The rise of fascism, nationalism and populism today

[OldLady]

Some of you are using an economic model to poo poo the OP's concerns about the growing sentiment among some, including Trump supporters, of taking away SOME PEOPLE'S human rights. Economics -- such as socialism, communism -- has NOTHING to do with the nationalistic, populist movement of fascism. Of course Mussolini and Hitler had to take over their country's economies in order to build the huge war machines necessary to carry out their missions of domination. Saying we aren't heading down that road is silly. We are at least at the head of the path and discussing it. Many are helping in taking control of the media, as well, with their arguments that no media can be trusted.
Muslim Americans being registered? On some days, according to Trump, Muslims from terrorist-compromised countries being SUSPENDED from entering the US? We did put Japanese Americans in fucking prison camps, people--wake up! People who had not done one, single wrong thing. We stopped German Jews from entering this country at the same time, afraid they might be "spies." We know what happened to all of them.
It is those of you who think all the above is fine that worry me. Since you aren't Muslim or a refugee, you could care less. But it COULD be you and when you take the rights of one group of citizens, you open the door to taking the rights of others, including yours. Ask the ghosts of the millions of Germans and Italians killed by their leaders during the fascist years. They said No. They died.
We are flirting with it. Don't spout about communism or that it can't be because Hitler was a socialist. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Focus on the concerns.

 

[Iceweasel]

Tariffs and personally interfering with business decisions of companies IS protectionism.

By interfering you mean offering tax relief like every state and city does? Tariffs are appropriate if they put tariffs on us, tit for tat. That's how the big boys play.

But we aren't talking about tit for tat.

Rightwing has traditionally been largely government hands off free trade.

It isn't free trade if they put tariffs on us and we don't on them. Your vocabulary doesn't match dictionary terms. A market can only be "free" if the teams are on the same playing field. And I haven't seen the left do anything but make it worse.

 

[owebo]

Tariffs and personally interfering with business decisions of companies IS protectionism.

By interfering you mean offering tax relief like every state and city does? Tariffs are appropriate if they put tariffs on us, tit for tat. That's how the big boys play.

But we aren't talking about tit for tat.

Rightwing has traditionally been largely government hands off free trade.

It isn't free trade if they put tariffs on us and we don't on them. Your vocabulary doesn't match dictionary terms. A market can only be "free" if the teams are on the same playing field. And I haven't seen the left do anything but make it worse.

I agree....we are not even in the same ball park.....Trump will get us back to the same ball park so our industry can then play on the same ball field......

 

[Coyote]

That assumes then that all American citizens - by virtue of their race/ethnic background/religion are pre-judged guilty.

No, not at all.

By default it does. The government registers them. Freezes their assets and confiscates their property. Interns them.

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

 

[Coyote]

Tariffs and personally interfering with business decisions of companies IS protectionism.

By interfering you mean offering tax relief like every state and city does? Tariffs are appropriate if they put tariffs on us, tit for tat. That's how the big boys play.

But we aren't talking about tit for tat.

Rightwing has traditionally been largely government hands off free trade.

It isn't free trade if they put tariffs on us and we don't on them. Your vocabulary doesn't match dictionary terms. A market can only be "free" if the teams are on the same playing field. And I haven't seen the left do anything but make it worse.

Trump is not talking about putting tariffs on goods in response to their tariffs.

 

[Coyote]

Totalitarianism is Strictly Left.
Freedom is to the right.

Not according to most historians.

You need to take a history class. You also need to review the political spectrum graph. Don't let some slimy leftist professor try to tell you he is a champion of freedom, and that Libertarians, and Conservatives are trying to take it. Wake up dummy.
Below is the correct categorizations of the various political classifications.

I have. Have you?

Your charts are wrong btw, and I happen to hold a couple degrees. Fascism, Nazism, and Communism are within the same spectral neighborhood.
Totalitarianism-Collectivism-Socialism-Communism-Fascism-Nazism all are categorized as having the most social control, and governmental control over a populous. They are Government Centric and Leftist.

Representative Republics, Democracy, Libertarianism, Natural Law, Conservatism and even Anarchy seek to grant individuals the most freedom and Individuals control of those that govern them. They are Right.

So to recap for dummies.

Left means:
The Government Control The People

Right means:
The People Control The Government


It's really that simple.

So simple a caveman can understand it, but apparently too complicated for a liberal.

Apparently, not everyone agrees with your caveman logic.

 

[owebo]

No, not at all.

By default it does. The government registers them. Freezes their assets and confiscates their property. Interns them.

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

All of which are privledges....

