The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Shusha]

So only majorities get to have rights and self-determination and nations?

Stop being so obtuse.

Stop making stupid comments that being a majority makes any sort of difference when determining who is eligible for self-determination.

 

[Shusha]

Of course Israel is an Apartheid state. The Jews are ... separated from the non-Jews, either through different laws for Jews and/or through the pseudo-Bantustans created to house the non-Jews that are completely controlled by the Jews.

Lies. There are no different laws for Jews, or any laws based on ethnicity or religion and it is illegal to discriminate based on religion or ethnicity. (Not so in Iran, as example, where certain laws are written to identify people by religion). Jews do not live separately from Arabs in Israel. Though they do in "Palestine". Oh wait, there are no Jews in Palestine. The ultimate apartheid -- ethnic cleansing. In the parts of the territory which are disputed there does tend to be a separation. Jews tend not to like being murdered at their Shabbat tables or while they sleep. But the "Bantustans" in Area C are at LEAST as created by the Palestinians than the Jews. Shirley Temper and her family aren't exactly welcoming Jewish outposts on their little hill.

 

[montelatici]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

 

[Shusha]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

Yeah, yeah. Same old same old. None of those laws identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity. I've been over them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

Yeah, yeah. Same old same old. None of those laws identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity. I've been over them.

You haven't read the report.

UN ESCWA report on Israeli apartheid | Palestine Liberation Organization | West Bank

 

[Hollie]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

Yeah, yeah. Same old same old. None of those laws identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity. I've been over them.

You haven't read the report.

UN ESCWA report on Israeli apartheid | Palestine Liberation Organization | West Bank

You need a new source for your silly propaganda.

About ESCWA

ESCWA comprises 18 Arab countries:Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, the State of Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.


Yeah. How about that. A collection of Islamist backwaters.


Maybe you want to drag out Richard Falk, again.

 

[Shusha]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

Yeah, yeah. Same old same old. None of those laws identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity. I've been over them.

You haven't read the report.

UN ESCWA report on Israeli apartheid | Palestine Liberation Organization | West Bank

Oh I've read that silly report too. Still no laws which identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course there are different laws for Jews. Starting with Palestinians are denied the right to return to their land and homes while Jews who never had any land or homes in Palestine can legally "return". Then there are another 50 or more discriminatory laws that favor Jews. Israeli law specifically identifies people by religion/race. There are 750 thousand (and growing) Jew settlers in Palestine living in separated apartheid communities within Palestine. You have nothing but lies to present.

Here are the 50 or more discriminatory laws:

Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

Yeah, yeah. Same old same old. None of those laws identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity. I've been over them.

You haven't read the report.

UN ESCWA report on Israeli apartheid | Palestine Liberation Organization | West Bank

Oh I've read that silly report too. Still no laws which identify or discriminate people by religion or ethnicity.

 

[Billo_Really]

You grievously misunderstand my position if you think I am "for" the "occupation". I am for the creation of two other States, for the Arab Palestinian people, with them having full sovereignty, self-determination and self-governance, based loosely on the 1949 Armistice Lines, with land swaps, as negotiated by Israel and the Arab Palestinians in a mutual agreement and enduring peace treaty.

While we are waiting for that to occur, Israel's security and the safety of her people takes priority over ALL ELSE. Without exception. Security measures must be in place until the Arab Palestinians stop trying to destroy the State of Israel and murder her citizens. This will be evident when -- the governments of the Arab Palestinians stop inciting hatred and violence, stop calling for the murder of Jews and Israelis, stop pay for slay and the celebration of dead Arab Palestinians, and when all attacks, riots, "protests", intifada, and instigation of war have ceased for a good long amount of time -- a year is a good starting place.

The problem with your idea of the "occupation" and the need for Israel to unilaterally "end the occupation" is that you want none of the prerequisites for peace and security to be in place prior to the withdrawal. No peace treaty, no recognition, no end of hostilities, no agreement of what is considered "occupation", no security guarantees, no formal border, no infrastructure, no proper government, no economic discussions, nothing.

We tried it your way. And 62 people died because of it yesterday.

