The tremendous power of the social paradigms created by WWII - Part I - The citizen

[Phoenall]

The Jews have the same rights to Palestine as the Palestinians?

The Jewish Palestinians have the same rights to Palestine that the Arab Palestinians have. Rejecting that simple concept is discrimination based on ethnicity.

But the Zionist Jews were Europeans, not Palestinians.

NOT ALL only some, as the records show the majority were palestinians

 

[Phoenall]

The Jews have the same rights to Palestine as the Palestinians?

The Jewish Palestinians have the same rights to Palestine that the Arab Palestinians have. Rejecting that simple concept is discrimination based on ethnicity.

But the Zionist Jews were Europeans, not Palestinians.

Isn't it the basis of your religion as well

 

[Shusha]

But the Zionist Jews were Europeans, not Palestinians.

The population of Israel today is made up of different groups -- Jewish people who had been living there for generations; Jewish people who were newly immigrant from places like Europe, Jewish people who were ethnically cleansed from the surrounding Muslim ME States, and Jewish people who were rescued from places where new genocides were being committed against them.

Self-determination and self-government includes the right to control immigration.

 

[montelatici]

There were a handful of Arab Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion/migration, and they were also relative newcomers Sephardics from Spain and the Maghreb. Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

 

[Shusha]

Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

Protect them from what? Having to live next to Jews?! The HORROR!

 

[fanger]

Protect them from the illegal invasion of European Jews, who would go on to declare Palestine a new jewish homeland under the pseudonym "Israel" and deny the Native's rights

 

[fanger]

As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.



This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region’s problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.

Introduction
The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930’s and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic “land without people for a people without land” was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

 

[montelatici]

Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

Protect them from what? Having to live next to Jews?! The HORROR!

Protect them from being evicted from their land/or and subjugated by foreigners.

 

[Shusha]

Protect them from being evicted from their land/or and subjugated by foreigners.

Ah. Why aren't you also demanding that someone protect the Jewish people from being evicted from their land and subjugated by foreigners and having their culture erased?

 

[Shusha]

....the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

The Jewish people have a real grievance: their homeland for over four thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force. All the subsequent crimes -- on both sides -- inevitably follow from this original injustice.

 

[Hollie]

There were a handful of Arab Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion/migration, and they were also relative newcomers Sephardics from Spain and the Maghreb. Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

Your slogan about the native Moslems and xtians requires a lot of special whining on your part. The Roman-xtian invasion preceded Jewish migration to the area of Pal'istan, as did the Moslem gee-had.

As we know, majority land owners were absentee owners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. You're still befuddled about who the land owners were as opposed to itinerant Moslems and a very few xtians.

 

[montelatici]

There you go, making things up again. LOL

 

[Hollie]

There you go, making things up again. LOL

There you are, still. Befuddled about the facts. LOL

 

[montelatici]

I just present the facts you bark out fantasy Zionist propaganda.

 

[Hollie]

I just present the facts you bark out fantasy Zionist propaganda.

Zionist propaganda is a rationally based assessment of the Jewish people achieving self-determination while the Arabs-Moslems did not and can not?

Sorry to disappoint you but "Monty facts" are typically void of any relation to contingent reality.

"Country of Pal'istan". LOL

 

[montelatici]

Quit flirting. I don't like you. I just quote UN and other official documents. You just bark out propaganda.

 

[Phoenall]

There were a handful of Arab Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion/migration, and they were also relative newcomers Sephardics from Spain and the Maghreb. Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

According to the Ottomans you are a LIAR and they have been extinct since 1917


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291

"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm



It was the arab muslims that were the handful right up until 1948

 

[Phoenall]

Protect them from the illegal invasion of European Jews, who would go on to declare Palestine a new jewish homeland under the pseudonym "Israel" and deny the Native's rights

How was it illegal when the Ottomans and the LoN being soveriegn owners invited them to migrate, it was the arab muslims that are the illegals. And the natives were the Jews not the arab muslim invaders

 

[Phoenall]

Why wasn't immigration controlled when the native Muslims and Christians asked that they be protected, as was required by the Covenant of LON?

Protect them from what? Having to live next to Jews?! The HORROR!

Protect them from being evicted from their land/or and subjugated by foreigners.

They are the foreigners to begin with

 

[Phoenall]

Quit flirting. I don't like you. I just quote UN and other official documents. You just bark out propaganda.

Only those parts you can manipulate to meet with your PoV