 

[Coyote]

By default it does. The government registers them. Freezes their assets and confiscates their property. Interns them.

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

All of which are privledges....

Yet you agree with registering people on the basis of religion?

 

[owebo]

Totalitarianism is Strictly Left.
Freedom is to the right.

Not according to most historians.

You need to take a history class. You also need to review the political spectrum graph. Don't let some slimy leftist professor try to tell you he is a champion of freedom, and that Libertarians, and Conservatives are trying to take it. Wake up dummy.
Below is the correct categorizations of the various political classifications.

I have. Have you?

Your charts are wrong btw, and I happen to hold a couple degrees. Fascism, Nazism, and Communism are within the same spectral neighborhood.
Totalitarianism-Collectivism-Socialism-Communism-Fascism-Nazism all are categorized as having the most social control, and governmental control over a populous. They are Government Centric and Leftist.

Representative Republics, Democracy, Libertarianism, Natural Law, Conservatism and even Anarchy seek to grant individuals the most freedom and Individuals control of those that govern them. They are Right.

So to recap for dummies.

Left means:
The Government Control The People

Right means:
The People Control The Government


It's really that simple.

So simple a caveman can understand it, but apparently too complicated for a liberal.

Apparently, not everyone agrees with your caveman logic.

None of you uneducated do.....

 

[TheDude]

"Liberal" Fascism as defined by the palpable: We'd be a lot better off if the left used their brains instead of their asses. The folks are just too emotional.

 

[Iceweasel]

Some of you are using an economic model to poo poo the OP's concerns about the growing sentiment among some, including Trump supporters, of taking away SOME PEOPLE'S human rights. Economics -- such as socialism, communism -- has NOTHING to do with the nationalistic, populist movement of fascism. Of course Mussolini and Hitler had to take over their country's economies in order to build the huge war machines necessary to carry out their missions of domination. Saying we aren't heading down that road is silly. We are at least at the head of the path and discussing it. Many are helping in taking control of the media, as well, with their arguments that no media can be trusted.
Muslim Americans being registered? On some days, according to Trump, Muslims from terrorist-compromised countries being SUSPENDED from entering the US? We did put Japanese Americans in fucking prison camps, people--wake up! People who had not done one, single wrong thing. We stopped German Jews from entering this country at the same time, afraid they might be "spies." We know what happened to all of them.
It is those of you who think all the above is fine that worry me. Since you aren't Muslim or a refugee, you could care less. But it COULD be you and when you take the rights of one group of citizens, you open the door to taking the rights of others, including yours. Ask the ghosts of the millions of Germans and Italians killed by their leaders during the fascist years. They said No. They died.
We are flirting with it. Don't spout about communism or that it can't be because Hitler was a socialist. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Focus on the concerns.

The silly is all on you. Your primary purpose is to smear your political enemy, which is a tactic of totalitarian regimes, btw. Fascism is government control over private business and that's the LEFT, not right!

We did suspend German immigration during the war, there's no RIGHT to move here, where did you dig that up from?

 

[owebo]

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

All of which are privledges....

Yet you agree with registering people on the basis of religion?

Citizens? Nope....

 

[TNHarley]

Some of you are using an economic model to poo poo the OP's concerns about the growing sentiment among some, including Trump supporters, of taking away SOME PEOPLE'S human rights. Economics -- such as socialism, communism -- has NOTHING to do with the nationalistic, populist movement of fascism. Of course Mussolini and Hitler had to take over their country's economies in order to build the huge war machines necessary to carry out their missions of domination. Saying we aren't heading down that road is silly. We are at least at the head of the path and discussing it. Many are helping in taking control of the media, as well, with their arguments that no media can be trusted.
Muslim Americans being registered? On some days, according to Trump, Muslims from terrorist-compromised countries being SUSPENDED from entering the US? We did put Japanese Americans in fucking prison camps, people--wake up! People who had not done one, single wrong thing. We stopped German Jews from entering this country at the same time, afraid they might be "spies." We know what happened to all of them.
It is those of you who think all the above is fine that worry me. Since you aren't Muslim or a refugee, you could care less. But it COULD be you and when you take the rights of one group of citizens, you open the door to taking the rights of others, including yours. Ask the ghosts of the millions of Germans and Italians killed by their leaders during the fascist years. They said No. They died.
We are flirting with it. Don't spout about communism or that it can't be because Hitler was a socialist. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Focus on the concerns.

