The Unenforceability of abortion bans

[Big Bend Texas]

It's a contradictory law.

If you can;t see that that's your problem

Nothing contradictory about it, born or not every baby is a human being.

 

[Blues Man]

Nothing contradictory about it, born or not every baby is a human being.

Of course it is.

Many states with that law will not charge a woman who gets an abortion with murder.

 

[JoeB131]

We don't recognize anyone up to the age of eighteen as having all the rights of an adult. Some rights, not until twenty-one.

That doesn't mean that a child is not a human being; it's just a recognition that some rights require a certain degree of judgement and maturity to properly exercise.

It certainly does not mean that it is acceptable to kill or abuse a child, even back to the sage of conception. A human being is a human being, at every stage of life and development.

So you do that by giving the fetus more rights than the woman it is inside? Even if it was put there by rape?

And again, why stop at abortion? Let's investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide. Don't take the doctor's word for it he was probably performing abortions before Roe was passed to start with.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

How many of those have ever been heard by the Supreme Court?

I haven't kept up.

Here's a list of challenges and their outcomes.

Constitutional Challenges to Unborn Victims (Fetal Homicide) Laws - National Right to Life

(All challenges were unsuccessful. All challenges were based at least in part on Roe v. Wade and/or denial of equal protection, unless otherwise noted.) Military Justice System Air Force Airman First Class Scott D. Boie was convicted by an Air Force court in Alaska in 2009 of multiple charges...

www.nrlc.org

If they wee unconstitutional those laws would have been null and voided or forced to be repealed.

 

[JoeB131]

You're almost 50 years behind.

Anyone performing illegal abortions risks losing their medial license and having their assets seized as well as criminal prosecution.

Works on the assumption that police will investigate, prosecutors will prosecute or juries will convict.

 

[Blues Man]

So you do that by giving the fetus more rights than the woman it is inside? Even if it was put there by rape?

And again, why stop at abortion? Let's investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide. Don't take the doctor's word for it he was probably performing abortions before Roe was passed to start with.

Better yet let's ban at home pregnancy tests because the state has to know if any woman is pregnant so they can be ready to lock her up for fetal abuse

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Of course it is.

Many states with that law will not charge a woman who gets an abortion with murder.

If she's performing it herself they just might.

We're plowing new ground on abortion law and it's going to take a few years to shake out.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Works on the assumption that police will investigate, prosecutors will prosecute or juries will convict.

You are presuming they will all refuse to follow their oaths and due their duty?

I don't think that would end well for them if that were the case.

 

[Blues Man]

I haven't kept up.

Here's a list of challenges and their outcomes.

Constitutional Challenges to Unborn Victims (Fetal Homicide) Laws - National Right to Life

(All challenges were unsuccessful. All challenges were based at least in part on Roe v. Wade and/or denial of equal protection, unless otherwise noted.) Military Justice System Air Force Airman First Class Scott D. Boie was convicted by an Air Force court in Alaska in 2009 of multiple charges...

www.nrlc.org

If they wee unconstitutional those laws would have been null and voided or forced to be repealed.

Those are state courts not federal

The Supreme Court hasn't ruled on any of those

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Better yet let's ban at home pregnancy tests because the state has to know if any woman is pregnant so they can be ready to lock her up for fetal abuse

You are out of your mind.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You don;t [sic] seem to be aware of the cossequnces [sic] of legally granting those same rights to the unborn.

The consequences will be the closing of a loophole that allows mothers legally to murder their own children.

It takes a murderous sociopath to see that as a bad thing.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Those are state courts not federal

The Supreme Court hasn't ruled on any of those

Irrelevant, the USSC doesn't have to rule on any case, they can let lower court rulings stand and by doing so endorse them.

 

[Blues Man]

You are out of your mind.

So you don;t care is a pregnant woman abuses her fetus by smoking or drinking or by engaging in activities that put the life of the fetus in jeopardy? How can you protect fetuses if you don;y know which woman are pregnant?

If you want to grant the rights of personhood at conception you should want this too.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

So you do that by giving the fetus more rights than the woman it is inside?

That's one of your persistent lies.

I am not arguing for a fetus to have any right that every other human being does not have, viz., the right not to be killed in cold blood simply because someone else finds his existence to be inconvenient. I certainly have never argued for denying pregnant women exactly that same right, nor would I ever argue such a thing.

