The Palestine Solution

BTW you are fighting a losing battle. There is no way any neutral observer will blame colonization on the colonized. It is illogical.

There is no way any neutral observer could label the Jewish people colonizers of their own homeland.
The problem with your post is that virtually none of the colonizers have any ancestors from Palestine.


ALL of the Jewish people originate from Israel and Judah. They all have ancestors from Israel and Judah. Otherwise they would not be JEWISH.

What are you proposing as a measure of who has ancestors from "Palestine"? And do you apply it universally?

Not necessarily...I think it's much more complicated that that. For example http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2013/10/did-modern-jews-originate-italy.

Richards acknowledges that the work is likely to be controversial. “I’d anticipate some resistance to our conclusions in certain quarters,” he says. One way to reconcile his team’s findings with those of other researchers, he says, is to assume that the founders of the male Ashkenazi lineages were indeed originally from the Middle East, but that the maternal line arose in Europe much earlier. The European women then converted to Judaism after male Jews moved into the continent, establishing the Ashkenazi lineages that we see today. That suggestion fits with the contention of some historians that many women converted to Judaism across Mediterranean Europe during the so-called Hellenistic period between about 300 B.C.E. and 30 B.C.E.

It would make sense since the population that fled the ME would be far to small to sustain itself without conversions and marriage outside the faith.

I think the "tie" to Israel and Judah is more one of religious heritage than genetics, much like the Muslim tie to Mecca.

The problem with trying to determine "a measure of who has ancestors from "Palestine" is you really can't in any but an arbritrary way. People moved and migrated many times since the earliest recorded histories there and even the Israelites were not the original peoples. You have people who moved on, moved in and people who stayed - and changed with the succeeding invasions - converting to new religions in the process. For example, when Christianity became the dominant religion, many Jews converted. When Islam became the dominant religion many Christians and Jews converted. And those are just the main religions - not the many smaller groups. The peoples may not have changed, but their religious and cultural identities transformed. So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?
 
Most of the European Jews have little or no connection with the Middle East or Palestine, no more than other Europeans, particularly southern Europeans. They were Europeans that converted to Judaism.

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts
Jon Entine | October 8, 2013 | Genetic Literacy Project

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts | Genetic Literacy Project

The article in your link doesn't say what you claim it says. But to be clear about your point -- you believe that mitochondrial DNA should be the determining factor in self-determination of an ethnic or cultural group and that the right of return should be based on that?

As far as solutions, then, are you suggesting we do genetic testing on all the citizens of Israel and the disputed territories and only retain those with the "correct" DNA? What percentage of the "correct" mDNA would be suitable? Shall we also test all the Palestinian refugees before they can be re-settled? And eliminate all those with Egyptian, Saudi, Persian or whatever other DNA might have crept in? Shall we ignore paternal ancestry altogether?

The Zionists are the Europeans that invaded Palestine and dispossessed the natives that were living in Palestine based on their claim that they had more right to the land than the natives. The natives whose ancestors have been living there for thousands of years don't need to demonstrate anything. They are the natives, the Zionists came from elsewhere.
That's really just an ignorant and desperate attempt to backtrack on your earlier cutting and pasting which clearly refutes your own feverish, chest-heaving rants about The Zionists™.

Since when were the Arab crusaders / colonists the native population?

If you are talking about the Palestinians....since quite a long time ago...http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
 
So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.
 
So, the Palestinians and their offspring that were evicted from their historical homeland in what is now Israel should have a right to return to what is now Israel and "get self determination"?

That would solve the problem.
 
So, the Palestinians and their offspring that were evicted from their historical homeland in what is now Israel should have a right to return to what is now Israel and "get self determination"?

That would solve the problem.

Its called the two state solution. The Palestinians and their descendants return to the newly formed state of Palestine. Israelis stay in Israel. Satisfactory conclusion to the conflict.
 
Israel has rejected the notion of the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. So how can there be a two-state solution?
 
Israel has rejected the notion of the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. So how can there be a two-state solution?
Hamas via their Charter has rejected a two-state solution.

Isreal has repeatedly made concessions via return of land won in war and via attempts at negotiation for a two-state solution.

You should make an attempt to review the history before you stumble over the facts.
 
Israel has rejected the notion of the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. So how can there be a two-state solution?

