in 6th grade and got booted out of Catholic school for arguing with the nuns and corrupting the minds of my peers. After that I engaged in a lifetime of study and believe me...I studied EVERYTHING. You name it, I gave it a shot. So for a time I was attending a real holy roller evangelical church and people would get saved and they would go on this huge emotional high with God. But the problem was, the emotional high went away and then they started asking questions about what it was they had actually committed themselves to. More often than not, they didn't like what the pastor was telling them about how they had to live their life from then on.

So when you accept Jesus or God or Allah or whatever there is going to be that immediate spiritual connection, but people forget that they are making a commitment and defining themselves. When you define yourself as anything you are telling the world "this is what I believe". So when I was in the church what I saw time and time again was people riding that emotional high and feeling that connection to God, and they they started to realize that they had just defined themselves in a way that they hadn't previously considered. I saw far more people get saved and leave the church a few months later than get saved and stick around. And of course all the back-stabbing, gossiping, and trash talk about the people who didn't show up for church that week didn't help.

For me, if someone is going to convert to any faith or even define themselves in any particular way they should really understand what it is they are getting into. We talk about how people should not be baptized until they are old enough to understand and make that conscious choice. I agree with that. The same is frequently true for a conversion...they take the leap before they understand.

We all need to grow in knowledge and faith for a closer walk with God.
I'm just talking about BECOMING a Christian.
It was originally stated that it has to be TAUGHT.