So you are bitching about taking the American rights of foreigners away from them? LMAO
Its pretty silly to compare halting immigration for national security to the atrocities of WW2.
Muslim registry will never happen. THIS IS AMERICA. They took over more than economies, they took over the government.
ATTENTION : It aint gonna happen. Not to mention we have hundreds of millions of gun owners. And luckily, we will continue to have gun owners.
You people really think hundreds of employees are gonna sign away their jobs and the future of the country because some guy said they anted him to? Give me a break.

 

[ZZ PUPPS]

Some of you are using an economic model to poo poo the OP's concerns about the growing sentiment among some, including Trump supporters, of taking away SOME PEOPLE'S human rights. Economics -- such as socialism, communism -- has NOTHING to do with the nationalistic, populist movement of fascism. Of course Mussolini and Hitler had to take over their country's economies in order to build the huge war machines necessary to carry out their missions of domination. Saying we aren't heading down that road is silly. We are at least at the head of the path and discussing it. Many are helping in taking control of the media, as well, with their arguments that no media can be trusted.
Muslim Americans being registered? On some days, according to Trump, Muslims from terrorist-compromised countries being SUSPENDED from entering the US? We did put Japanese Americans in fucking prison camps, people--wake up! People who had not done one, single wrong thing. We stopped German Jews from entering this country at the same time, afraid they might be "spies." We know what happened to all of them.
It is those of you who think all the above is fine that worry me. Since you aren't Muslim or a refugee, you could care less. But it COULD be you and when you take the rights of one group of citizens, you open the door to taking the rights of others, including yours. Ask the ghosts of the millions of Germans and Italians killed by their leaders during the fascist years. They said No. They died.
We are flirting with it. Don't spout about communism or that it can't be because Hitler was a socialist. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Focus on the concerns.

We are focusing on the concerns. They have been reviewed, considered and debated. They are without current fact...such as the boy who cried wolf. Do wolves exist? Of course, but mere existence of a wolf doesn't mean that when someone screams it that one is present.

 

[Iceweasel]

No, not at all.

By default it does. The government registers them. Freezes their assets and confiscates their property. Interns them.

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

Wrong. I can buy my neighbor's car and never register it, nothing illegal there. If I want to drive it, different story.

 

[TNHarley]

Its funny the leftists are the ones saying this dumb shit when they are the very ones who enjoy taking control over individualism and private property the most.

 

[TNHarley]

By default it does. The government registers them. Freezes their assets and confiscates their property. Interns them.

You mean like gun owners are registered?

Guns are tools. Not people. We register cars after all. And we register property.

Cars are registered for tax purposes. Guns aren't taxed...they are registered to KNOW who owns them.

Cars are only taxed states with personal property taxes, but not in others. They're registered in all states plus you need a license to drive.

Wrong. I can buy my neighbor's car and never register it, nothing illegal there. If I want to drive it, different story.

I never understood that argument. Like, how ignorant does one have to be to compare driving to gun ownership?

 

[The Original Tree]

Fascism is dead forever I guess.
In my opinion Donald Trump and the European right wing movements have nothing to do with Fascism.
People that vote for them are just sick and tired of the social and economic situation in their countries

People that vote for them are the same people that call for banning an entire religion, stripping civil rights and freedoms from citizens and creating registries and interning citizens. They're the people that want to deport illegal immigrants who were brought here as children, grew up here, and have done nothing wrong.

If there's nothing wrong with their being in the United States, why do you call them illegal? It's because they are not here legally and that's wrong.

Yes, they're here illegally through no fault of their own.

Coyote robbed a bank through no fault of his own. He didn't choose to break the law, nope, the law breaking chose him.

This is called the Liberal Paradox.

Or as some like to say..... "Lying To Yourself."

 

[Coyote]

Some of you are using an economic model to poo poo the OP's concerns about the growing sentiment among some, including Trump supporters, of taking away SOME PEOPLE'S human rights. Economics -- such as socialism, communism -- has NOTHING to do with the nationalistic, populist movement of fascism. Of course Mussolini and Hitler had to take over their country's economies in order to build the huge war machines necessary to carry out their missions of domination. Saying we aren't heading down that road is silly. We are at least at the head of the path and discussing it. Many are helping in taking control of the media, as well, with their arguments that no media can be trusted.
Muslim Americans being registered? On some days, according to Trump, Muslims from terrorist-compromised countries being SUSPENDED from entering the US? We did put Japanese Americans in fucking prison camps, people--wake up! People who had not done one, single wrong thing. We stopped German Jews from entering this country at the same time, afraid they might be "spies." We know what happened to all of them.
It is those of you who think all the above is fine that worry me. Since you aren't Muslim or a refugee, you could care less. But it COULD be you and when you take the rights of one group of citizens, you open the door to taking the rights of others, including yours. Ask the ghosts of the millions of Germans and Italians killed by their leaders during the fascist years. They said No. They died.
We are flirting with it. Don't spout about communism or that it can't be because Hitler was a socialist. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Focus on the concerns.

