The Science Fraud

[expat_panama]

It's pretty simple. We aren't a theocracy. Americans have choices.

--and I'll take that to mean u got no interest in a convo about what the constitution says. That's fine, maybe we'll hit upon some subject later we're both interested in or maybe u'll come back w/ me to the constitution.

 

[westwall]

I missed the part in your tedious cutting and pasting about the brutality and suffering that the religious institutions imposed on humanity with their wars of conquest and aggression.

The Catholic church never excommunicated Hitler.

The Catholic church grudgingly paid millions in compensation to the thousands of boys abused by the sex trafficking syndicate run by the church leadership but there was hardly any acknowledgement of the damage they caused.

As usual in your cutting and pasting, you try to connect a few sociopaths of the 20th Century socialist / Communist regimes with atheism and then try to connect atheism with the killing performed by those sociopaths. That theme appears in most of your cutting and pasting.

What you fail to understand is that the abuses by Mao, Lenin, etc were in furtherance of their political ideology and a function of their mental disorder. On the other hand, the wars of conquest and aggression by Christianity were in furtherance of spreading the religion. South American Indian babies, heathens, were baptized by the Conquistadors and then had their heads smashed in. Lovely!

The Crusades were about conquest and capture of territory.

Neither Lenin, Mao, Stalin, etc., used atheism as a rallying call.

You priests and their conquest of young boys, however....

I think you are ignoring the fact that secular socialist countries, guided by the science they chose to follow, has murdered more people in 100 years, than all the religions of the world combined have managed to murder over the course of 2000 years.

 

[ChemEngineer]

"True religion affords government its surest support." - George Washington
"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty
God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest
of their blessings, but also of their rights." ---George Washington
"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire cannot rise without His aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, 'except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it.'" --- Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787
\
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped...As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." ---Benjamin Franklin

"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." ---Daniel Webster

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."-Thomas Jefferson
"It (July 4th) ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more." ---John Adams
" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." - Samuel Adams
Alexander Hamilton's dying words, July 12, 1804: "I have tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty; through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." - John Quincy Adams


"Our Government rests upon religion. It is from that source that we derive our reverence for truth and justice, for equality and liberty, and for the rights of mankind. Unless the people believe in these principles, they cannot believe in our Government." --Calvin Coolidge

 

[Hollie]

I think you are ignoring the fact that secular socialist countries, guided by the science they chose to follow, has murdered more people in 100 years, than all the religions of the world combined have managed to murder over the course of 2000 years.

Religionism “wins” the death count.


Let's see how well the numbers balance down the list, shall we?:

There is no question about Pol Pot - Commie/Authoritarian, no doubt about it.<-- Not religious (and not disputed!)

The Monguls were not Christians or Moslems. If anything their beliefs were more like your Eskimo religion.<-- Religious!

Manchu were possibly believers in Confucianism, but they were just as ruthless as Christians or Moslems.<-- Religious!

Taiping Rebellion was either Buddhism or Confucianism related.<-- RELIGIOUS!

While the Annihilation of the American Indians, might be attributed to Christian, it was in reality a clash of a "Stone Age" culture with one that was moving into the "Industrial Age". <-- NON RELIGIOUS!

Joe Stalin, Mao, a real Communist atheist.<-- Not religious and NOT DISPUTED!

The Mideast Slave trade was run by Moslems, and of course there were ideological perspectives involved as well as a mercantile motive.<-- RELIGIOUS!

The Atlantic Slave could clearly be laid on the hands of Christians.<-- RELIGIOUS!

Timur Lenk was a Turkish Mongul whose conquests rivaled Ghengis Khan. He was not a Christian or Moslem - merely killed lots of them!<-- Not religious, perhaps!

The Kaiser, Archduke Ferdinand, King George, Tsar, and the French were all Christian (but the Turks were Islamic). Although WWII was largely about power and control, Nazism was deeply rooted in christianity <-- Religious!

The Russian Civil War was the Whites (Christians) against the Reds (Atheistic Communist Bolsheviks). Flip a coin, but the Bolsheviks started it! The Czar instituted pogroms against the Jews, <-- Religious!

The Thuggee were a Hindhu cult.<--- Religious!

Rome falls to the pagan Barbarians!<-- "Pagans" had religious beliefs. So did Rome. --RELIGIOUS!

