The Science Fraud

[westwall]

We are not surprised you didn't know the Gernan military used Gott mit uns on their belt buckles.

Do you walk aound with that piece of paper on your back that reads, ''kick me''?
[/Hilton.

I knew that long before you were born sweetie, I have a belt buckle from WWI that my grandfather brought home

The only person getting their ass kicked is you, sweetcheeks.

 

[Hollie]

No, dumbass the Wehrmacht IS the German military, comprising the heart, luftwaffe, and kriegsmarine.

But NOT the SS.

DURRRRRR

The Waffen-SS were a collection of combat troops later in the war. Part of the Gernan military.

Are you done being a dumbass?

 

[westwall]

The Waffen-SS were a collection of combat troops later in the war. Part of the Gernan military.

Are you done being a dumbass?

The SS started as the Stosstruppe Adolph Hitler in 1923 or there abouts. They then expanded into a company sized unit, then a battalion, then, by 1935 they were the Regiment Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler. They fought in Poland and France by which time they were a full on division.

Three more divisions were added very quickly including 5th SS Wiking which was, other than the HQ, made up of foreign nationals.

Eventually there were fully 9 SS divisions.

Would you like me to school you some more, because you don't know shit about the subject.

 

[Hollie]

The SS started as the Stosstruppe Adolph Hitler. They the expanded into a company sized unit, then a battalion, then, by 1935 they were the Regiment Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler. They fought in Poland and France by which time they were a full on division.

Three more divisions were added very quickly including 5th SS Wiking which was, other than the HQ, made up of foreign nationals.

Eventually there were fully 9 SS divisions.

Would youikw me to school you some more, because you don't know shit about the subject.

You trolled wiki. Very impressive.

Yes. Part of the German military.

 

[Mushroom]

If you take the time to educate yourself, you will find the Wehrmacht was a part of the German military.

I am aware of that, and have said so. And you said that exactly right. it is part of the German military, it is not the German military.

And the SS was never part of the German military. And you said it was the SS that used that motto, and they never did.

 

[westwall]

You trolled wiki. Very impressive.

Yes. Part of the German military.

No, dear, that was from memory. And, no, they were separate from the wehrmacht, in fact the Wehrmacht hated them. And tried to starve them of weapons in the beginning which is why it took so long for them to get equipped, and why the photos in the beginning of the war show them using WWI weapons, and what they could capture from the enemy.

Like I said, you don't know shit.

 

[Mushroom]

You trolled wiki. Very impressive.

Yes. Part of the German military.

Once again, you are wrong.

The SS was never part of the German military. Ever.

The leader of the military was the Chief of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht), commonly known as the Minister of War. And he was Wilhelm Keitel.

The SS all reported to the Reichsfuhrer SS, and he was Heinrich Himmler.

They were never part of the military, ever. The modern equivalent would be like claiming the US Secret Service is part of the US military.

I think the problem you are having is that you are actually dealing with to people who know history, and you do not. Westwall and I do not always agree, but when it comes to the general facts we agree more often than we do not. You keep trying to throw all of NSDAP era Germany into a single large pot, stirring it, and trying to blame everything that came out on religion and anybody that had a gun was military. And that is completely wrong.

And I am amazed that we are simply trying to correct you, and you are antagonistic to it and refuting clear and obvious facts. Which screams that you do not care at all about facts, you only want to push your agenda.

 

[westwall]

Once again, you are wrong.

The SS was never part of the German military. Ever.

The leader of the military was the Chief of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht), commonly known as the Minister of War. And he was Wilhelm Keitel.

The SS all reported to the Reichsfuhrer SS, and he was Heinrich Himmler.

They were never part of the military, ever. The modern equivalent would be like claiming the US Secret Service is part of the US military.

I think the problem you are having is that you are actually dealing with to people who know history, and you do not. Westwall and I do not always agree, but when it comes to the general facts we agree more often than we do not. You keep trying to throw all of NSDAP era Germany into a single large pot, stirring it, and trying to blame everything that came out on religion and anybody that had a gun was military. And that is completely wrong.

And I am amazed that we are simply trying to correct you, and you are antagonistic to it and refuting clear and obvious facts. Which screams that you do not care at all about facts, you only want to push your agenda.

Progressives ONLY care about their agenda.

That's why they make such good little fascists.

 

[ChemEngineer]

Hollie is nothing more than your garden variety intellectually dishonest militant atheist.

The Harridan delights in you responding to her, giving her the opportunity to blather on and on and on and on.

"Go from the presence of a foolish man."

"Answer not a fool according to his folly." - The Bible

"The lion does not turn around when a small dog barks." - Nigerian Proverb

"It takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than was required to produce it." - Brandolini's Theorem

 

[Hollie]

The Harridan delights in you responding to her, giving her the opportunity to blather on and on and on and on.

"Go from the presence of a foolish man."

"Answer not a fool according to his folly." - The Bible

"The lion does not turn around when a small dog barks." - Nigerian Proverb

"It takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than was required to produce it." - Brandolini's Theorem

Those are all the same, tired ''quotes'' you dump into multiple threads.

 

[Hollie]

Once again, you are wrong.

