The Troops are concerned about gays serving openly.

[WorldWatcher]

Hey maggot, why is it that every time one of you sexual deviants log in you spout a bunch of BS about a military career that you never were privileged enough to enjoy. "A personnelman", give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word. The Army didn't have an MOS with that title, and I'll bet the Navy didn't either.

As has already been pointed out, the Navy does not have MOSs, they have NECs which stands for Navy Enlisted Classifications.

Details of which are contained in the NAVPERS 18068 series instructions. The rating was Personnelmen, an individual in that rating was referred to as a Personnelman.

MANUAL OF NAVY ENLISTED MANPOWER AND PERSONNEL CLASSIFICATIONS AND OCCUPATIONS STANDARD
NAVPERS 18068 (2004)

NAVY ENLISTED OCCUPATIONAL STANDARDS FOR PERSONNELMAN (PN)

SCOPE OF RATING

Personnelmen (PN) perform clerical and administration duties involved in maintaining personnel records, preparing reports and accomplishing accounting procedures; counsel enlisted personnel concerning Navy ratings, training, advancement, educational opportunities, and the rights, benefits and advantages of a Navy career; utilize and maintain current publications and directives pertaining to personnel administration and operate associated ADP equipment.

Navpers 18068f_manual of Navy Enlisted Manpower and Personnel Classifications and Occupations Standards_volume I_navy Enlisted Occupational Standards_january 2004​

>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

Navy doesn't have MOS, we've got ratings...Rating + paygrade = Rate. Personnelman or PN is indeed a rating, similar to Yeoman or YN and is in the Seaman catagory.

Not a correction, just an update.

What we knew as PN's were merged with the Disbursing Clerk (DC) rate into the Personnel Specialist (PS) rate in 2005.


>>>>

 

[SFC Ollie]

In truth, five years from now everyone will be wondering what the fuss was about

I hope you are right.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I had a conversation with my oldest son yesterday. He is career military. He just finished his fourth sensitivity training class about gays serving openly in the military. The troops can't comment on this issue or make disparaging remarks about the CinC. They've been advised that this is the way it will be; live with it.

In all of the classes they've been given one thing has been left out. The danger of HIV infection through direct contact with blood. Blood is the biggest bio-hazard on any accident scene. Civilians will say put on surgical gloves. A soldier would say that when you're wearing your buddies brains all over your face that wont do any good.

As a soldier I could count on my buddies doing everything in their power to bring me or my body back home. My buddies could count on the same thing from me. An openly gay soldier on the battlefield will lay where they fall. This is a very real degradation of military core values. Yet the troops feel that touching the openly gay soldiers blood would expose them to the very really threat of AIDS. That is a death sentence that will be resisted.

Morale is already being affected in a very negative way. The troops feel like they're being kicked in the stomach, and that they're being put into a life threatening situation. Once again people who've never served a second in uniform are making life threatening decisions that will carry dire consequences for the young men and women that this country sends into harms way. I think that congress, and the president need sensitivity training.

Hey stupid......speaking as someone who IS career military (I retired 8 years ago), I can tell you that your post is full of shit.

Why? Because........every 6 months, you get tested for HIV no matter what (at least I did until 2002). It doesn't matter if you're straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual. If you're on active duty, you will get tested every 6 months. Oh yeah.....if you ever pop positive on an HIV test, you are immediately sent to shore duty at one of a few hospitals that the Navy has designated for that purpose.

Oh yeah.........got news for you..........gays actually make better military types than straights do. Wanna know why? Because attention to detail (one of the military's favorite terms) is something they're good at. How do I know? Because for 20 years, I was a Personnelman, which meant that I had to do the worksheets every time advancement time came around for the whole command, and oh yeah........we have to factor in things like evaluations and personal (not unit) awards. Gays generally had a higher eval average and more awards. And........because I wasn't as bigoted as you or your child appear to be, all the people in each of my commands trusted me enough to tell me what was and wasn't true and going on.

Try again chumpsteak, both you and your spawn are bigoted assholes.

Hey maggot, why is it that every time one of you sexual deviants log in you spout a bunch of BS about a military career that you never were privileged enough to enjoy. "A personnelman", give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word. The Army didn't have an MOS with that title, and I'll bet the Navy didn't either.

