The Stuff of scientism - SCIENCE vs God: The OBJECTION that is getting old...

[Hollie]

Ten of millions of angels, huh. How many can sit on a rock the head of a pin?

Oh, the irony.

Once again, Hollie, I note that you prattle on about "needless points" as the actual point of the centuries-old metaphore flies right over your head. Zoom By the way, speaking of pointless or useless meanderings, have you not yet gotten my point regarding your mindless belief in the possibility of an actual infinite as you stupidly fail to grasp the fact that both atheists and polytheistic pagans believe, essentially, the same thing about the substance of being and the origins of the cosmos? You were unwittingly mocking yourself earlier, unwittingly attributing an infinite regress of causation to the very ramifications of logic from classical theism that falsify the possibility of such a thing.

And that idiot orangecat gave you a thumbs up. The drooling 'tardedness of it all flew right over his head too. LOL!

Hollie, when you get
View attachment 440725
from me. I'm essentially saying that you're dancing on the head of a needle, making pointless baby talk. Zoom

Oh, the irony. Amidst that pontificating was a desperate attempt and failure to rebut a single point I made earlier. I’m afraid your cartoons won’t help you here.

So, tell us about these angels dancing on the heads of pins you believe exist.

 

[Ringtone]

Ten of millions of angels, huh. How many can sit on a rock the head of a pin?

Oh, the irony.

Once again, Hollie, I note that you prattle on about "needless points" as the actual point of the centuries-old metaphore flies right over your head. Zoom By the way, speaking of pointless or useless meanderings, have you not yet gotten my point regarding your mindless belief in the possibility of an actual infinite as you stupidly fail to grasp the fact that both atheists and polytheistic pagans believe, essentially, the same thing about the substance of being and the origins of the cosmos? You were unwittingly mocking yourself earlier, unwittingly attributing an infinite regress of causation to the very ramifications of logic from classical theism that falsify the possibility of such a thing.

And that idiot orangecat gave you a thumbs up. The drooling 'tardedness of it all flew right over his head too. LOL!

Hollie, when you get
View attachment 440725
from me. I'm essentially saying that you're dancing on the head of a needle, making pointless baby talk. Zoom

Oh, the irony. Amidst that pontificating was a desperate attempt and failure to rebut a single point I made earlier. I’m afraid your cartoons won’t help you here.

So, tell us about these angels dancing on the heads of pins you believe exist.

I'm not obligated to answer the banalities of your mindless baby talk.

Repent or perish! But, first, drop and give me 50. LOL!

 

[alang1216]

You ask me for evidence but offered none of your own? OK. Biblical scholar, Bart Ehrman's "tentative suggestion" is that only a few followers had visions, including Peter, Paul and Mary. They told others about those visions, convincing most of their close associates that Jesus was raised from the dead, but not all of them. Eventually, these stories were retold and embellished, leading to the story that all disciples had seen the risen Jesus.

I'm not moving on with you to the alleged contradictions, let alone to this new line of argumentation, until we get certain things straight between us regarding the number of people who witnessed the risen Christ. You're in error, regarding the number, the chronological order of these so-called visions and in your unwittingly inconsistent standard of justification.

Once again, you initially said that only a "few of Jesus' followers truly believed he was resurrected after death."

That's patently false and nonsensical.

Now you're saying "just a few witnessed the 'resurrection' and they spread the word."

That's factually false as well.

You're not thinking clearly. By "a few," you obviously don't mean God and the holy angels, who, by the way, according the Bible, number in at least the tens of millions. The biblical narrative does not say that earthly creatures witnessed the resurrection.

What did human eyewitnesses actually see and how many were there within the 40 days before Christ's ascension?

When Jesus was crucified, no one believed he would be resurrected. Today a billion Christians believe he was resurrected. Initially the number was a 'few' of his followers in Jerusalem. If you want to count angels you're talking to the wrong person, since I've never met an angel.

As for the number who saw the resurrected Jesus, I'll go with Ehrman and say 2 plus Paul.

 

[surada]

Paul being "the disciple who Jesus loved." Right? (in the biblical sense )

Paul was Saul of Tarsus. He had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.. Everybody had visions in the olden days .. even Muhammed.

 

[Ringtone]

When Jesus was crucified, no one believed he would be resurrected. Today a billion Christians believe he was resurrected. Initially the number was a 'few' of his followers in Jerusalem. If you want to count angels you're talking to the wrong person, since I've never met an angel.

