Zone1 The Power of Tradition

[Cougarbear]

Sigh. Babies are not "sprinkled". That would be against Catholic doctrine.

are babies sprinkled when baptized catholic - Google Search

Looks like sprinkling or pouring to me. Now, there are some Catholics that emersion is used. Depends on the tradition of Catholics in particular locations around the world. Some do sprinkle. The tradition started in the early part of the 2nd Century. After the total apostacy took place. Not only did these early Christians lose the doctrine of baptisms for the dead, they lost the purpose of baptism for the remission of sins completely since infants cannot sin. They also lost the purpose of the Sacraments as well. The Sacraments represent the atonement of Christ for the remission of sins and the remembrance of this atonement. Not to pull the Lord off the cross at every mass around the world. Yuk!!! We get to renew our baptismal covenants every week during the blessing and partaking of the Sacraments done with authority through the Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Cougarbear]

Original sin...

Christ atoned for Adam and Eve's sin. Done. Baptism is now done for the remission of our sins, not Adam's or Eve's. Once again, the sign of apostacy of the RCC.

 

[Meriweather]

It would be unjust for God to hold all of Adam's posterity accountable for Adam's transgression. Baptism is for the remission of one's person sins since we are not accountable for other's sins. Jesus has already forgiven Adam for his transgression and thus resurrection from the dead is unto all, both the just and the unjust.

Then you noted that Catholics and LDS agree we are not being held accountable for the sins of anyone else. As I noted:

The reason for baptism is for rejecting the disobedience to God Adam and Eve introduced to our earthly life and taking up the obedience to God Jesus embraced. These are two very different ways of living our lives, and our baptism unveils and presents our choice. We choose a life in Christ's redemption, in the Holy Spirit, and in accepting God's grace of salvation and sanctification. Immersed in this life, our sins are forgiven.

We are not paying for Adams transgressions, nor being held accountable for them. Adam and Eve chose disobedience. Christ chose obedience, We follow Christ's way and therefore we are baptized.

 

[Meriweather]

Looks like sprinkling or pouring to me.

Early Christians proscribed living water, either immersed in living water or pouring living water over the person being baptized. One of the earliest pictures shows a person standing in shallow water with a seashell being used to pour water over him. However it looks to others, Catholics use the traditional immersion or pouring for baptisms.

 

[Meriweather]

They also lost the purpose

I don't pursue lies.

 

[Meriweather]

again, the sign of apostacy

And again, I don't pursue lies.

 

[Cougarbear]

Early Christians proscribed living water, either immersed in living water or pouring living water over the person being baptized. One of the earliest pictures shows a person standing in shallow water with a seashell being used to pour water over him. However it looks to others, Catholics use the traditional immersion or pouring for baptisms.

They don't have baptismal fonts in the churches around here. They pour or sprinkle around here in California. While Jesus and the Apostles were on the earth preaching, they immersed fully in water as symbolic for rebirth out of the womb or in some reasons, out of the grave of sin.

 

[Cougarbear]

I don't pursue lies.

This is a debate forum. Statements like that are unacceptable in a debate. Put forth your proof. I have the scriptures themselves for proof.

 

[Cougarbear]

And again, I don't pursue lies.

When doctrines and meanings change without prophecy, visions, and do so through traditions, that's apostacy.

 

[ninja007]

Mark 7:7-9
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King James Version
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7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

[ninja007]

Scripture talks about the universal reach of sin. But no passage or verse in scripture speaks definitively to the concept of an inborn sin nature. We can take sin seriously without going there. After all, Jesus didn’t believe in original sin, and the disciples and the early church didn’t either.

 

[norwegen]

When the Adamic people forsook God for another, they sinned. Idolatry was sin. Their progeny continued that tradition by and large. Except for a few righteous Israelites, idolatry plagued them throughout the Old Testament.

That is, until Christ, who reconciled them with God and who later exacted retribution on those who persisted in their sin.

From Adam to Christ, they were sinful. This "original sin" afflicted only the Israelites. But how quickly Christians forget that Christ defeated sin.

Christians should be living prosperous, fruitful, liberated lives, or Christ's work was for naught. Instead, they guilt themselves with some imaginary trespass that they had no part in. They're all doom and gloom. It's discouraging.

 

[Cougarbear]

Mark 7:7-9​

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King James Version​

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7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

And, here is the commandment of God, Jesus Christ. John 3:5, "Except a man a man be born of water (water baptism) and (in addition to) of the Spirit (Holy Ghost), HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!"
Stop teaching contrary to this Commandment of Jesus Christ.

 

[ninja007]

And, here is the commandment of God, Jesus Christ. John 3:5, "Except a man a man be born of water (water baptism) and (in addition to) of the Spirit (Holy Ghost), HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!"
Stop teaching contrary to this Commandment of Jesus Christ.

There's dozens of passages proving baptism doesn't save. Only the BLOOD SAVES.

 

[Cougarbear]

There's dozens of passages proving baptism doesn't save. Only the BLOOD SAVES.

You mean they contradict the words of Jesus Christ? Or, are you misunderstanding the other versus? Or, are you not quite sure what "Save" means and how that differs from "entering the kingdom of God?" There are three levels of Heaven written by Paul in First Corinthians chapter 15. One can be saved from eternal damnation in the lower two levels, the Terrestrial and Stars (Telestial). But, cannot enter the eternal most high kingdom the Celestial Glory where Father and Jesus reside. That is what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5. You can't just throw away a verse that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[norwegen]

Jesus said that unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5). In this quip, water, the Greek hudŏr, is used of the expression and symbol of the believer’s identification with Christ, not the medium for or cause of such identification; water baptism is figurative. It is birth in flesh, as context in the verses following John 3:5 make clear, as Jesus elaborated of birth both in the flesh and in the Spirit. He talks of life in flesh and in spirit, not in water and in spirit. The whole human being—both the natural self and the spiritual self—is a rightful citizen of God’s kingdom.

John the Baptist baptized his disciples in water, which would have made Jesus one of his disciples. But baptism elsewhere in the New Testament does not assume water baptism. Water did not change anyone’s condition, and it was not the means by which to find God’s kingdom. That power resided in spiritual baptism. In one Spirit the saints were baptized into one body, Paul taught (1 Cor 12:13). Water baptism did not do that. Also in contrast to John’s baptism, Jesus also taught baptism in the Holy Spirit, as we see in Acts 1:5. Jesus was fulfilling a spiritual baptism in a spiritual kingdom, actually making John the Baptist his disciple.