The occupation is the cause of the violence. The violence cannot possibly end without the occupation ending first. You cannot stop the effect, without first stopping the cause.

The Palestinian governments did try the political solution of a unity government and ending their more militant wings, Israel attacked. Israel will not let the Palestinians seek peace. The Israelis do not want peace. If they did, they wouldn't break all the ceasefires.

BTW, those 62 people were murdered by Israeli snipers. You are not being truthful.

 

[Billo_Really]

Stop making stupid comments that being a majority makes any sort of difference when determining who is eligible for self-determination.

Again, I didn't say that. Why do you keep lying?

 

[Shusha]

The occupation is the cause of the violence. The violence cannot possibly end without the occupation ending first. You cannot stop the effect, without first stopping the cause.

The occupation is an excuse for violence. It is not the cause of the violence. Its a convenient soundbite used by anti-Israel folks to shift responsibility entirely to Israel so Arab Palestinians and their "supporters" don't have to require anything from the Arabs -- even with something as simple as a cessation of violence.

The CAUSES of the violence in Gaza right now, especially, are multiple:

1. The deeply held belief system of Arab Muslims that the Jewish people have no rights to sovereignty over any of the territory. This is a complex mix of religious beliefs, widespread antisemitism and the rejection of Jewish history and Jewish indigeneity.

2. A strongly ambivalent, at best, or non-existent, at worse, desire for an independent, wholly Palestinian State as a complete and separate from #1 above combined with a resistance to be seen as culturally distinct from Syrians and Jordanians. Neither can West Bank Palestinians and the Gazan Palestinians find it in themselves to either bring the halves together in a mutual State nor to fully separate themselves into distinct nations.

3. The desire to return to specific locations, which is intimately tied to point #1 and point #2 where the intention is deny Jewish sovereignty and Jewish self-determination and not to be assimilated into a Jewish State in those places.

4. Continued sense of a lack of agency in development of their own future which is caused primarily by inept and corrupt governments and an overall lack of vision.

5. The redistribution of resources to violence instead of toward economic health.

None of these issues can be solved by Israel "ending the occupation". In fact, as we saw with Gaza, "ending the occupation" lead to an intensification of all of these issues.


And, just to give you the other point of view, the CAUSES of the Israeli "occupation" are also multiple:

1. First and foremost it is NEVER. EVER. AGAIN. The Jewish people will never again permit themselves to be indiscriminately or deliberately slaughtered. Neither in the homeland nor in the wider Diaspora. Security and safety take precedence over everything else.

2. The Jewish people seek a national identity where the culture is primarily Jewish. Where the Jewish people are free to live Jewish lives. There is nothing immoral about this goal. Not every nation needs to be a melting pot. Most countries in the world are firmly established on the premise of a distinct ethnic culture. And most modern wars are predicated on this stance.

None of these issues can be solved by Israel "ending the occupation".

 

[Shusha]

Stop making stupid comments that being a majority makes any sort of difference when determining who is eligible for self-determination.

Again, I didn't say that. Why do you keep lying?

You brought up majority populations.

If it doesn't matter, why did you bring it up?

If it does matter, then all my comments apply.

 

[montelatici]

"The Jewish people seek a national identity where the culture is primarily Jewish."

If so, they should not invaded a land where the majority of the people were not Jewish. Imposing, through force, a particular racial, religious or cultural imprint on population of others of equal or greater number is minority rule and is immoral.

 

[Billo_Really]

The occupation is an excuse for violence. It is not the cause of the violence. Its a convenient soundbite used by anti-Israel folks to shift responsibility entirely to Israel so Arab Palestinians and their "supporters" don't have to require anything from the Arabs -- even with something as simple as a cessation of violence.

You've never lived under the occupation of a foreign force, so shut your goddamn mouth!

The CAUSES of the violence in Gaza right now, especially, are multiple:

1. The deeply held belief system of Arab Muslims that the Jewish people have no rights to sovereignty over any of the territory. This is a complex mix of religious beliefs, widespread antisemitism and the rejection of Jewish history and Jewish indigeneity.