The SS was never part of the German military. Ever.

The leader of the military was the Chief of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht), commonly known as the Minister of War. And he was Wilhelm Keitel.

The SS all reported to the Reichsfuhrer SS, and he was Heinrich Himmler.

They were never part of the military, ever. The modern equivalent would be like claiming the US Secret Service is part of the US military.

I think the problem you are having is that you are actually dealing with to people who know history, and you do not. Westwall and I do not always agree, but when it comes to the general facts we agree more often than we do not. You keep trying to throw all of NSDAP era Germany into a single large pot, stirring it, and trying to blame everything that came out on religion and anybody that had a gun was military. And that is completely wrong.

And I am amazed that we are simply trying to correct you, and you are antagonistic to it and refuting clear and obvious facts. Which screams that you do not care at all about facts, you only want to push your agenda.

Once again, you offer ''...because I say so'', arguments as though anyone should take them seriously.

Odd you make the false claim that I have been

trying to blame everything that came out on religion and anybody that had a gun was military

Yet, that was never a claim I made.

This is the thanks I get for trying to educate you regarding some history and the best you offer amounts to hysterical claims.

 

[Hollie]

The SS started as the Stosstruppe Adolph Hitler in 1923 or there abouts. They then expanded into a company sized unit, then a battalion, then, by 1935 they were the Regiment Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler. They fought in Poland and France by which time they were a full on division.

Three more divisions were added very quickly including 5th SS Wiking which was, other than the HQ, made up of foreign nationals.

Eventually there were fully 9 SS divisions.

Would you like me to school you some more, because you don't know shit about the subject.

Rather, just post the wiki link.

 

[Mushroom]

And tried to starve them of weapons in the beginning which is why it took so long for them to get equipped, and why the photos in the beginning of the war show them using WWI weapons, and what they could capture from the enemy.

And why so many once the war started most were raised from conquered territories.

When conscription started in 1935, the Army got the bulk of those eligible to be drafted. And as you said earlier, at that point what would become the Waffen SS was only a few regiments. Where as the Germany Army had 25 Divisions (for those that do not know, a division is made up of 2 or more Regiments). And during the war, the German Army grew to over 400 numbered divisions. In comparison, the Waffen SS only had 38 numbered divisions.

And to show how insane the competition for "Field Divisions" in WWII Germany was, the Luftwaffe also had 22 Infantry Divisions. Now the first 7 made a kind of sense, as they were Fallschirmjager Divisions (paratroops), but they were rarely used as such. The 8th, 9th, and 10th Divisions were Fallschirmjager in name only, and after that Goring just gave up and they were all trained and equipped as regular infantry. Probably the only military in the world that had 22 Infantry Divisions commanded by the Air Force.

And unlike the Army, the Waffen SS units were heavy in Panzer Divisions. That is actually where most "Germans" that were in those organizations served. Most of the "Waffen SS Infantry" divisions were composed of foreigners. As they were in occupied territories they were not eligible for conscription, so made a huge pool that the SS could recruit from that were not subject to turf wars with the military for conscripts. When one looks at the infantry divisions of the Waffen SS, you even see where they were recruited from.

The 11th Panzergrenadier Division Nordland were primarily recruited from Denmark.
The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division Galizien were recruited from Ukraine.
The 15th Waffen Grenadier Division Latvian was obviously recruited from Latvia.
One of the most famous was the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division Charlemagne, who were recruited in France.

In a strange quirk of history, all of those who served in the SS Charlemagne Division were stripped of their French citizenship after the war. However, many realized that there was a loophole. In that while the French Foreign Legion did not accept those of French citizenship, as stateless citizens they could then join and serve in the Foreign Legion. And after three years of service they would become French citizens again. Once the French realized this they quickly closed the loophole, but not before thousands joined. And many later met their end at Dien Bien Phu.

But yes, the German Army and the Waffen SS never did like each other (the Army actually had much better relations with the Luftwaffe Field Army than the Waffen SS). And that was for many reasons, including the fact that many of the leaders were not real military men, but picked for party loyalty. Their first leader was a WWI Sergeant, who essentially got the position because he was Hitler's bodyguard and driver. Another was Eva Braun's brother-in-law, who had been kicked out of the police academy for cheating and once again only got the position for his relationship to Hitler.

And Himmler also had no military background. In training as a cadet, the war ended in 1918 while he was still in training and he was dismissed along with all the others in his class. He was of all things an agriculture student and was slated for a career in agriculture, but his anti-Semitic zeal and fanaticism for the party led him to the top of the SS and the second or third in line for control of all of Germany.

The German military itself saw itself as an aristocratic organization, a true professional military and the descendent of the Prussian military. They saw the Waffen SS as little more than street thugs. Good in a fight if you wanted to throw numbers away to break through. But otherwise of no use at all in an actual war.

 

[Mushroom]

Once again, you offer ''...because I say so'', arguments as though anyone should take them seriously.

Oh wow, really?

This is easily resolved then. I have given a lot of facts, including things like actual dates, chains of command, lineage, etc.

Prove me wrong.

Give us some actual facts to show I am incorrect.