As far as gays having a higher evaluation then a straight soldier I'll say BS again. Under DADT if you were getting evaluated as a gay service member you were being out processed with an undesirable discharge. Before DADT, if you were found out to be a sexual deviant you were out processed with an undesirable discharge. The results were the same. If you had really worked in personnel for 20 years you would have known that.

I have also noticed that none of you have been able to present any evidence on how having gays serve openly in the military would improve the combat readiness of any unit. That isn't surprising. Having gays in any unit will only diminish established high standards. I have to admit that seeing you all dance around the subject has been comical.

Since none of you could answer my last question maybe you'll have better luck with this question. How can the word gay be realistically related to sexual deviance? What is gay about being a sexual deviant?

I'm about 99.99% certain that ABS is a retired Sailor. Even though we don't agree on much, I'll give him credit for his service.

 

[SFC Ollie]

well lets see, when it comes ot christians and athiests, is there equal treatment? Christians want the ability to pray in school. Athiests want no prayer in school. under the law, there is no prayer in school. is that an equal ruling? but that's the law and that's what is currently accepted as the fair solution.

Christians can pray in school.

I'm not sure where you are from but Christians are certainly allowed to pray in school, as a matter of fact if a school were to bar Christians from praying (when not disrupting others or interfering with school business) they place their federal funding in jeopardy from being withdrawn.

Now there are some Christians that want to require that others pray in school, but that is a different issue.



>>>>

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

 

[bodecea]

Navy doesn't have MOS, we've got ratings...Rating + paygrade = Rate. Personnelman or PN is indeed a rating, similar to Yeoman or YN and is in the Seaman catagory.

Not a correction, just an update.

What we knew as PN's were merged with the Disbursing Clerk (DC) rate into the Personnel Specialist (PS) rate in 2005.


>>>>

No wonder...I retired in 1999.

 

[bodecea]

well lets see, when it comes ot christians and athiests, is there equal treatment? Christians want the ability to pray in school. Athiests want no prayer in school. under the law, there is no prayer in school. is that an equal ruling? but that's the law and that's what is currently accepted as the fair solution.

Christians can pray in school.

I'm not sure where you are from but Christians are certainly allowed to pray in school, as a matter of fact if a school were to bar Christians from praying (when not disrupting others or interfering with school business) they place their federal funding in jeopardy from being withdrawn.

Now there are some Christians that want to require that others pray in school, but that is a different issue.



>>>>

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

 

[yota5]

Hey stupid......speaking as someone who IS career military (I retired 8 years ago), I can tell you that your post is full of shit.

Why? Because........every 6 months, you get tested for HIV no matter what (at least I did until 2002). It doesn't matter if you're straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual. If you're on active duty, you will get tested every 6 months. Oh yeah.....if you ever pop positive on an HIV test, you are immediately sent to shore duty at one of a few hospitals that the Navy has designated for that purpose.

Oh yeah.........got news for you..........gays actually make better military types than straights do. Wanna know why? Because attention to detail (one of the military's favorite terms) is something they're good at. How do I know? Because for 20 years, I was a Personnelman, which meant that I had to do the worksheets every time advancement time came around for the whole command, and oh yeah........we have to factor in things like evaluations and personal (not unit) awards. Gays generally had a higher eval average and more awards. And........because I wasn't as bigoted as you or your child appear to be, all the people in each of my commands trusted me enough to tell me what was and wasn't true and going on.

Try again chumpsteak, both you and your spawn are bigoted assholes.

Hey maggot, why is it that every time one of you sexual deviants log in you spout a bunch of BS about a military career that you never were privileged enough to enjoy. "A personnelman", give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word. The Army didn't have an MOS with that title, and I'll bet the Navy didn't either.

Navy doesn't have MOS, we've got ratings...Rating + paygrade = Rate. Personnelman or PN is indeed a rating, similar to Yeoman or YN and is in the Seaman catagory.




Well, you didn't even know what a Personnelman was and you didn't even know that the Navy doesn't have MOS....so I'm not exactly concerned about what YOU consider BS.
Not true again. YOu would be discharged based on your evals. If you earned an Honorable Discharge, you got an honorable discharge even tho it was involuntary. You sure you were in the military? You're not too good on knowing what goes on.


Wrong again....it was an administrative discharge (very quick) but based on your evals. If you earned an honorable discharge, that's what you got.

I know this because I was an Admin Division officer before DADT and an Admin Dept Head and XO under DADT. You're not doing too well on knowing what really went on, are you?

