The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Foxfyre]

I would like for the discussion of gays in the military to be moved to that appropriate thread so that we could resume the topic of this thread.

Sorry I contributed to the derailing of this thread. It just irks me when people who act dishonorably claim they are as honorable as the next person.

I'm not criticizing as I have been known to get off topic on occasion.
Just stating I would like to stay on topic here.

 

[freedombecki]

I am Christian also so how does both of us being Christian make a nation founded on religion?
Or a lot of Founders being Christian?
When has Congress ever passed legislation based on Christianity?

Congress is modeled after the Presbyterian (Christian) system of representation. The only minister to sign the Declaration of Independence was a Presbyterian (Christian) minister.

Congress itself is the consequence of Christianity.

God bless the USA.

Anyone that believes that is beyond stupid.
Do you have any proof of your absurd claims?
Don't they teach history in the schools where you live?
Congress is modeled after the Romans and Greeks.
I am sure now you folks will claim the Greeks and Romans were also founded on Christian principles.

<<<<Gong!>>>> You're wrong.

If you are a Christian as you claim, doesn't your particular church have a library that discusses Christian influence in colonial times.

Pity you don't go there.

 

[Gadawg73]

America was founded on Christianity and was blessed richly, but now she continues to fall from her blessed state because she has let the wicked tear out the roots of her start.

Was stealing the land from the Indians and then slaughtering their women and children founded on Christianity?
Was that wicked? What recent wicked events compare with that?

we Indians sure racked up in the past few years in restitution.

Tell us your secret in being able to still be alive at 178 years of age.

 

[Gadawg73]

Congress is modeled after the Presbyterian (Christian) system of representation. The only minister to sign the Declaration of Independence was a Presbyterian (Christian) minister.

Congress itself is the consequence of Christianity.

God bless the USA.

Anyone that believes that is beyond stupid.
Do you have any proof of your absurd claims?
Don't they teach history in the schools where you live?
Congress is modeled after the Romans and Greeks.
I am sure now you folks will claim the Greeks and Romans were also founded on Christian principles.

<<<<Gong!>>>> You're wrong.

If you are a Christian as you claim, doesn't your particular church have a library that discusses Christian influence in colonial times.

Pity you don't go there.

I took religion in a private military school in the 60s.
No one disputes Christian influences in our society.
The society was majority Christian, the founders were primarily Christian and Christianity is a good thing.
That does not translate in OUR GOVERNMENT being founded on religion.
Your claim that John Witherspoon modeled the Congress after his church is absurd.
He never made that claim so how could that be true? Witherspoon was instrumental in formulating James Madison's strong position to NOT have religion intermingled with government. Madison was one ofmany students he had. Witherspoon instructed almost 100 future politicians and judges in our founded country and you claim his influences put religion into our government?
Well, where is God mentioned ANYWHERE in the laws that this nation was founded on and Witherspoon had a hand in writing?
NO WHERE. Try again.
You sir are the one that does not know your history. I learned it before you were born.

 

[AllieBaba]

It didn't take, gadawg. Your understanding of history is as limited as your understanding of everything else.

You *took* religion in the 60s? What's that mean? You took a class on religions or something in grammar school?

 

[bodecea]

Got Christian tenets we're founded on?

 

[Gadawg73]

It didn't take, gadawg. Your understanding of history is as limited as your understanding of everything else.

You *took* religion in the 60s? What's that mean? You took a class on religions or something in grammar school?

Sewanee Military Academy, Sewanne, TN, college prep. That would be a high school.
And guess what is also in Sewanee TN? Sewanee, The University of The South. Look it up Allie. One of the best private universities in America. My father taught there for 4 years. And guess what else is on the mountain there? An Episcopalian Theological Graduate School. Guess what they teach there Allie? And guess where many of my friends went and guess who taught religion at Sewanee Military Academy, one of the best private high school college prep schools in the land then. Because of the many alumni KIA in Nam in the 60s that were ROTC and then officers in Marines and Army and the anti-war sentiment in America they ended the military school in the early 70s. This is the school today:

St. Andrew's-Sewanee School: Home

 

[Gadawg73]

It didn't take, gadawg. Your understanding of history is as limited as your understanding of everything else.

You *took* religion in the 60s? What's that mean? You took a class on religions or something in grammar school?