You're still not following my point. You, not I, wrote that "just a few witnessed the 'resurrection' and they spread the word." Once again, You're not thinking clearly. By "a few," you obviously don't mean God and the holy angels, who, by the way, according to the Bible, number in at least the tens of millions. The biblical narrative does not say that earthly creatures witnessed the resurrection.

So who are these few you're going on about?

Hello!

You're the one unwittingly implying that the few are God and his holy angels, not me. LOL!

Again, I'm not going forward with you until you acknowledge your error so that I may know that we're on the same page as we progress. Things get lost in confused thoughts and expressions.

 

[Hollie]

So basically FAITH isn't enough. Doubling down on FAITH isn't enough either. No. To get through them Pearly Gates you're going to have to keep swallowing nonsense until you're fairly bursting your entire life while tonguing things like "HE in fact honestly has presented to us in HIS word what HE feels we can handle and hasn't lied to us".. then.. only then will you be judged worthy to get through..

Nah, I'll pass. In fact, I wish He would just punch me straight down to Hell this instant!.. Nope, nothin' again, darn it!..

You call it nonsense. You who believes the entire UNIVERSE came into being by itself, that man came about by pure accident, that life spontaneously erupted on its own, that the meaning of life is just in one's imagination...

I believe that you must accept that JESUS is the MESSIAH and died for your sins. That through faith in HIM alone you are saved. However, all that is found in the Bible. Yes, there are facts that one can examine. Other ancient documents, places on a map, artifacts that archaeologists have found; however, even with all that, if you will not accept CHRIST/MESSIAH you are lost and nothing else will make for a hill of beans.

You paint a picture of a bleak and hopeless existence.

"if you will not accept CHRIST/MESSIAH you are lost and nothing else will make for a hill of beans.''

Really? I'm lost and nothing I do or accomplish will make for a hill of beans unless I submit to Christianity? Beside being coercive, it is unreasonable. It suggests that doing unselfish acts for others means nothing. It suggests that living with honor and integrity means nothing, Such a worldview requires you to abdicate reason in the face of fear. Any gods who reward fear and submission over reason is not worthy of worship.

Ok, your testimony is that not accepting your gods means that our lives will not amount to a hill of beans. lets examine that philosophy and understand where it comes from. There is a single fatal problem with the NT. That is, that Jesus does not explain why his doctrines are good for mankind, he commands obedience for them and levies a system of rewards or punishments based on adherence and conformity. Jesus doesn't say, "Be good to one another because you are each precious," Jesus states, "Believe and obey and you will see heaven-- doubt and disobey and you will earn eternal damnation". The worth of Jesus' philosophy is emptied of meaning because he ultimately attempts to scare people into accepting his word. The character of Jesus was drawn very cleverly, which is actually why I find the Bible to be an interesting book. Despite the occasional overt threat, Jesus' character focuses on the implied threat: A) There is a heaven. B) There is a hell. C) Do as I command and you'll go to heaven. Then Jesus stops speaking. But we all know exactly what D would be: D) Don't do as I command and you'll go to hell.

The idea that "we die and all rot in the ground" somehow translates into "we shouldn't strive for excellence and happiness in life" is somewhat puzzling to me. I don't see the need to postulate an eternal afterlife or any gods in order to give life meaning. Life, in and of itself, **is** meaning. What if Atheism is a life-view that requires one to accept reality as it is, for what it is, and take responsibility for enjoying life and helping to make life better.

Why not? Because if we live in a world that we purposely make miserable, we each share in that misery. If we have children, and we love them, we want a better world so maybe they have less of a burden of pain to experience, and more pleasure and happiness.

I paint the reality of what will happen to lost and indifferent people when they expire. You must repent of your transgressions and come to a realization that JESUS paid your entire sin debt. There is a choice. Either one seeks forgiveness from GOD or one rejects GOD. GOD doesn't force anyone; however, the truth is that there will be consequences for the choice we select.

I think we need to understand that your reality has no basis in fact. I would also point out that when the result of not adhering to the proscription of the ideology is eternal damnation, that puts me in a position where I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. “Their” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive: conform or suffer eternal damnation. That is not the message of benevolent gods, that is the message of humans who have formulated an ideology intended to coerce behavior.

The precept of gods who are "infinitely merciful" is stripped of credibility when those gods are infinitely vindictive and cruel. “Infinite love and mercy” should be what the words mean. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establish amorality as morality.

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Paul being "the disciple who Jesus loved." Right? (in the biblical sense )

Paul was Saul of Tarsus. He had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.. Everybody had visions in the olden days .. even Muhammed.

I gather that's a "No."
lol

 

[Hollie]

Ten of millions of angels, huh. How many can sit on a rock the head of a pin?