The Thirty Year War involved Christian Europe, again more about power than religion!<--Religious!

The Congo Free State included imperialism and colonialism attributed to a number of European Christian States. It wasn't entirely about religion, however.<-- Religious!

The Chinese Civil War involved atheistic Marxist under Mao, and Buddhists or Confucians under the Nationalist banner. <-- BOTH!

The Crusades<-- Religious!

The moslem rape of the Indian Subcontinent (the Hindu Kush), stands as one of the greatest genocides in human history. Some 80 million people may have been killed <== RELIGIOUS

The moslem conquest of Europe shortly after the death of muhammud, is impossible to calculate. <-- RELIGIOUS!

Any fair tallying of the numbers will put your communist-Marxist ideology in the running for really "evil" category! HOWEVER Marxism, which defines a political ideology, was the prime motivator for Lenin, Stalin Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Jong. Atheism was not a motivating factor in their atrocities.

So tally the score. Religion wins.

What’s important to understand though is that it has always been the religions that have perpetrated the greatest horrors, mass murders and suffering. Look around you though, Its you wonderful religious folks who are suicide bombers, airline hijackers, mass murderers, etc., etc. Hey, it's theists who claim that they have morals of a divine nature to adhere to -- it's theism that claims a "better person" comes from a deep faith. The fact is, it's a sham.

 

[westwall]

Religionism “wins” the death count.


Let's see how well the numbers balance down the list, shall we?:

There is no question about Pol Pot - Commie/Authoritarian, no doubt about it.<-- Not religious (and not disputed!)

The Monguls were not Christians or Moslems. If anything their beliefs were more like your Eskimo religion.<-- Religious!

Manchu were possibly believers in Confucianism, but they were just as ruthless as Christians or Moslems.<-- Religious!

Taiping Rebellion was either Buddhism or Confucianism related.<-- RELIGIOUS!

While the Annihilation of the American Indians, might be attributed to Christian, it was in reality a clash of a "Stone Age" culture with one that was moving into the "Industrial Age". <-- NON RELIGIOUS!

Joe Stalin, Mao, a real Communist atheist.<-- Not religious and NOT DISPUTED!

The Mideast Slave trade was run by Moslems, and of course there were ideological perspectives involved as well as a mercantile motive.<-- RELIGIOUS!

The Atlantic Slave could clearly be laid on the hands of Christians.<-- RELIGIOUS!

Timur Lenk was a Turkish Mongul whose conquests rivaled Ghengis Khan. He was not a Christian or Moslem - merely killed lots of them!<-- Not religious, perhaps!

The Kaiser, Archduke Ferdinand, King George, Tsar, and the French were all Christian (but the Turks were Islamic). Although WWII was largely about power and control, Nazism was deeply rooted in christianity <-- Religious!

The Russian Civil War was the Whites (Christians) against the Reds (Atheistic Communist Bolsheviks). Flip a coin, but the Bolsheviks started it! The Czar instituted pogroms against the Jews, <-- Religious!

The Thuggee were a Hindhu cult.<--- Religious!

Rome falls to the pagan Barbarians!<-- "Pagans" had religious beliefs. So did Rome. --RELIGIOUS!

The Thirty Year War involved Christian Europe, again more about power than religion!<--Religious!

The Congo Free State included imperialism and colonialism attributed to a number of European Christian States. It wasn't entirely about religion, however.<-- Religious!

The Chinese Civil War involved atheistic Marxist under Mao, and Buddhists or Confucians under the Nationalist banner. <-- BOTH!

The Crusades<-- Religious!

The moslem rape of the Indian Subcontinent (the Hindu Kush), stands as one of the greatest genocides in human history. Some 80 million people may have been killed <== RELIGIOUS

The moslem conquest of Europe shortly after the death of muhammud, is impossible to calculate. <-- RELIGIOUS!

Any fair tallying of the numbers will put your communist-Marxist ideology in the running for really "evil" category! HOWEVER Marxism, which defines a political ideology, was the prime motivator for Lenin, Stalin Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Jong. Atheism was not a motivating factor in their atrocities.

So tally the score. Religion wins.