Wrong! At issue is the rights you stripped from them.

2. A strongly ambivalent, at best, or non-existent, at worse, desire for an independent, wholly Palestinian State as a complete and separate from #1 above combined with a resistance to be seen as culturally distinct from Syrians and Jordanians. Neither can West Bank Palestinians and the Gazan Palestinians find it in themselves to either bring the halves together in a mutual State nor to fully separate themselves into distinct nations.

I've told you 3 times already they tried to do this. Israel attacked. Israel will not let them seek peace.

3. The desire to return to specific locations, which is intimately tied to point #1 and point #2 where the intention is deny Jewish sovereignty and Jewish self-determination and not to be assimilated into a Jewish State in those places.

If you have the right to return, then so do they. And they do not have to become Jewish. How very Nazi of you?

4. Continued sense of a lack of agency in development of their own future which is caused primarily by inept and corrupt governments and an overall lack of vision.

A population under occupation has no vision.

5. The redistribution of resources to violence instead of toward economic health.

You refuse to be truthful.

None of these issues can be solved by Israel "ending the occupation". In fact, as we saw with Gaza, "ending the occupation" lead to an intensification of all of these issues.

The occupation has not ended. This has been explained to you several times yet you keep insisting on the insane.

And, just to give you the other point of view, the CAUSES of the Israeli "occupation" are also multiple:

1. First and foremost it is NEVER. EVER. AGAIN. The Jewish people will never again permit themselves to be indiscriminately or deliberately slaughtered. Neither in the homeland nor in the wider Diaspora. Security and safety take precedence over everything else.

The Holocaust doesn't give you the right to treat other people like garbage. And BTW, the Diaspora never happened. Jews were never exiled.

2. The Jewish people seek a national identity where the culture is primarily Jewish. Where the Jewish people are free to live Jewish lives. There is nothing immoral about this goal. Not every nation needs to be a melting pot. Most countries in the world are firmly established on the premise of a distinct ethnic culture. And most modern wars are predicated on this stance.

Yeah, and all the Nazis wanted was an Aryan Nation.

None of these issues can be solved by Israel "ending the occupation".

None of the issues can be solved by Israel acting like Nazi Germany.

 

[Billo_Really]

You brought up majority populations.

If it doesn't matter, why did you bring it up?

If it does matter, then all my comments apply.

I said Palestinian-Arabs were the majority land owners at the time of the Zionist migration. Why do you think 10% of the population, should get 70% of the land?

 

[Shusha]

Wrong! At issue is the rights you stripped from them.

I've told you 3 times already they tried to do this. Israel attacked. Israel will not let them seek peace.

If you have the right to return, then so do they. And they do not have to become Jewish. How very Nazi of you?

A population under occupation has no vision.

You refuse to be truthful.

The occupation has not ended. This has been explained to you several times yet you keep insisting on the insane.

The Holocaust doesn't give you the right to treat other people like garbage. And BTW, the Diaspora never happened. Jews were never exiled.

Yeah, and all the Nazis wanted was an Aryan Nation.

None of the issues can be solved by Israel acting like Nazi Germany.

Its a habit with you to devolve into angry anti-Israel and anti-Jewish rhetoric when you have no adequate response.

 

[Shusha]

I said Palestinian-Arabs were the majority land owners at the time of the Zionist migration. Why do you think 10% of the population, should get 70% of the land?

So now you are saying it matters whether a population is a majority or a minority with respect to sovereignty. But land ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty or rights to sovereignty.

 

[Billo_Really]

So now you are saying it matters whether a population is a majority or a minority with respect to sovereignty. But land ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty or rights to sovereignty.

You're so full of shit.

There was more than a whiff of hypocrisy...in statements about “defending borders” from a state that has refused to declare its borders since its creation exactly 70 years ago... ​

 

[Billo_Really]

Its a habit with you to devolve into angry anti-Israel and anti-Jewish rhetoric when you have no adequate response.

Except I'm not angry.

Why is it you can't address what I said?

 

[Billo_Really]

Innocent Palestinians are being murdered by Israeli snipers and you're worried about a fence?

Israeli's are just pure evil.