Oh, the irony.

Once again, Hollie, I note that you prattle on about "needless points" as the actual point of the centuries-old metaphore flies right over your head. Zoom By the way, speaking of pointless or useless meanderings, have you not yet gotten my point regarding your mindless belief in the possibility of an actual infinite as you stupidly fail to grasp the fact that both atheists and polytheistic pagans believe, essentially, the same thing about the substance of being and the origins of the cosmos? You were unwittingly mocking yourself earlier, unwittingly attributing an infinite regress of causation to the very ramifications of logic from classical theism that falsify the possibility of such a thing.

And that idiot orangecat gave you a thumbs up. The drooling 'tardedness of it all flew right over his head too. LOL!

Hollie, when you get
View attachment 440725
from me. I'm essentially saying that you're dancing on the head of a needle, making pointless baby talk. Zoom

Oh, the irony. Amidst that pontificating was a desperate attempt and failure to rebut a single point I made earlier. I’m afraid your cartoons won’t help you here.

So, tell us about these angels dancing on the heads of pins you believe exist.

View attachment 440802

I'm not obligated to answer the banalities of your mindless baby talk.

Repent or perish! But, first, drop and give me 50. LOL!

I think your best commentary involves cutting and pasting cartoons. You find it less taxing and relieves you of the burden of stringing words into coherent sentences.

So... do millions of angels play harps while dancing on the head of a pin or is harp playing reserved for fat, naked babies in heaven?

 

[surada]

Paul being "the disciple who Jesus loved." Right? (in the biblical sense )

Paul was Saul of Tarsus. He had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.. Everybody had visions in the olden days .. even Muhammed.

I gather that's a "No."
lol

I think that was John.. I'm not sure. Which disciple is leaning against Jesus in the painting of the Last Supper?

John, the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign

...
After Peter, John is perhaps the best known of Jesus’s original Twelve Apostles. He and his brother, James, were with Peter at some of the most important moments of the Savior’s mortal ministry, and he has been traditionally associated with five different books in the New Testament. 1 His personal closeness to the Lord is suggested by John 13:23: “Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom ...

 

[Ringtone]

Paul being "the disciple who Jesus loved." Right? (in the biblical sense )

Paul was Saul of Tarsus. He had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.. Everybody had visions in the olden days .. even Muhammed.

I gather that's a "No."
lol

I think that was John.. I'm not sure. Which disciple is leaning against Jesus in the painting of the Last Supper?

John, the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign

...
After Peter, John is perhaps the best known of Jesus’s original Twelve Apostles. He and his brother, James, were with Peter at some of the most important moments of the Savior’s mortal ministry, and he has been traditionally associated with five different books in the New Testament. 1 His personal closeness to the Lord is suggested by John 13:23: “Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom ...

Correct.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

Indeed. Plus we have lived experience. It's not just some logical choice. I've been sick, sad, confused, repulsed, disgusted, etc.. when confronted (in real life) with many results of religious indoctrination. Otherwise seemingly healthy individuals who could have easily been my friends but for their stupid beliefs. Their childish demand to somehow live forever on some fucking puffy cloud or something. And you have to insist upon it all too or you can't join their big club and play in their fancy treehouse. Sorry. Price has always been too high for me.

 

[surada]

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

Indeed. Plus we have lived experience. It's not just some logical choice. I've been sick, sad, confused, repulsed, disgusted, etc.. when confronted (in real life) with many results of religious indoctrination. Otherwise seemingly healthy individuals who could have easily been my friends but for their stupid beliefs. Their childish demand to somehow live forever on some fucking puffy cloud or something. And you have to insist upon it all too or you can't join their big club and play in their fancy treehouse. Sorry. Price has always been too high for me.

Some Christians turn people off from faith.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

Indeed. Plus we have lived experience. It's not just some logical choice. I've been sick, sad, confused, repulsed, disgusted, etc.. when confronted (in real life) with many results of religious indoctrination. Otherwise seemingly healthy individuals who could have easily been my friends but for their stupid beliefs. Their childish demand to somehow live forever on some fucking puffy cloud or something. And you have to insist upon it all too or you can't join their big club and play in their fancy treehouse. Sorry. Price has always been too high for me.

Some Christians turn people off from faith.

Sure, given one were inclined to still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy to begin with. That's why they focus upon the young and naïve with baptism and so forth. What I find funny is that some of our best friends are quite religious, yet have made clear that my wife and I are their best friends because we come as such a relief compared to their usual. Their friends are very nice, but really just boring and childish when all is said and done. Nothing really fresh to offer ever. Automatons and followers for the most part, banging around rather pointlessly, tragically, through life...