Netanyahu has rejected a Palestinian State in the current climate of hostility for security reasons. But that doesn't matter for this thread. The purpose of this thread is to see if WE (those participating) can come up with a solution that is fair, balanced and reasonable. One which puts in place broad concepts for finding a peace and an end to the conflict.
 
There cannot be a two state solution any longer. The populations of Jews and non-Jews are living too close to each other in a very crowded land. There will be a million Jewish Israelis in the West Bank before long and they aren't going anywhere. The non-Jewish citizens of Israel have grown to 25% of the population (Arab and non-Arab gentiles) and the natural growth of the non-Jews exceeds that of the Jews. The Jewish Israelis living in the West Bank are approaching 10% of the Jewish citizens of Israel. So in fact, over 30% of the Israeli citizens living in Israel proper, are not Jewish.
 
So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

I agree with your conclusion - I just don't see the means to determine it. How far back in history do you go to determine "historical ties"? How do you untangle the snarl of historical claims in lands where migrations and invasions have been frequent? You have multiple groups with overlapping claims.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Agree, and when it's used to try to determine legitimacy, it's only purpose is to disenfranchise the claims of the other side.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.

No, I agree with you - both sides have a just claim. The indiginous population consisted of a variety of ethnic and religious people that included Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller sects. You can say any one is an "invader" or a "squatters" etc. - historically, they've been there a long time.

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.
 
So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

I agree with your conclusion - I just don't see the means to determine it. How far back in history do you go to determine "historical ties"? How do you untangle the snarl of historical claims in lands where migrations and invasions have been frequent? You have multiple groups with overlapping claims.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Agree, and when it's used to try to determine legitimacy, it's only purpose is to disenfranchise the claims of the other side.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.

No, I agree with you - both sides have a just claim. The indiginous population consisted of a variety of ethnic and religious people that included Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller sects. You can say any one is an "invader" or a "squatters" etc. - historically, they've been there a long time.

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.

If we agree that both the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have overlapping, but valid claims -- its just a matter of deciding on a border. And you and I have agreed to the basic concepts, yes?

Contiguity. Security. Splitting of Jerusalem along population lines. Allowing the residents themselves, especially those along the border some choice. Dual citizenship. Family reunification. Shared caretakership of holy sites with equal access?

Wouldn't you say that we agree as to the concepts?
 
Coyote, et al,

And that is the million dollar question...

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.
(COMMENT)

The US has not learned yet, that it is so very often true --- you cannot just give "peace," and "security" to a people. In most cases --- you cannot just hand over a liberated country to the people.

Not one single faction within the ranks of the Palestinians has demonstrated that they have the necessary abilities, and the prerequisite skills to organized a peace settlement --- let alone the abilities to set-up a productive negotiation framework.

And I get the feel that while the Israeli's have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize such a framework for peace and negotiate a settlement, --- they would need a hell'of'alot of Oxycodone prescription (for the pain) and 200mg of Thorazine for each delegate (antipsychotic medication) just to maintain an atmosphere of a civil dull roar.

We best remember that the Palestinian is still operating under the Khartoum Resolution, which was: The “Three NOs” with respect to Israel:

  • NO peace with Israel
  • NO recognition of Israel
  • NO negotiations with Israel

Right off the bat, that kind of political position demonstrates the unwillingness to achieve some peaceful solution. They want the conflict to continue because they think they can inflict more political pain on the Israelis --- and that the UN and the Humanitarian strap hangers will insure that Israel is not allowed to develop a strategic military solution and impose peace.


Most Respectfully,
R
 
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So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

I agree with your conclusion - I just don't see the means to determine it. How far back in history do you go to determine "historical ties"? How do you untangle the snarl of historical claims in lands where migrations and invasions have been frequent? You have multiple groups with overlapping claims.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Agree, and when it's used to try to determine legitimacy, it's only purpose is to disenfranchise the claims of the other side.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.

No, I agree with you - both sides have a just claim. The indiginous population consisted of a variety of ethnic and religious people that included Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller sects. You can say any one is an "invader" or a "squatters" etc. - historically, they've been there a long time.

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.

If we agree that both the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have overlapping, but valid claims -- its just a matter of deciding on a border. And you and I have agreed to the basic concepts, yes?

Contiguity. Security. Splitting of Jerusalem along population lines. Allowing the residents themselves, especially those along the border some choice. Dual citizenship. Family reunification. Shared caretakership of holy sites with equal access?