I have also noticed that none of you have been able to present any evidence on how having gays serve openly in the military would improve the combat readiness of any unit. That isn't surprising. Having gays in any unit will only diminish established high standards. I have to admit that seeing you all dance around the subject has been comical.

You don't think allowing your soldiers to be honest will improve their morale and therefore their combat readiness?

You don't think KEEPING soldiers who might otherwise be kicked out for just being gay would improve combat readiness?

Really?

Since none of you could answer my last question maybe you'll have better luck with this question. How can the word gay be realistically related to sexual deviance? What is gay about being a sexual deviant?

I just did.

And still waiting for you to define a sexual deviant....why do you keep avoiding that question?

Let's do the personnel man thing first. "Personnel Specialist (PS) provide enlisted personnel with information and counseling related to Navy occupations, opportunities for general education and job training, requirements for promotion, and rights and benefits. PS maintain and audit pay and personnel records of military personnel, determine military pay and travel entitlements and deductions. They prepare the financial/accounting reports related to individual pay and travel transactions and operate associated accounting systems. They also assist enlisted people and their families with special problems or personal hardships." Personnel Specialist (PS)

The personnel man rating is BS. I would've accepted Personnel Specialist though. That is a Naval Pay rating. Everyone who has served knows what his job description is, and how to spell it.

Bod, you're gay. Therefore I don't have to tell you what sexual deviation is. You want the rest of the world to validate your existence by celebrating your homosexuality. I believe as a civilian you should enjoy the auspices of the United States. But, your rights of citizenship doesn't extend to service in the U.S. Military.

It is no ones right to serve. It is a privilege. That is why not every one who applies gets in. That is why many don't make it through basic, or advanced individual training. Not everyone who wishes to become an elite troop is successful. Many fail to become Marine Recon, Navy SEAL, Green Beret, or Army Ranger. Not all of us can be fighter pilots, research scientists, or Surgeons. These positions are earned by meeting or exceeding set standards. Taking high standards away from a military unit only diminishes the cohesiveness, and therefore the combat readiness of that unit. Nothing good can come of that.

The question still stands. How do gays serving openly in the military contribute to a units combat readiness?

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Hey maggot, why is it that every time one of you sexual deviants log in you spout a bunch of BS about a military career that you never were privileged enough to enjoy. "A personnelman", give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word. The Army didn't have an MOS with that title, and I'll bet the Navy didn't either.

Navy doesn't have MOS, we've got ratings...Rating + paygrade = Rate. Personnelman or PN is indeed a rating, similar to Yeoman or YN and is in the Seaman catagory.




Well, you didn't even know what a Personnelman was and you didn't even know that the Navy doesn't have MOS....so I'm not exactly concerned about what YOU consider BS.
Not true again. YOu would be discharged based on your evals. If you earned an Honorable Discharge, you got an honorable discharge even tho it was involuntary. You sure you were in the military? You're not too good on knowing what goes on.


Wrong again....it was an administrative discharge (very quick) but based on your evals. If you earned an honorable discharge, that's what you got.

I know this because I was an Admin Division officer before DADT and an Admin Dept Head and XO under DADT. You're not doing too well on knowing what really went on, are you?



You don't think allowing your soldiers to be honest will improve their morale and therefore their combat readiness?

You don't think KEEPING soldiers who might otherwise be kicked out for just being gay would improve combat readiness?

Really?

Since none of you could answer my last question maybe you'll have better luck with this question. How can the word gay be realistically related to sexual deviance? What is gay about being a sexual deviant?

I just did.

And still waiting for you to define a sexual deviant....why do you keep avoiding that question?

Let's do the personnel man thing first. "Personnel Specialist (PS) provide enlisted personnel with information and counseling related to Navy occupations, opportunities for general education and job training, requirements for promotion, and rights and benefits. PS maintain and audit pay and personnel records of military personnel, determine military pay and travel entitlements and deductions. They prepare the financial/accounting reports related to individual pay and travel transactions and operate associated accounting systems. They also assist enlisted people and their families with special problems or personal hardships." Personnel Specialist (PS)

The personnel man rating is BS. I would've accepted Personnel Specialist though. That is a Naval Pay rating. Everyone who has served knows what his job description is, and how to spell it.