What’s important to understand though is that it has always been the religions that have perpetrated the greatest horrors, mass murders and suffering. Look around you though, Its you wonderful religious folks who are suicide bombers, airline hijackers, mass murderers, etc., etc. Hey, it's theists who claim that they have morals of a divine nature to adhere to -- it's theism that claims a "better person" comes from a deep faith. The fact is, it's a sham.

Not even close. Religious wars, crusades, and inquisition have murdered around 2 million. 3 million at the extreme end.

Stalin murdered 65 million on his own.

Mao murdered at least 80 million.

Secular, atheist countries brought industrialized murder to us.

Nothing can compete with that.

 

[Hollie]

View attachment 738038

View attachment 738039

"True religion affords government its surest support." - George Washington
"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty
God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest
of their blessings, but also of their rights." ---George Washington
"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire cannot rise without His aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, 'except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it.'" --- Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787
\
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped...As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." ---Benjamin Franklin

"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." ---Daniel Webster

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."-Thomas Jefferson
"It (July 4th) ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more." ---John Adams
" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." - Samuel Adams
Alexander Hamilton's dying words, July 12, 1804: "I have tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty; through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." - John Quincy Adams


"Our Government rests upon religion. It is from that source that we derive our reverence for truth and justice, for equality and liberty, and for the rights of mankind. Unless the people believe in these principles, they cannot believe in our Government." --Calvin Coolidge

Lordy, man. How is it you don't see the absurdity in your cut and paste "quotes"?

There's no "faith" in atheism. It's comical ypu cut and paste drivel about atheism leading to doubt about rational processes.

Science investigation is a function of rational processes.

As you know, the charlatans at creationer ministries adhere to a "statement of faith" that pre-determines all their positions. You can hide under a burqa of denial but it is a fact that the creationers are not objective and in fact they agree to a "statement of faith" that explicitly rejects objectivity.

Any articles you cut and paste from the ICR or your host of creationer ministries are presumed to be inherently biased toward your brand of religionism because that is announced by the creationer ministry.

Why would you expect me to be an accomplice to your biases?

 

[surada]

--and I'll take that to mean u got no interest in a convo about what the constitution says. That's fine, maybe we'll hit upon some subject later we're both interested in or maybe u'll come back w/ me to the constitution.

I'm not a constitutional scholar so there's that. We all have a broad spectrum of rights. People can live their faith unless they try to impose it on all of us. I certainly do. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[Hollie]

Not even close. Religious wars, crusades, and inquisition have murdered around 2 million. 3 million at the extreme end.

Stalin murdered 65 million on his own.

Mao murdered at least 80 million.

Secular, atheist countries brought industrialized murder to us.

Nothing can compete with that.

I gave you a list of wars and atrocities committed by religions. You can pretend they never happened but denial on your part is not my problem.

The fact remains. neither Stalin. Mao, Lenin. etc. went on Crusades of destruction under the banner of anything but a political ideology.

Christianity's Crusades and campaigns of conquest to convert the heathen were done under the banner of conquest and conversion.

 

[westwall]

Lordy, man. How is it you don't see the absurdity in your cut and paste "quotes"?

There's no "faith" in atheism. It's comical ypu cut and paste drivel about atheism leading to doubt about rational processes.

Science investigation is a function of rational processes.

As you know, the charlatans at creationer ministries adhere to a "statement of faith" that pre-determines all their positions. You can hide under a burqa of denial but it is a fact that the creationers are not objective and in fact they agree to a "statement of faith" that explicitly rejects objectivity.

Any articles you cut and paste from the ICR or your host of creationer ministries are presumed to be inherently biased toward your brand of religionism because that is announced by the creationer ministry.

Why would you expect me to be an accomplice to your biases?

Actually, yes,

I gave you a list of wars and atrocities committed by religions. You can pretend they never happened but denial on your part is not my problem.

The fact remains. neither Stalin. Mao, Lenin. etc. went on Crusades of destruction under the banner of anything but a political ideology.

Christianity's Crusades and campaigns of conquest to convert the heathen were done under the banner of conquest and conversion.

I fully accept them. The facts are there simply weren't that many people to kill back then.

You choose to ignore history because history bitchslaps you every time.

I am not religious. Not in the slightest. But I have studied history for longer than you have been alive.

Te records of Stalins purges are well known. Demographics proves beyond doubt that Mao murdered at least 80 million.