Wouldn't you say that we agree as to the concepts?

Yes, we do :)
 
So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

I agree with your conclusion - I just don't see the means to determine it. How far back in history do you go to determine "historical ties"? How do you untangle the snarl of historical claims in lands where migrations and invasions have been frequent? You have multiple groups with overlapping claims.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Agree, and when it's used to try to determine legitimacy, it's only purpose is to disenfranchise the claims of the other side.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.

No, I agree with you - both sides have a just claim. The indiginous population consisted of a variety of ethnic and religious people that included Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller sects. You can say any one is an "invader" or a "squatters" etc. - historically, they've been there a long time.

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.
Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?
 
Coyote, et al,

And that is the million dollar question...

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.
(COMMENT)

The US has not learned yet, that it is so very often true --- you cannot just give "peace," and "security" to a people. In most cases --- you cannot just hand over a liberated country to the people.

Not one single faction within the ranks of the Palestinians has demonstrated that they have the necessary abilities, and the prerequisite skills to organized a peace settlement --- let alone the abilities to set-up a productive negotiation framework.

And I get the feel that while the Israeli's have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize such a framework for peace and negotiate a settlement, --- they would need a hell'of'alot of Oxycodone prescription (for the pain) and 200mg of Thorazine for each delegate (antipsychotic medication) just to maintain an atmosphere of a civil dull roar.

We best remember that the Palestinian is still operating under the Khartoum Resolution, which was: The “Three NOs” with respect to Israel:

  • NO peace with Israel
  • NO recognition of Israel
  • NO negotiations with Israel

Right off the bat, that kind of political position demonstrates the unwillingness to achieve some peaceful solution. They want the conflict to continue because they think they can inflict more political pain on the Israelis --- and that the UN and the Humanitarian strap hangers will insure that Israel is not allowed to develop a strategic military solution and impose peace.


Most Respectfully,
R
When there is justice peace will follow.
 
How does middle easterners settling in Ireland 5000 yrs ago support the mass death of jews? Before jumping to the conclusion there was any suggestion of insult to hate towards jews, you might have done your own search or asked for more information. To be more specific, the DNA origins are from the Caspian Steppe, basically north of today's Armenia and Georgia. How does that in any way support harm to jews? Even if they had Phoenician DNA it would in no way support harm to jews. You can shove your language an attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

I was told you are a supporter of jews and Israel and have mistaken you for another poster with a similar name, if not here than on another of the 30+ forums I regularly participate on.

If that is the case, my apologies and I retract all negative comments and personal insults. I reserve them for use against the various jew-hating filth in my signature, not against supporters of Israel and the sane.
 
I was told you are a supporter of jews and Israel and have mistaken you for another poster with a similar name, if not here than on another of the 30+ forums I regularly participate on.

If that is the case, my apologies and I retract all negative comments and personal insults. I reserve them for use against the various jew-hating filth in my signature, not against supporters of Israel and the sane.
Hey, where's my apology?

I support Jews (up on Pico Blvd).
 
I was told you are a supporter of jews and Israel and have mistaken you for another poster with a similar name, if not here than on another of the 30+ forums I regularly participate on.

If that is the case, my apologies and I retract all negative comments and personal insults. I reserve them for use against the various jew-hating filth in my signature, not against supporters of Israel and the sane.
Hey, where's my apology?

I support Jews (up on Pico Blvd).
Then you win a seegar, Billy O.
 
How does middle easterners settling in Ireland 5000 yrs ago support the mass death of jews? Before jumping to the conclusion there was any suggestion of insult to hate towards jews, you might have done your own search or asked for more information. To be more specific, the DNA origins are from the Caspian Steppe, basically north of today's Armenia and Georgia. How does that in any way support harm to jews? Even if they had Phoenician DNA it would in no way support harm to jews. You can shove your language an attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

I was told you are a supporter of jews and Israel and have mistaken you for another poster with a similar name, if not here than on another of the 30+ forums I regularly participate on.

If that is the case, my apologies and I retract all negative comments and personal insults. I reserve them for use against the various jew-hating filth in my signature, not against supporters of Israel and the sane.

I have tried to be a supporter of truth, reason and peace since the 70's working in the camps. I'm anti-terrorism, irrational hate and violence.
I have my grudges and enemies but they do not include whole populations ........... maybe ISIS. I've had my fill of war, bigotry, propaganda, terrorism and bombings.
 
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