Bod, you're gay. Therefore I don't have to tell you what sexual deviation is. You want the rest of the world to validate your existence by celebrating your homosexuality. I believe as a civilian you should enjoy the auspices of the United States. But, your rights of citizenship doesn't extend to service in the U.S. Military.

It is no ones right to serve. It is a privilege. That is why not every one who applies gets in. That is why many don't make it through basic, or advanced individual training. Not everyone who wishes to become an elite troop is successful. Many fail to become Marine Recon, Navy SEAL, Green Beret, or Army Ranger. Not all of us can be fighter pilots, research scientists, or Surgeons. These positions are earned by meeting or exceeding set standards. Taking high standards away from a military unit only diminishes the cohesiveness, and therefore the combat readiness of that unit. Nothing good can come of that.

The question still stands. How do gays serving openly in the military contribute to a units combat readiness?

How does it detract from it ?

 

[SFC Ollie]

Christians can pray in school.

I'm not sure where you are from but Christians are certainly allowed to pray in school, as a matter of fact if a school were to bar Christians from praying (when not disrupting others or interfering with school business) they place their federal funding in jeopardy from being withdrawn.

Now there are some Christians that want to require that others pray in school, but that is a different issue.



>>>>

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

Not to my understanding. Maybe we need a new thread. This isn't the place.... Besides, I can be wrong...

 

[sinister59]

Hey maggot, why is it that every time one of you sexual deviants log in you spout a bunch of BS about a military career that you never were privileged enough to enjoy. "A personnelman", give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word. The Army didn't have an MOS with that title, and I'll bet the Navy didn't either.

As has already been pointed out, the Navy does not have MOSs, they have NECs which stands for Navy Enlisted Classifications.

Details of which are contained in the NAVPERS 18068 series instructions. The rating was Personnelmen, an individual in that rating was referred to as a Personnelman.

MANUAL OF NAVY ENLISTED MANPOWER AND PERSONNEL CLASSIFICATIONS AND OCCUPATIONS STANDARD
NAVPERS 18068 (2004)

NAVY ENLISTED OCCUPATIONAL STANDARDS FOR PERSONNELMAN (PN)

SCOPE OF RATING

Personnelmen (PN) perform clerical and administration duties involved in maintaining personnel records, preparing reports and accomplishing accounting procedures; counsel enlisted personnel concerning Navy ratings, training, advancement, educational opportunities, and the rights, benefits and advantages of a Navy career; utilize and maintain current publications and directives pertaining to personnel administration and operate associated ADP equipment.

Navpers 18068f_manual of Navy Enlisted Manpower and Personnel Classifications and Occupations Standards_volume I_navy Enlisted Occupational Standards_january 2004​

>>>>

really the navy has not homosexuals ? they why again did the navy commission the Marine's ? was more then dancing going on .

 

[WorldWatcher]

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

Not to my understanding. Maybe we need a new thread. This isn't the place.... Besides, I can be wrong...

Government sponsored prayer is not allowed in schools. The statement was that Christians are not allowed to pray in school.

Some try to classify the lack of government directed prayer as barring all prayer in schools, that is not true.

Please check this out -->> Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

Navy doesn't have MOS, we've got ratings...Rating + paygrade = Rate. Personnelman or PN is indeed a rating, similar to Yeoman or YN and is in the Seaman catagory.

Not a correction, just an update.

What we knew as PN's were merged with the Disbursing Clerk (DC) rate into the Personnel Specialist (PS) rate in 2005.


>>>>

No wonder...I retired in 1999.

Figured something like that, unlike some people that spout off about Navy Ratings without even doing a basic search before making himself look foolish.


>>>>

 

[Spoonman]

Christians can pray in school.

I'm not sure where you are from but Christians are certainly allowed to pray in school, as a matter of fact if a school were to bar Christians from praying (when not disrupting others or interfering with school business) they place their federal funding in jeopardy from being withdrawn.

Now there are some Christians that want to require that others pray in school, but that is a different issue.



>>>>

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

ok here's the deal dude. Prayer is ok as long as you do it in silence. you can be a christian and be free to express your faith as long as you keep it to yourself. But don't do it out in the open or with a member of the faculty because you'll be shut down and and the teacher will be fired. Be honest, are you really OK with that?

 

[bodecea]

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

ok here's the deal dude. Prayer is ok as long as you do it in silence. you can be a christian and be free to express your faith as long as you keep it to yourself. But don't do it out in the open or with a member of the faculty because you'll be shut down and and the teacher will be fired. Be honest, are you really OK with that?