 

[Blues Man]

Irrelevant, the USSC doesn't have to rule on any case, they can let lower court rulings stand and by doing so endorse them.

Those cases have to be run through the federal courts first that they haven't been in no way implies SCOTUS endorsement.

The Supreme court doesn't go looking to state laws to challenge they only take cases that have been run all the way through the courts

 

[Bob Blaylock]

And again, why stop at abortion? Let's investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide. Don't take the doctor's word for it he was probably performing abortions before Roe was passed to start with.

And another of your relentless lies that you keep repeating no matter how solidly it is refuted.

We don't investigate anyone for “potential” crimes unless there is some reasonable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed; and I am not now arguing that we should.

 

[Blues Man]

That's one of your persistent lies.

I am not arguing for a fetus to have any right that every other human being does not have, viz., the right not to be killed in cold blood simply because someone else finds his existence to be inconvenient. I certainly have never argued for denying pregnant women exactly that same right, nor would I ever argue such a thing.

So you don;t think a woman should be arrested for fetal abuse just like she would for child abuse? SHpould she be prevented from traveling to another state where abortion is legal?

If a pregnant woman smokes or takes a drink you wouldn't call the cops on her because she is abusing her fetus?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Better yet let's ban at home pregnancy tests because the state has to know if any woman is pregnant so they can be ready to lock her up for fetal abuse

You are out of your mind.

It's the reductio ad absurdum fallacy on steroids.

If we have laws against robbing convenience stores, then we'll have to have the police watching every random citizen to make sure that each citizen is not robbing convenience stores; each citizen will have to account for where all his money comes from to make sure he's not hiding the proceeds from robberies, and so on. Obviously, we cannot allow anyone to have the freedoms and rights that the Fourth through Sixth Amendments assert, otherwise there's a risk that someone might get away with robbing a convenience store.

For very good reason, our justice system is set up on a foundation of assuming that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, that we don't even begin investigating anyone for a possible crime without there being some substantial cause to believe that a crime has actually been committed and that the one being investigates is involved.

Blues Man and Incel Joe keep trying to argue that if the murder of unborn children is not allowed, then we have to treat every woman and every gynecologist as a suspected murderer.

 

[JoeBlow]

It's the reductio ad absurdum fallacy on steroids.

If we have laws against robbing convenience stores, then we'll have to have the police watching every random citizen to make sure that each citizen is not robbing convenience stores; each citizen will have to account for where all his money comes from to make sure he's not hiding the proceeds from robberies, and so on. Obviously, we cannot allow anyone to have the freedoms and rights that the Fourth through Sixth Amendments assert, otherwise there's a risk that someone might get away with robbing a convenience store.

For very good reason, our justice system is set up on a foundation of assuming that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, that we don't even begin investigating anyone for a possible crime without there being some substantial cause to believe that a crime has actually been committed and that the one being investigates is involved.

Blues Man and Incel Joe keep trying to argue that if the murder of unborn children is not allowed, then we have to treat every woman and every gynecologist as a suspected murderer.

If the state doesn't control pregnancy tests, how can they control women who would simply go out of state to have an abortion? How would anyone know? We need that control for this to work.

 

[JoeB131]

If she's performing it herself they just might.

We're plowing new ground on abortion law and it's going to take a few years to shake out.

But we're not. We plowed this ground 50 years ago, found these laws largely unworkable, which is why the Court threw them all out.

The Philippines have the kinds of laws you want... and they have 500K abortions a year.

Romania tried to impose the kind of laws you want, and abortions were commonplace in a COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP.

You are presuming they will all refuse to follow their oaths and due their duty?

I don't think that would end well for them if that were the case.

Would it though.

Let's take cops. The fact is, cops don't arrest everyone they see breaking a law. Prostitution is illegal in Illinois, but nearly every town out where I am at has a "Happy Ending" massage parlor. The cops don't bust them. It's not worth the trouble of filling out the paperwork.

Prosecutors are elected. It's one thing for a redneck legislator to pass an abortion law, but another for a blue city prosecutor to try to prosecute one when 70% of his constiuents opposed the law to start with.

Then you got juries... Man, if you want to talk about cases that cry out for "Jury Nullification", it would be these. As I said, I ever found myself on such a jury, I wouldn't care if the Doctor is on video tossing Globby the Fetus across the room to get a three pointer in the Medical waste container, I'm voting to acquit.