The Problem with Socialism

[Norman]

Having a government is not necessarily socialism, but statism.

Also, anarcho capitalism is a subset of capitalism.

The world has essentially one economic system, it has mixed-economies. Use capitalism where it works, use socialism were it doesn't.

That's real life, the rest is pie in the sky bullshit.

Socialism doesn't work, period.

I'm completely done with your dogma. Anyone who rejects Adam Smith has no right to even comment on the price of a condom, let alone economic systems.

Where did Adam Smith ever endorse socialism?

He endorsed good government, you dumbfuck. It's required for capitalism only you don't think so because you don't understand capitalism.

You don't understand how to read... Anarcho-capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capitalism does not require a state.

 

[MikeK]

You must be kidding. We simply didn't notice how corrupt our government was because the Cold War was a bigger concern. The fact that the Truman administration was infested with communist spies should indicate the quality of government in that era.

Oh, those communist spies. They were under our beds and it's a wonder they didn't get us.

You're talking about the Rosenbergs, who successfully purloined our nuclear secrets for Russia -- as if that were not inevitable. The only surprising thing about it is it happened so soon. Did anyone really expect we, or any other entity, could keep that kind of technology a secret for long?

But as far as spies in general are concerned, you may rest assured that we had, and still have, at least as many and probably a lot more spies in Russia, and elsewhere than they and others had and still have peeking in our windows and reading our mail.

None of that, however, had any truly deleterious effect on the quality of American life throughout the decades between 1945 and 1980, when Ronald Reagan, The Man From General Electric, was foisted on us and commenced the incremental demise of the Middle Class and the Union Movement that gave rise to it.

Those were the most prosperous and productive years in our history. I lived through them and life was good (though not perfect). The Nation was strong, jobs were plentiful and the future looked bright. Then came "trickle-down" economics -- and the rest is what we're looking at today. The One Percent.

 

[bripat9643]

You must be kidding. We simply didn't notice how corrupt our government was because the Cold War was a bigger concern. The fact that the Truman administration was infested with communist spies should indicate the quality of government in that era.

Oh, those communist spies. They were under our beds and it's a wonder they didn't get us.

They weren't "under our beds." They were in sensitive positions in the government.

You're talking about the Rosenbergs, who successfully purloined our nuclear secrets for Russia -- as if that were not inevitable. The only surprising thing about it is it happened so soon. Did anyone really expect we, or any other entity, could keep that kind of technology a secret for long?

It wasn't just the Rosenbergs. There were hundreds of known communists installed in sensitive positions in our government - people like Owen Latimore, Laughlin Curry and others. We lost China to communism large because of the efforts of these two men. Communist spies were highly placed in our government.

But as far as spies in general are concerned, you may rest assured that we had, and still have, at least as many and probably a lot more spies in Russia, and elsewhere than they and others had and still have peeking in our windows and reading our mail.

That is dead wrong. The Soviet espionage operation was massive. Furthermore, they didn't have the tactical constraints operating in an open society that our agents had in the Soviet Union. A lot of our guys were caught and executed.

None of that, however, had any truly deleterious effect on the quality of American life throughout the decades between 1945 and 1980, when Ronald Reagan, The Man From General Electric, was foisted on us and commenced the incremental demise of the Middle Class and the Union Movement that gave rise to it.

Oh, right, because Russia getting the atom bomb had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. The Korean War had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. The Vietnam war had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. Spending hundreds of billions arming NATO had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life.

Those were the most prosperous and productive years in our history. I lived through them and life was good (though not perfect). The Nation was strong, jobs were plentiful and the future looked bright. Then came "trickle-down" economics -- and the rest is what we're looking at today. The One Percent.

A strong economy is no indication that our government isn't corrupt. The economy couldn't have been stronger when Ulysses S. Grant was wrapped up in the Credit Mobilier scandal. The economy was strong when Harding was wrapped up in the Teapot Dome scandal.

In conclusion, you failed to support your point.

 

[Centinel]

Apologies if I misunderstood your premise. But please be more specific about what property rights you are concerned with government violating.

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

 

[MikeK]

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

 

[Centinel]

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

Anything that interferes with a person using his body or property as he pleases (as long as he doesn't violate the anyone else's body or property).

For example:

Restrictions on contracts, such as minimum wage laws.

Restrictions on peaceful actions, such as hair braiding licenses.

Restrictions on what one may put in one's body, such as the failed attempt at alcohol prohibition.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Oh, right, because Russia getting the atom bomb had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. The Korean War had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. The Vietnam war had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life. Spending hundreds of billions arming NATO had no deleterious effect on the quality of American life.

[...]

Russia (and other major powers) getting the atomic bomb was inevitable and I'm not aware of any unexpectedly deleterious effect it's had on American life. Again, the only surprising thing about it was how soon it happened.

As for the Korean police action, we had no business being there. If South Korea was unable or unwilling to defend itself then let Korea fall into a state of perpetual civil war.

Same with Vietnam. We had absolutely no good cause to sacrifice the lives of 58,000 of our sons and brothers there.

And, yes. The money wasted on those, and other, military adventures did have a deleterious effect on all aspects of American life, except for the Military Industrial Complex -- which a socialist form of government will not tolerate.

 

[MikeK]

Restrictions on contracts, such as minimum wage laws.

Contracts are not property. They are contracts.

Restrictions on peaceful actions, such as hair braiding licenses.

Some activities should be licensed for the protection of consumers and other relevant interests.

Restrictions on what one may put in one's body, such as the failed attempt at alcohol prohibition.

On this issue we are in partial agreement. The use and misuse of recreational substances should not be the province of law-enforcement. It is a medical/social issue and should be treated as such, with government's involvement limited to non-authoritative administrative functions.

