There is no conflict between religion and science. Never has been.

[BreezeWood]

Your problem is ...

you are your own audience - nothing could be any worse ... * just a helpful hint, and sure not a bit of your dreadful religion with every word you write.

- not in the least bit noticeable.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

all three desert religions claim there were tablets etched in the heavens with 10 commandments - that never existed

There begins the God Haters detour from reality

 

[Carl in Michigan]

it's definitely not the desert religions - they are fabrications of the worst kind

Making an "authorative" declaration doesn't make it so. Nobody recognizes YOUR "authority"

 

[ding]

you are your own audience - nothing could be any worse ... * just a helpful hint, and sure not a bit of your dreadful religion with every word you write.

- not in the least bit noticeable.

It only seems that way to you because you understand my religion.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Because you reject QM.

I do not reject QM. Please stop lying about me. I am a fucking R&D Chemist. OF COURSE I believe in QM.

Without observers everything exists in a probability state.

Not really. Quantum behavior is not common at the macro level.

Everything is made manifest by mind.

That doesn't mean anything.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Seriously?

The presence of matter and energy creates its space and time. What part of that don’t you understand?

That doesn't mean you've seen a "thought" existing outside a physical brain.

 

[ding]

Not really. Quantum behavior is not common at the macro level.

Without any observers to make the physical world manifest how would you ever know the universe didn’t exist in a state of probability?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Spoken like someone who has never made a serious objective assessment of the origin question. You don’t even know the right question to ask.

That's because "origin of the universe" questions, especially what came BEFORE the origin are, effectively, meaningless and likely insoluble.

As such I don't waste a lot of time trying to figure it out. You clearly have and you have wound up exactly in the same space as me...not knowing anything for sure, just having your personal guesses.

 

[ding]

That doesn't mean anything.

It means without mind to make the physical world manifest the physical world only exists in the abstract.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

By process of elimination. Matter and energy were eliminated as being an eternal cause of creating universes as matter and energy are not eternal (aka unchanging) and the presence of matter/energy creates its own space and time. So what is left is no thing. Consciousness without form (aka God) is no thing and the only option left.

And I am unaware of ANY consciousness that exists outside of a brain or network of neurons. In fact I don't believe any such thing can exist.

I am 100% sure you have never experienced a consciousness outside of a physical brain or network of neurons and as such you are making a faith-based claim.

That's great because you labeled your claim "God" which makes perfect sense. God is effectively whatever anyone's imagination wants it to be. And they all share equally the attendant proof of their existence.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It means without mind to make the physical world manifest the physical world only exists in the abstract.

Which is pure speculation and 100% philosophical musings.

 

[ding]

I don’t know. Neither do you or all the earths QM experts.

Do you at least know where they say all the matter and energy came from?

Because saying all the earth’s QM experts don’t know without knowing what they say is an idiotic position to take, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[ding]

That doesn't mean you've seen a "thought" existing outside a physical brain.

It means that when you eliminate the impossible what remains is the answer no matter how improbable it may seem.

 

[ding]

That's because "origin of the universe" questions, especially what came BEFORE the origin are, effectively, meaningless and likely insoluble.

As such I don't waste a lot of time trying to figure it out. You clearly have and you have wound up exactly in the same space as me...not knowing anything for sure, just having your personal guesses.

That might mean more if you actually understood what they claimed. But since you don’t know how they say the universe was created from nothing you can’t actually disagree with any of the details because you don’t know any of the details.

 

[ding]

And I am unaware of ANY consciousness that exists outside of a brain or network of neurons. In fact I don't believe any such thing can exist.

I am 100% sure you have never experienced a consciousness outside of a physical brain or network of neurons and as such you are making a faith-based claim.

That's great because you labeled your claim "God" which makes perfect sense. God is effectively whatever anyone's imagination wants it to be. And they all share equally the attendant proof of their existence.

It all comes down to intention. Which you have never tested. You don’t even know how you would test it. That’s how much of a bias you have.

 

[ding]

Which is pure speculation and 100% philosophical musings.

George Wald, Arthur Eddington, Von Weizsacker and Wolfgang Pauli would disagree with you.

George Wald said, "The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. It is primarily physicists who have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind." Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Von Weizsacker stated what he called his “Identity Hypothesis; that consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality. In 1952 Wolfgang Pauli said, "the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It all comes down to intention.

Why do you avoid answering the question I keep asking? WHO'S INTENTION?

Which you have never tested.

How does one "test" intention in the universe?

That’s how much of a bias you have.

Maybe I won't have that bias if you could answer two questions:

1. Who's intention?
2. How do I test "intention" in the universe? (And remember you said "test", not just accept. TEST)

 

[BreezeWood]

There begins the God Haters detour from reality

no, the desert religions have abandoned the prescribed religion of antiquity for their own self interests - same as death-agl who likewise have abandonded the heavens for their false commandments. to persecute and victimize the innocent.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Your problem is that you tend to see people as all good or all bad.

No I do not.

You’d be much happier if you did the same.

I'm not sure why you can NEVER be even marginally pleasant.

 

[BreezeWood]

Making an "authorative" declaration doesn't make it so. Nobody recognizes YOUR "authority"

- provide the tablets claimed by the desert religions to have been etched in the heavens with 10 commandments - then maybe someone will listen to you as something other than a false fabrication of your own personal interests ...

than the 1st century events of liberation theology, self determination - and your complicity in their crucifixion.