So you are bitching about taking the American rights of foreigners away from them? LMAO
Its pretty silly to compare halting immigration for national security to the atrocities of WW2.
Muslim registry will never happen. THIS IS AMERICA. They took over more than economies, they took over the government.
ATTENTION : It aint gonna happen. Not to mention we have hundreds of millions of gun owners. And luckily, we will continue to have gun owners.
You people really think hundreds of employees are gonna sign away their jobs and the future of the country because some guy said they anted him to? Give me a break.

"Muslim registry will never happen. THIS IS AMERICA."

Yes. And in America we registered Japanese, German and Italian Americans. We confiscated their property and froze their assets. We put them in internment camps. IN AMERICA.

 

[jasonnfree]

Fascism is loosely defined as a form of extreme “authoritarian nationalism” identified with Italy’s Mussolini. It’s principle attributes were an aggressive nationalism, a militarized society, a populist charismatic leader and prolific promises to cure every political and economic ill. It was particularly appealing to an economically depressed post-war society that had seen its way of life and culture turned upside down. Fascism promised action, not diplomacy, not nuance, even if it could not in reality deliver on those promises.

Mussolini was the “anti-establishment outsider” who became the voice of all those disillusioned with the government, the democratic process, and the economy. His rhetoric attracted the unemployed, the economically disenfranchised, veterans, and nationalists. In 1922, when Italy’s king called on Mussolini to form a government he had no idea what that entailed other than fulfilling a personal ambition for power.

In 1938, fascism took on distinctly racist/anti-semitic overtones when it began to collaborate with the Nazi’s. Italy passed it’s “Italian Racial Laws”. These laws codified what had previously been a campaign conducted in the media with the publication of the “Manifesto of Race” Manifesto of Race - Wikipedia This manifesto declared Italians to be of a superior race, and targeted other races as “inferior” - notably Jews and immigrants from Italy’s colonies. They were banned from marrying Italians, and from positions in banking, education, government and their property was confiscated.

Fascism, extreme nationalism and ideas of racial, ethnic, cultural or religious superiority are closely entertwined. Almost every country that has seen a rise in populist movements, such as fascism, has also seen a rise in anti-immigrant sentiment, legislation targeting specific racial, ethnic or religious groups and a rise in “justified” violence or special restrictions aimed at those groups.

World War 2 saw increased nationalistic fervor after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. American citizens of Japanese were first required to register. Then, their assets were frozen. Then they were ordered to “assembly points” and interned. Their property was confiscated. American citizens of Italian and German descent joined them. Is it so impossible for people to conceive of the fact that American citizens regardless of their ancestry are Americans first? Apparently it is.

We want to say “that was then, this is now”. That today is somehow different. But is it?

Look at the rise of populist rightwing movements across Europe and with the recent election of Donald Trump.

Geert Wilders, recently in the news again and with a very real chance of winning a government now with a coalition. What is the platform for his Party for Freedom?

They include the predictable anti-immigrant/Islam rhetoric, including completely banning an entire religion, closing all mosques and banning the Koran, the withdrawal of all residence permits granted to asylum seekers, and some rather obscurely defined planks such as:

Ban of overall Muslim expressions that are against the public order (defined how?)
Preventive incarceration of radical Muslims (determined how?).​

They also include populist promisies that likely can't be delivered upon:

The Netherlands will reclaim its independence. Therefore, we leave the EU.
Direct democracy: binding referendums, citizens have the power.
Deductible/excess in healthcare insurance is eliminated
Rents to be lowered
No more money for foreign aid, windmills, art, innovation, public broadcasters, etc.
Plenty extra funds for defense and police
Lower income taxes
50% reduction for vehicle ownership taxes​

Donald Trump campaigned on deporting immigrants and halting immigration, registries for Muslims, border security, tax cuts, bringing jobs back and increased defense. Supporters don’t rule out internment camps and banning entire religions. Mussolini attacked the leftwing media and attempted to close them down, a few managed to continue to operate under difficult conditions. We've heard Trump rail about the media and we've heard him propose legislation against them and creating his own media service.

I think these are truly dangerous times for civil liberties and freedoms throughout the western world.

And I think the political correctness used by the left is a form of fascism. We're not as bad as europe yet, where you can be jailed and censored for speaking your mind, but we're getting there.