 

[Centinel]

Restrictions on contracts, such as minimum wage laws.

Contracts are not property. They are contracts.

Contracts are the conditional transfer of property from one person to another. Property rights include the right to transfer one's property.

Restrictions on peaceful actions, such as hair braiding licenses.

Some activities should be licensed for the protection of consumers and other relevant interests.

Licensing isn't necessary to achieve these ends.

Restrictions on what one may put in one's body, such as the failed attempt at alcohol prohibition.

On this issue we are in partial agreement. The use and misuse of recreational substances should not be the province of law-enforcement. It is a medical/social issue and should be treated as such, with government's involvement limited to non-authoritative administrative functions.

Well that's something.

 

[Norman]

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

Try this one: taxes.

 

[bripat9643]

Apologies if I misunderstood your premise. But please be more specific about what property rights you are concerned with government violating.

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Mike's confusion rests on the fact that leftists don't believe corporations or factory owners have any property rights. A factory isn't property in their eyes. It's a national resource.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

Wyoming welder faces $75,000 a day in EPA fines for building pond on his property | Fox News

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

Keystone Pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bripat9643]

I'm talking about property rights. The right to control one's property and not have it violated or taken.

Can you cite some examples of government unjustifiably violating or taking someone's property? So I'll know exactly what you're talking about.

Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Stephanie]

EXACTLY the wrong advice.

Screaming socialism is what works. Screaming Marxism at universities is exactly what has caused the issue, or do you really believe that there are more facts supporting socialism today, than in the past (the case looks worse and worse as each year goes by). There really is no intellectual battle, everyone with even an ounce of intellectual integrity knows socialism is a lie and a power grab.

There is no point in arguing against someone with facts when the only thing they understand is rhetoric. Most of the Marxist indoctrinated people physically can't even think logically, about anything.

Do you think the tactic of just screaming SOCIALISM! is working?

Do you see our society moving right?
.

The tactic used by the right has not been that of smear, but reason. It has failed. War is not won by good arguments, but guns.

Now, the left has used only smear and corruption, that has actually worked. It's almost ironic that the left understand human behavior better than the right when it comes to actual practice.

From my perspective - and yeah, I could definitely be off here - the Left has enjoyed so much social/cultural success for two reasons:

First, it has been consistent and methodical in its approach for literally decades, generations now. Example: Look at how the power of PC and Identity Politics slowly but steadily increased at the core of our society, until now a person's skin color or sexuality are forefront in who they are and how they are to be treated. That didn't happen overnight.

Second, the Right simply did not see this building until it was too late for them. Now they're trying to wrestle the society back all at one time and they don't know how to do it (neither would I). So the approach I'm talking about would be more patient and deliberative. I don't think they can make this change all at one time, it won't happen overnight.

We'll see, but right now the momentum certainly looks like it belongs to the Left.
.

Of course. The victories against bigotry and discrimination won by the left in this country couldn't possibly be organic in nature. They aren't to be looked at as being positive. They aren't founded on principles of fairness and the rule of law.

No.....they are the result of a devious plan to poison society in a tireless search for cultural decline! Those lefties are just better at staying on point than the righties. Yeah....that's it! All else.......is exactly equal. If the right can wake up and start trying harder to get their message out....they'll be able to "wrestle" the country back.

Weeeeeeeeee!

Most of the so-called rights the left has won since the civil rights movement are variations of the right to be a tick on the ass of society, or the right to make your neighbor do what he doesn't want to do. Those aren't positives. They are actually attacks on genuine rights. They arepart of a devious plan to poison society in a tireless search for cultural decline

It's a sad fact and if you need examples look at the Progressive/commie party calling themselves the Democrat party. calling for Free this and Free that. when they know NOTHING they ever propose is FREE and will come off the backs of the working taxpayers and citizens of this country. But do they care they are lying to the people?

 

[BuckToothMoron]

Socialism doesn't work, period.

It worked very well in the Scandinavian countries until they were invaded by Muslim refugees. Denmark, an exemplary socialist nation, was known as the "happiest country in the world" until recently.

Socialism doesn't work, period.

It worked very well in the Scandinavian countries until they were invaded by Muslim refugees. Denmark, an exemplary socialist nation, was known as the "happiest country in the world" until recently.

Denmark is about the same size in population as Minnestota. Socialism can be an effective system when certain conditions exist; conditions like similar heritage, culture, customs, religion, and physical location. People who share more are more willing to work for the greater good. It is a more communal environment. Socialism creates discontent when you have a broad range in background, lifestyles, religion, etc among the governed. They are less likely to feel a kindred spirit when the population is spread in geography as well.

Socialism has enjoyed relative success in smaller, homogeneous population, but has widely failed in large diverse groups.

 

[Norman]

Socialism doesn't work, period.

It worked very well in the Scandinavian countries until they were invaded by Muslim refugees. Denmark, an exemplary socialist nation, was known as the "happiest country in the world" until recently.

Socialism doesn't work, period.

It worked very well in the Scandinavian countries until they were invaded by Muslim refugees. Denmark, an exemplary socialist nation, was known as the "happiest country in the world" until recently.

Denmark is about the same size in population as Minnestota. Socialism can be an effective system when certain conditions exist; conditions like similar heritage, culture, customs, religion, and physical location. People who share more are more willing to work for the greater good. It is a more communal environment. Socialism creates discontent when you have a broad range in background, lifestyles, religion, etc among the governed. They are less likely to feel a kindred spirit when the population is spread in geography as well.

Socialism has enjoyed relative success in smaller, homogeneous population, but has widely failed in large diverse groups.

Plus, it's not that socialist, or successful anyway.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Hungry gang butchers horse after breaking into zoo 'due to economic crisis'

Socialism, it'll work next time, just trust us, we're working out a few kinks