 

[alang1216]

When Jesus was crucified, no one believed he would be resurrected. Today a billion Christians believe he was resurrected. Initially the number was a 'few' of his followers in Jerusalem. If you want to count angels you're talking to the wrong person, since I've never met an angel.

You're still not following my point. You, not I, wrote that "just a few witnessed the 'resurrection' and they spread the word." Once again, You're not thinking clearly. By "a few," you obviously don't mean God and the holy angels, who, by the way, according to the Bible, number in at least the tens of millions. The biblical narrative does not say that earthly creatures witnessed the resurrection.

So who are these few you're going on about?

Hello!

You're the one unwittingly implying that the few are God and his holy angels, not me. LOL!

Again, I'm not going forward with you until you acknowledge your error so that I may know that we're on the same page as we progress. Things get lost in confused thoughts and expressions.

Substitute 'resurrected Jesus' for 'resurrection'. Does that help your understanding? I'm not even sure I recall what we were saying before hairs started getting split.

 

[LittleNipper]

So basically FAITH isn't enough. Doubling down on FAITH isn't enough either. No. To get through them Pearly Gates you're going to have to keep swallowing nonsense until you're fairly bursting your entire life while tonguing things like "HE in fact honestly has presented to us in HIS word what HE feels we can handle and hasn't lied to us".. then.. only then will you be judged worthy to get through..

Nah, I'll pass. In fact, I wish He would just punch me straight down to Hell this instant!.. Nope, nothin' again, darn it!..

You call it nonsense. You who believes the entire UNIVERSE came into being by itself, that man came about by pure accident, that life spontaneously erupted on its own, that the meaning of life is just in one's imagination...

I believe that you must accept that JESUS is the MESSIAH and died for your sins. That through faith in HIM alone you are saved. However, all that is found in the Bible. Yes, there are facts that one can examine. Other ancient documents, places on a map, artifacts that archaeologists have found; however, even with all that, if you will not accept CHRIST/MESSIAH you are lost and nothing else will make for a hill of beans.

You paint a picture of a bleak and hopeless existence.

"if you will not accept CHRIST/MESSIAH you are lost and nothing else will make for a hill of beans.''

Really? I'm lost and nothing I do or accomplish will make for a hill of beans unless I submit to Christianity? Beside being coercive, it is unreasonable. It suggests that doing unselfish acts for others means nothing. It suggests that living with honor and integrity means nothing, Such a worldview requires you to abdicate reason in the face of fear. Any gods who reward fear and submission over reason is not worthy of worship.

Ok, your testimony is that not accepting your gods means that our lives will not amount to a hill of beans. lets examine that philosophy and understand where it comes from. There is a single fatal problem with the NT. That is, that Jesus does not explain why his doctrines are good for mankind, he commands obedience for them and levies a system of rewards or punishments based on adherence and conformity. Jesus doesn't say, "Be good to one another because you are each precious," Jesus states, "Believe and obey and you will see heaven-- doubt and disobey and you will earn eternal damnation". The worth of Jesus' philosophy is emptied of meaning because he ultimately attempts to scare people into accepting his word. The character of Jesus was drawn very cleverly, which is actually why I find the Bible to be an interesting book. Despite the occasional overt threat, Jesus' character focuses on the implied threat: A) There is a heaven. B) There is a hell. C) Do as I command and you'll go to heaven. Then Jesus stops speaking. But we all know exactly what D would be: D) Don't do as I command and you'll go to hell.

The idea that "we die and all rot in the ground" somehow translates into "we shouldn't strive for excellence and happiness in life" is somewhat puzzling to me. I don't see the need to postulate an eternal afterlife or any gods in order to give life meaning. Life, in and of itself, **is** meaning. What if Atheism is a life-view that requires one to accept reality as it is, for what it is, and take responsibility for enjoying life and helping to make life better.

Why not? Because if we live in a world that we purposely make miserable, we each share in that misery. If we have children, and we love them, we want a better world so maybe they have less of a burden of pain to experience, and more pleasure and happiness.

I paint the reality of what will happen to lost and indifferent people when they expire. You must repent of your transgressions and come to a realization that JESUS paid your entire sin debt. There is a choice. Either one seeks forgiveness from GOD or one rejects GOD. GOD doesn't force anyone; however, the truth is that there will be consequences for the choice we select.