Hell, in the very first one where you claimed the SS had "Gott mitt uns" on their belt buckles, I actually proved you wrong by showing actual SS belt buckles, along with those of the Army from WWI and WWII both. That was not "because I say so", I was using visual proof that you were completely wrong.

"Because I say so" indeed. Here is the thing, I actually welcome others to challenge me. I invite people to actually take the time to question what I say, and to then do the research to show that I am incorrect. Just as I am doing here with you. You say I am wrong, then fine. Prove it.

But first, a slight warning. I am not political at all, and my primary focus here is actually history and military. You will never find me in the "political" areas of this board, unless somebody calls me in as a "subject matter expert". And with well over 4 decades in personal and professional education in this area, I wish you a lot of luck in doing so. And I readily admit, my areas of specialty in WWII is the Pacific and not European theater, I have studied all aspects of WWII and before.

So please, go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[Hollie]

Oh wow, really?

This is easily resolved then. I have given a lot of facts, including things like actual dates, chains of command, lineage, etc.

Prove me wrong.

Give us some actual facts to show I am incorrect.

Hell, in the very first one where you claimed the SS had "Gott mitt uns" on their belt buckles, I actually proved you wrong by showing actual SS belt buckles, along with those of the Army from WWI and WWII both. That was not "because I say so", I was using visual proof that you were completely wrong.

"Because I say so" indeed. Here is the thing, I actually welcome others to challenge me. I invite people to actually take the time to question what I say, and to then do the research to show that I am incorrect. Just as I am doing here with you. You say I am wrong, then fine. Prove it.

But first, a slight warning. I am not political at all, and my primary focus here is actually history and military. You will never find me in the "political" areas of this board, unless somebody calls me in as a "subject matter expert". And with well over 4 decades in personal and professional education in this area, I wish you a lot of luck in doing so. And I readily admit, my areas of specialty in WWII is the Pacific and not European theater, I have studied all aspects of WWII and before.

So please, go ahead and prove me wrong.

I cant seem to find a lot of facts in your insistence that you know you're an expert because you claim you know you're an expert.

I've found that self-proclaimed experts often announce their expertise while rattling on with little more than a cursory knowledge of the subject they claim to have expert knowledge of.

Yeah, so go ahead and prove me wrong.

I did prove you wrong. Prove I didn't. See how that works?

 

[Mushroom]

The Waffen-SS were a collection of combat troops later in the war. Part of the Gernan military.

No, they were not. They were part of the SS.

Just because they had tanks and guns and "Divisions" did not mean they were part of the military. No more than the California Highway Patrol which has Divisions and his organized in Barracks is part of the military. This is why you keep failing, you for some reason have made up in your own mind that they were, and absolutely no amount of facts will ever convince you that you are wrong.

Here is the leader of the Waffen SS.

He did not answer to the military, and was never in the military. He answered to only Hitler himself, and had nothing to do with the German military.

Here is the leader of the German military.

A career soldier who had been in the military since 1901.

The very fact that you can not recognize who is military and who is not simply amazes me.

I bet you think this person is also in the military.

They got a uniform, that makes them military, right?

 

[Mushroom]

Yeah, so go ahead and prove me wrong.

I did prove you wrong. Prove I didn't. See how that works?

I have been, starting with your claim the SS had belt buckles that said "Gott mitt uns". And more recently with your silly claim that the SS was part of the military.

 

[Mushroom]

You trolled wiki. Very impressive.

Actually, I doubt either of us uses Wikipedia for much more than a quick reference. I know I personally eschew it for much more than that. Most of my knowledge is from decades of studying subjects like this.

For example, the biography of Paul Martelli. Good luck finding him in Wikipedia at all, he is not there. He was born in Lorraine, and joined the Charlemagne Division in France. He was one of many stripped of his French citizenship, then joined the Foreign Legion and fought in Indochina. I know about him because I read his biography, as far as I know he is mentioned nowhere in Wikipedia.

The problem is that you do not even know what actual facts are.

 

[Mushroom]

And I bet these are also pictures of "Military" in the world of Hollie.

 

[westwall]

Actually, I doubt either of us uses Wikipedia for much more than a quick reference. I know I personally eschew it for much more than that. Most of my knowledge is from decades of studying subjects like this.

For example, the biography of Paul Martelli. Good luck finding him in Wikipedia at all, he is not there. He was born in Lorraine, and joined the Charlemagne Division in France. He was one of many stripped of his French citizenship, then joined the Foreign Legion and fought in Indochina. I know about him because I read his biography, as far as I know he is mentioned nowhere in Wikipedia.

The problem is that you do not even know what actual facts are.

Nor does it care. It is so far out of its depth that it doesn't even understand how over matched they are.

I was friends with Rudolf Witzig, and I met Skorzeny in Spain. I was visiting my friend Hub Zemke when he was Air Atache to Franco. He was waxing poetic about his daring do "rescuing" Mussolini, everything was fine till I corrected him and stated, quite correctly, that it was a paratrooper operation, and he was merely a tag along who in point of fact almost killed the mission by overloading the Storch.

It was only thanks to the skill of the pilot that saved them.