Sewanee Military Academy, Sewanne, TN, college prep. That would be a high school.
And guess what is also in Sewanee TN? Sewanee, The University of The South. Look it up Allie. One of the best private universities in America. My father taught there for 4 years. And guess what else is on the mountain there? An Episcopalian Theological Graduate School. Guess what they teach there Allie? And guess where many of my friends went and guess who taught religion at Sewanee Military Academy, one of the best private high school college prep schools in the land then. Because of the many alumni KIA in Nam in the 60s that were ROTC and then officers in Marines and Army and the anti-war sentiment in America they ended the military school in the early 70s. This is the school today:

St. Andrew's-Sewanee School: Home

These were where the teachers that taught religion at SMA were from:

Welcome to The School of Theology at Sewanee! - Sewanee :: The University of the South

 

[Gadawg73]

And guess what religion 60% of the Founders were??

 

[bodecea]

I know we've been all over the place on this thread and I am as guilty as the next...but let's reset to the OP

"The U.S. is NOT founded upon Christianity."

If you disagree with that statement....what Christianity IS the U.S. founded upon?

 

[Foxfyre]

Again the country was not founded as a religious or Christian nation. It was founded by Christian people who were religious. This nation was born out of their understanding that natural/unalienable rights were God given and would not be ordered or directed or eliminated or repressed by any dictator, monarchy, Church power, feudal lord, totalitarian government, special interest, or person.

The purpose of the federal government was to secure and defend those unalienable rights and then allow the people to be free to govern themselves and form whatever society they wished to have.

The USA was based on a Christian concept. Not religion or Christianity.

 

[peach174]

Foxfyre has it right. Her statement is based on factual information.
We used to have this taught in our schools in U.S. History class, it needs to be put back in.

 

[bodecea]

Again the country was not founded as a religious or Christian nation. It was founded by Christian people who were religious. This nation was born out of their understanding that natural/unalienable rights were God given and would not be ordered or directed or eliminated or repressed by any dictator, monarchy, Church power, feudal lord, totalitarian government, special interest, or person.

The purpose of the federal government was to secure and defend those unalienable rights and then allow the people to be free to govern themselves and form whatever society they wished to have.

The USA was based on a Christian concept. Not religion or Christianity.

I agree with you...except I am puzzled by what I highlited....

What exactly is that Christian concept the USA is based on...the concept of natural/unalienable rights is not traced to Christianity.

Allie...you negged me for THIS post? :rolf: Yeah, I suppost it's that threatening to you.

 

[AllieBaba]

You keep asking the same questions over and over, and pretending they haven't been answered.

Nobody said the concept originated in Christianity. What has been said is that the US is founded upon Christian precepts; i.e., the founding fathers stated that is where they looked to develop the foundation of the country.

Arguing whether there's really a God or saying "whoa, Christianity isn't the ONLY value system that adheres to those principles" is completely irrelevant.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again the country was not founded as a religious or Christian nation. It was founded by Christian people who were religious. This nation was born out of their understanding that natural/unalienable rights were God given and would not be ordered or directed or eliminated or repressed by any dictator, monarchy, Church power, feudal lord, totalitarian government, special interest, or person.

The purpose of the federal government was to secure and defend those unalienable rights and then allow the people to be free to govern themselves and form whatever society they wished to have.

The USA was based on a Christian concept. Not religion or Christianity.

I agree with you...except I am puzzled by what I highlited....

What exactly is that Christian concept the USA is based on...the concept of natural/unalienable rights is not traced to Christianity.

It arose out of the Christian convictions of the Founders who gave God and, in many cases, the Christ as the source of the concept. They were not the first to think it up, but they were the first to make it a foundation for a new structure of government that had never been tried before in the history of the world.

For an excelent history I recommend Defending the Declaration by Gary T. Amos.

He did some excellent scholarly research to show how a concept of 'unalienable rights of men' were identified and developed by medieval Christian scholars over a period of centuries. Chapter 4 entitled "Unalienable Rights Endowed by the Creator' is especially good to illustrate why the concept has been embraced not only by Americans but by defenders of liberty everywhere.

 

[AllieBaba]

Bod refuses to acknowledge that the Declaration is a founding document.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Another example of the extreme ignorance of the anti-American, anti-Christian crowd. No amount of evidence will convince her otherwise; just like no amount of evidence will ever convince her that the country was founded upon Christian principle.

Despite the fact the founding fathers, the courts, and presidents since the birth of the nation have shouted it to the skies.

Despite the fact that every historian and US history expert confirms it.

If Thomas Jefferson and all the other FF were to pile into a hummer, come to her house, and tell her personally that they had founded the country on Chrsitian tenets, she would still deny it.

Because she doesn't care about truth, fact, or anything else. Her truth is relative and completely subjective. It means nothing to her.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bod refuses to acknowledge that the Declaration is a founding document.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Another example of the extreme ignorance of the anti-American, anti-Christian crowd. No amount of evidence will convince her otherwise; just like no amount of evidence will ever convince her that the country was founded upon Christian principle.