Facts irrefutably defeat you.

 

[Hollie]

Actually, yes,



I fully accept them. The facts are there simply weren't that many people to kill back then.

You choose to ignore history because history bitchslaps you every time.

I am not religious. Not in the slightest. But I have studied history for longer than you have been alive.

Te records of Stalins purges are well known. Demographics proves beyond doubt that Mao murdered at least 80 million.

Facts irrefutably defeat you.

You have posted no facts to irrefutably defeat anyone.

It's more a matter of you hoping to make the case that, "well, religions aren't quite as bad as Marxist ideologues in the human destruction department".

Not a real ringing endorsement.

What is the allowable death count we can assign to religions to make your "irrefutably defeats you" comment viable?

 

[westwall]

You have posted no facts to irrefutably defeat anyone.

It's more a matter of you hoping to make the case that, "well, religions aren't quite as bad as Marxist ideologues in the human destruction department".

Not a real ringing endorsement.

What is the allowable death count we can assign to religions to make your "irrefutably defeats you" comment viable?

History is filled with them.

Like I said, you choose to ignore well established facts because you are intellectually dishonest.

 

[Hollie]

History is filled with them.

Like I said, you choose to ignore well established facts because you are intellectually dishonest.

Speaking of intellectually dishonest, I gave you a list of some projected body counts tallied by religions vs. sociopathic purveyors of a political ideology. You presented no "well estaishd facts", just some numbers you pulled from some unknown source.

You want to make the case that religions have killed fewer people than Marxist / Communist regimes.

You're insisting that religions aren't quite as bad as sociopaths who were in power in the 20th century.

Super!

 

[westwall]

Speaking of intellectually dishonest, I gave you a list of some projected body counts tallied by religions vs. sociopathic purveyors of a political ideology. You presented no "well estaishd facts", just some numbers you pulled from some unknown source.

You want to make the case that religions have killed fewer people than Marxist / Communist regimes.

You're insisting that religions aren't quite as bad as sociopaths who were in power in the 20th century.

Super!

Look up Stalins purges and get back to us.

I don't need to post a link. You would ignore it anyway.

So do a .03 second Google search.

 

[Mushroom]

I think you are ignoring the fact that secular socialist countries, guided by the science they chose to follow, has murdered more people in 100 years, than all the religions of the world combined have managed to murder over the course of 2000 years.

Not to mention that the Catholic Church reserves excommunication for active members who break the rules of their faith.

He never attended services once he reached 18 and moved from home. And right after he rose to become the leader of Germany, he spoke often about religion, saying he was not a Catholic, but a "German Christian". And ultimately he wanted to create a new faith based on Lutheranism that would have a relationship like between England and the Anglican Church. And "unofficial National religion" that ultimately was bound together with the state.

It is not like the Catholic Church runs around excommunicating everybody that walks away from them. That is almost universally reserved for those who are still active in the faith, and breaking the tenants of it. Not those who walked away decades before and never looked back.

 

[Hollie]

Look up Stalins purges and get back to us.

I don't need to post a link. You would ignore it anyway.

So do a .03 second Google search.

Look up the conquest of South America by the Conquistadors. That one's a whole bunch of fun. South American Indian Infants baptized and then had their heads bashed in on the rocks.

 

[Mushroom]

Religionism “wins” the death count.


Let's see how well the numbers balance down the list, shall we?:

The Monguls were not Christians or Moslems. If anything their beliefs were more like your Eskimo religion.<-- Religious!

The Mideast Slave trade was run by Moslems, and of course there were ideological perspectives involved as well as a mercantile motive.<-- RELIGIOUS!

The Kaiser, Archduke Ferdinand, King George, Tsar, and the French were all Christian (but the Turks were Islamic). Although WWII was largely about power and control, Nazism was deeply rooted in christianity <-- Religious!

Rome falls to the pagan Barbarians!<-- "Pagans" had religious beliefs. So did Rome. --RELIGIOUS!

Sorry, almost your entire rant was sully, and it had me laughing. But here are some of the funniest parts.