Actually, you can do it outloud all you want. The school cannot direct you in prayer tho. How is that so horrible?

 

[Gadawg73]

In truth, five years from now everyone will be wondering what the fuss was about

I hope you are right.

And I believe you Ollie. You have actual concerns but your love of the military which you were a vital part of for your entire career wants it to work. You have concerns and believe it will be difficult but deep down your love of country comes first.
I have always sensed that about you.

Ollie does not have the hatred towards gay folks like many here. Many would rather this fail and our military lose something just to prove they were right.

 

[sinister59]

Gays serving.

Dishonorable.

Pretty much cut and dry.

Case closed...


NEXT !!!!

Homosexuals have been allowed to serve honorably for the last 18 years under DADT.


>>>>

how many gays were thrown out in bush's rain ? translators and other important fields in service in Iraq ? 3,000 I think .

yet they military was excepting criminals instead .

 

[WorldWatcher]

Off topic but even a moment of silence has been done away with in most school districts. Prayer is not permitted at all.

That last is totally incorrect Ollie.

ok here's the deal dude. Prayer is ok as long as you do it in silence. you can be a christian and be free to express your faith as long as you keep it to yourself. But don't do it out in the open or with a member of the faculty because you'll be shut down and and the teacher will be fired. Be honest, are you really OK with that?

The DOE guidance I linked to earlier no where says it has to be in silence to be Constitutionally protected prayer - ya I'm fine with that.

No one is going to "shut down" a faculty member praying with a student when they are at a non-school event. Faculty not leading prayer with students at school or at school events - ya I'm fine with that.


Of course I'm of the opinion that proselytizing Religion is not a function public schools. Schools should be neutral and respect the rights of students as long as the exercising of those rights do not interfere with the function of the school or with the ability of others to receive an education. I could care less if a student wants to pray in school, however if they want to say a vocal prayer in the middle of Algebra class, that would be in issue. If a student wants to say grace before lunch - say grace. If the football team is supposed to muster at 18:00 for the big game and a group of the players wants to meet at 17:45 for a prayer - go for it.


>>>>

 

[yota5]

Every body has an opinion as to why gays should be allowed to serve in the military. No body seems to have a substantive argument to back up their opinion. Not one person has been able to tell me how gays serving openly in the military will contribute to a units combat readiness.

Wanting something doesn't give you the right to obtain it. You must earn it. Earning something seems to be a concept that is lost to our society. DADT doesn't give sexual deviants the right to serve. It only meant that your commander couldn't ask what your sexual orientation is. If your actions reveal sexual deviance you're gone. It is just that simple. Gays don't have the right to serve in the military. No one has that right. Only those of us who meet or exceed established standards are allowed to serve.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

"From fiscal years 1994 through 2009, the Department of Defense (DOD) separated over 13,000 active military servicemembers under its homosexual conduct policy."

For 2004-2009: "Using available DOD cost data, GAO calculated that it cost DOD about $193.3 million ($52,800 per separation) in constant fiscal year 2009 dollars to separate and replace the 3,664 servicemembers separated under the homosexual conduct policy."

For 1993-2003: "The total costs of DOD’s homosexual conduct policy cannot be estimated because DOD does not collect relevant cost data on inquiries and investigations, counseling and pastoral care, separation functions, and discharge reviews. DOD does collect data on recruitment and training costs for the force overall. Using these data, we estimated that it would have cost DOD about $95 million in constant fiscal year 2004 dollars from fiscal year 1994 through fiscal year 2003 to recruit replacements for enlisted servicemembers separated for homosexual conduct."​

13,000 people, approximately 288.3 million dollars. Countless man hours wasted, experienced personnel discharged, and replacement training required. For those that were wondering, there is your reason why allowing homosexuals to serve under the same terms is probably a good idea.

If you read the reports you will find those numbers are an UNDER estimation of costs because different services tracked or failed to report information that would have caused those numbers to be even higher.


Link: GAO 2011: MILITARY PERSONNEL Personnel and Cost Data Associated with Implementing DOD’s Homosexual Conduct Policy
Link: GAO 2005: MILITARY PERSONNEL Financial Costs and Loss of Critical Skills Due to DOD’s Homosexual Conduct Policy Cannot Be Completely Estimated

>>>>