Despite the fact the founding fathers, the courts, and presidents since the birth of the nation have shouted it to the skies.

Despite the fact that every historian and US history expert confirms it.

If Thomas Jefferson and all the other FF were to pile into a hummer, come to her house, and tell her personally that they had founded the country on Chrsitian tenets, she would still deny it.

Because she doesn't care about truth, fact, or anything else. Her truth is relative and completely subjective. It means nothing to her.

Normally you and I are on the same page, but I gently disagree here Allie. There are those who so desperately want to believe they are right, that they close off any truth that interferes with that. It isn't an intentional thing. They just aren't yet strong enough to 'handle the truth' as Colonel Jessup might say. And some, including myself, hold opinions strongly enough that it requires a lot of evidence to shake our faith in our own convictions.

I don't believe Bodecea doesn't care about truth, fact, or anything else. She(?) is usually 180 degrees opposite my position on most sociopolitical issues, but I doubt is any more stubborn than I am, or you are for that matter , in giving up something believed to be true.

To me, however, being a grown up is being willing to at least look at evidence presented by others before dismissing it out of hand. And it is also not embracing every new talking point or ideological perspective that crops up on any given day.

 

[Gadawg73]

Fox, the "Christian concept" at the time this nation was founded was:
ALL nations had Christian religous influences in their government EXCEPT The United States of America per CONSTITUTION.
The first Amendment of The Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law RESPECTING an establishment of religion, or prohbiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peacefully to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Now at the time of the Founders guess why did they include AND MAKE IT LAW that our government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohbiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press and the right of people to peacefully assemble?
1. ALL of the European governments established CHRISTIANITY as the national religion in every country by LAW. That was the "Christian concept' of the day. Our nation and government was in no way founded on that.
2. Prohibiting free speech was what Christian churches did in Europe for centuries. That was the "Christian concept" of the day in Europe when this nation was founded.
3. Pronibiting freedom of the press was also the "Christian concept" norm when this nation was founded all through Europe as the church did not want opposition and freedom of the press.
4. Peacefull assembly was not allowed by the absolute monarchies in Europe as divine right was their calling as they ran their entire societies on the rule that God appointed them rulers over the masses. That was the "Christian concept" of the day.
Our nation was founded by Christian men.
Our nation was primarily Christian.
Christianity is a very good thing.
Religion does not found a nation that won a long fought revolution. LAWS is what we were founded on.
Those laws set us free from Christian influences and domination in every country that our Founders came from.

 

[Gadawg73]

A little more history for the uninformed here. You will find that MOST religous scholars, pastors and preachers that understand history and correct history on the Founders know that the Christians and pastors of the day knew that they were not founding a nation based on Christian principles. Christian principles are WHAT YOU TEACH YOUR KIDS, not the business of GOVERNMENT.

One of dozens that are from theological schools nationally.

Quartz Hill School of Theology

 

[bodecea]

Again the country was not founded as a religious or Christian nation. It was founded by Christian people who were religious. This nation was born out of their understanding that natural/unalienable rights were God given and would not be ordered or directed or eliminated or repressed by any dictator, monarchy, Church power, feudal lord, totalitarian government, special interest, or person.

The purpose of the federal government was to secure and defend those unalienable rights and then allow the people to be free to govern themselves and form whatever society they wished to have.

The USA was based on a Christian concept. Not religion or Christianity.

I agree with you...except I am puzzled by what I highlited....

What exactly is that Christian concept the USA is based on...the concept of natural/unalienable rights is not traced to Christianity.

It arose out of the Christian convictions of the Founders who gave God and, in many cases, the Christ as the source of the concept. They were not the first to think it up, but they were the first to make it a foundation for a new structure of government that had never been tried before in the history of the world.

For an excelent history I recommend Defending the Declaration by Gary T. Amos.

He did some excellent scholarly research to show how a concept of 'unalienable rights of men' were identified and developed by medieval Christian scholars over a period of centuries. Chapter 4 entitled "Unalienable Rights Endowed by the Creator' is especially good to illustrate why the concept has been embraced not only by Americans but by defenders of liberty everywhere.

I fail to see what is christian about the concept of unalienable rights...it's clear a concept that came out of the Enlightenment, that all people are born (whether they believe in a creator or not) with three basic human rights...the right to life, the right to liberty, and the right to property...and that social contracts are created among people to protect those rights. There's nothing enherently 'christian' about that concept.....unless there's something I'm missing here.