Were the Mongols expanding for religious reasons to spread their faith? Or was it simply in their nature? I think evidence proves religion had nothing to do with it, therefore it is not religious. In fact, when they moved into a new area those Mongols that settled there tended to adopt the local religions, so that alone busts your claims. In fact, the Yuan Dynasty was well known for religious tolerances, and within 100 years the Emperors were no longer following the traditional Mongol religion, but had adopted Buddhism. So your claim it was religious is a failure.

The same with the fall of Rome. Even the Roman Empire was predominantly Pagan at that time. Yes, a few decades earlier Constantine the Great officially converted the Empire to Christianity. But the actual change took centuries. Especially as the Roman Empire and people themselves were very cosmopolitan and accepted all religions. Wandering Roman streets one would find shrines and temples to gods from all over the Mediterranean, and it was common to even see a "Traditional Roman" dropping coins at a shrine for an Egyptian god. And by that time, the "Barbarians" had been pushing against the borders for around 500 years. It had not a damned thing to do with religion at all, but human migration and pressure from other groups.

And the slave trade was religious? Most of those captured and sent to the Americas were Muslims. Sent by other Muslims. Sorry, not religious at all.

And no, "Nazism" was not "deeply rooted in Christianity". It was deeply rooted in Fascism, which was deeply rooted in Communism. So not religious at all. No more than the Japanese with their national faith of Shinto made their part in WWII religious.

Sorry, but almost every one of your claims was equally laughable. I suggest putting down the silly tracts you got those claims from, and studying real history.

 

[westwall]

Look up the conquest of South America by the Conquistadors. That one's a whole bunch of fun. South American Indian Infants baptized and then had their heads bashed in on the rocks.

Yeah, and the conquistadors didn't kill anywhere near as many as the natives did.

Who enslaved and killed entire civilizations.


You aren't helping your argument dear.

 

[westwall]

Sorry, almost your entire rant was sully, and it had me laughing. But here are some of the funniest parts.

Were the Mongols expanding for religious reasons to spread their faith? Or was it simply in their nature? I think evidence proves religion had nothing to do with it, therefore it is not religious. In fact, when they moved into a new area those Mongols that settled there tended to adopt the local religions, so that alone busts your claims. In fact, the Yuan Dynasty was well known for religious tolerances, and within 100 years the Emperors were no longer following the traditional Mongol religion, but had adopted Buddhism. So your claim it was religious is a failure.

The same with the fall of Rome. Even the Roman Empire was predominantly Pagan at that time. Yes, a few decades earlier Constantine the Great officially converted the Empire to Christianity. But the actual change took centuries. Especially as the Roman Empire and people themselves were very cosmopolitan and accepted all religions. Wandering Roman streets one would find shrines and temples to gods from all over the Mediterranean, and it was common to even see a "Traditional Roman" dropping coins at a shrine for an Egyptian god. And by that time, the "Barbarians" had been pushing against the borders for around 500 years. It had not a damned thing to do with religion at all, but human migration and pressure from other groups.

And the slave trade was religious? Most of those captured and sent to the Americas were Muslims. Sent by other Muslims. Sorry, not religious at all.

And no, "Nazism" was not "deeply rooted in Christianity". It was deeply rooted in Fascism, which was deeply rooted in Communism. So not religious at all. No more than the Japanese with their national faith of Shinto made their part in WWII religious.

Sorry, but almost every one of your claims was equally laughable. I suggest putting down the silly tracts you got those claims from, and studying real history.

Not only that the Mongols had universal religious freedom. Their Capitol city had every religion represented.

Hollie is ignorant of history.

That is for sure.

 

[expat_panama]

I'm not a constitutional scholar so there's that. We all have a broad spectrum of rights. People can live their faith unless they try to impose it on all of us. I certainly do. Sorry if I offended you.

A lot of folks would say that the atheists are attempting to impose their faith on others while many atheists themselves will complain of they themselves being unfairly set upon. While I started to include my belief here I thot it might be better to desist and wait for a clear and specific request for a statement of my belief.

 

[surada]

A lot of folks would say that the atheists are attempting to impose their faith on others while many atheists themselves will complain of they themselves being unfairly set upon. While I started to include my belief here I thot it might be better to desist and wait for a clear and specific request for a statement of my belief.

I have never experienced religious discrimination and I lived in Arabia for years and years.. Sunday school, church, etc. Everyone in America is competing for victim status these days.

Atheism isn't a religion. Why would they care if someone was rapture ready?