I think we need to understand that your reality has no basis in fact. I would also point out that when the result of not adhering to the proscription of the ideology is eternal damnation, that puts me in a position where I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. “Their” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive: conform or suffer eternal damnation. That is not the message of benevolent gods, that is the message of humans who have formulated an ideology intended to coerce behavior.

The precept of gods who are "infinitely merciful" is stripped of credibility when those gods are infinitely vindictive and cruel. “Infinite love and mercy” should be what the words mean. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establish amorality as morality.

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

So, you never did anything that you were truly sorry for --- you never "sinned"? You have never experienced an event that you couldn't explain where you might have been seriously inured if not killed and yet the seeming "miraculous" occurred? You never noticed a difference between someone you knew who apparently was/is a Christian and those who ridicule that belief? You've never noticed how regularly a chain of events seem to follow a peculiar pattern where logically there should be none in a random world? So, you have a matter of fact explanation for everything? My----my!

 

[LittleNipper]

I have no reason to accept that there are really angry gods who would actually behave as you describe. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such gods who would condemn me for such a trivial issue. I do see the fear and hopelessness that terrifies and haunts so many religious people. If such gods exist, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment. I think living in such fear is a prescription for a maladjusted personality.

Indeed. Plus we have lived experience. It's not just some logical choice. I've been sick, sad, confused, repulsed, disgusted, etc.. when confronted (in real life) with many results of religious indoctrination. Otherwise seemingly healthy individuals who could have easily been my friends but for their stupid beliefs. Their childish demand to somehow live forever on some fucking puffy cloud or something. And you have to insist upon it all too or you can't join their big club and play in their fancy treehouse. Sorry. Price has always been too high for me.

Some Christians turn people off from faith.

Sure, given one were inclined to still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy to begin with. That's why they focus upon the young and naïve with baptism and so forth. What I find funny is that some of our best friends are quite religious, yet have made clear that my wife and I are their best friends because we come as such a relief compared to their usual. Their friends are very nice, but really just boring and childish when all is said and done. Nothing really fresh to offer ever. Automatons and followers for the most part, banging around rather pointlessly, tragically, through life...

Maybe they (your friends) like/love you very much and wish to engage in conversation that might just might motivate you to reevaluate your position, and or encourage them to reevaluate their own... Such wouldn't be the case if they excluded you. As for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, as long as there are loving parents, they (Santa and the Tooth Fairy) will continue to exist.
Now, GOD is most obviously different; however, there are unexplained occurrences and enough exceptions to the "rule" that should make anyone not living under a rock to ponder their eternal fate and fleeting happiness now...

 

[Ringtone]

Substitute 'resurrected Jesus' for 'resurrection'. Does that help your understanding? I'm not even sure I recall what we were saying before hairs started getting split.

Oh for crying out loud! My understanding was never muddled. Yours was. I'm simply trying to make sure we're on the same page. That's all. There's no obfuscation, let alone any splitting of hairs on my part. Witnessed the resurrection ≠ witnessed the resurrected Christ!

Now, from what source does Ehrman get this notion that only three people (human beings) witnessed the resurrected Christ?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Maybe they (your friends) like/love you very much and wish to engage in conversation that might just might motivate you to reevaluate your position, and or encourage them to reevaluate their own... Such wouldn't be the case if they excluded you.

Actually, we simply and very deliberately avoid the subject. Been acquainted longer, but good friends for more than thirty years. No interest lingers in going there. We all know doing so could only be hurtful.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
one might wonder if it were their claim as a messiah and resurrection the end result of their mission there would not have been throngs of "christian's" waiting in anticipation ... and fish galore.
.
oh,
.
One of the earliest depictions of the scene is an ivory plaque of c. 400 AD, already including the sleeping guards who were to become a standard element in later depictions ...
.
- look, a plague suddenly appears in the 4th-5th century - imagine that ... the sleeping guards. of course, makes sense now.

 

[LittleNipper]

Maybe they (your friends) like/love you very much and wish to engage in conversation that might just might motivate you to reevaluate your position, and or encourage them to reevaluate their own... Such wouldn't be the case if they excluded you.

Actually, we simply and very deliberately avoid the subject. Been acquainted longer, but good friends for more than thirty years. No interest lingers in going there. We all know doing so could only be hurtful.

Hurtful? How? If you don't wish to believe that there is a GOD, and Billions of people at the very least visualized that there must be something greater then themselves, that doesn't seem to be hurtful --- unless you may feel excluded and alone. That would be your own choice, as I'm sure that you must have been invited on occasion to "church". I've seen some people get very upset when discussing things that they claim not to care anything about. Perhaps they care more than they are willing to let on.