The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Shusha]

And here you are, alleging that the State of Israel, I and others, wish the Palestinian people to disappear.

I have no idea how Israel intends to do so, since they did recognize them as a nationality decades ago, and have been working hard to make the PA and Gaza put down their weapons long enough to sit down and negotiate for the Arab State they keep saying they want to have.

And still, as you say that we are somehow wanting the Palestinians to disappear ...,

THIS.

Even as Sixties vehemently argues his point concerning indigeneity and Jewish rights -- still he fundamentally recognizes Arab Palestinian rights. This is VASTLY different than TP which argues, consistently, that Israel has no right to exist, Israel does not exist, the Jewish people aren't really a people, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Denying them ties to the region is denying them rights to it - and I see that [often enough when they talk of sending them to Jordan for example.

Yeah, but dividing Palestine into two States -- 75% for the Arab people of the area and 25% for the Jewish people of the area (and her returning people) seems more than fair to the Arabs. Its a legit argument. That the Arab State is Jordan. And the Jewish State is Israel -- all of it. Remembering that, at the time, and NOW, the Arabs do not see any difference in IDENTITY between "Palestinians" and "Jordanians". (Or Syrians).

And there are NO posters here who think that Palestinians should be sent to Jordan simply on the principle that they are Arab. Every single poster here on TI rejects that. Some have suggested that if the Arab Palestinians can't be non-violent that the only solution is to segregate them. But that is a COMPLETELY different discussion.

It is not a legit argument, it's an inhuman one.

There absolutely are those who think that Palestinians should be expelled elsewhere. I'll look them up but for a start - look at MJB's posts.

For sure all of those who have spelled out how they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel, the government has the right to decide if she wants any of them to live in the country.

Or they can stay in Gaza and build their nation, already !
or Build another Arab Muslim nation, or Emirates, whatever they like in Areas A and B.

With the education the Arab Palestinians keep getting in school, they only want one thing.

Destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

It is not an opinion, it is in the research done by PMW and many other organizations, it is what has been found in the textbooks distributed by UNWRA in Gaza and elsewhere .

How to stop that inhumane ideology which drags generations after generations to want to kill people for a piece of land?

 

[Coyote]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

Speaking of deceptive...how about a direct answer? Do you believe that the Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

 

[rylah]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

Their heritage in terms of bloodlines and place most certainly did.

Enough with this, what bloodlines?!

Arabs are still to this day keep to their Arabian roots, in every aspect of their social life, be it Yemenite/Saudi politcal fractions, family histories of migration and origins, belonging to Arabian tribes, and surnames that leave no doubt about their roots.

Fact is Christians Muslim Arabs in Palestine is the group that migrated from a much wider variety of countries and spoke a wider variety of languages than Jews - by a BIG gap.

There's ZERO Canaanite heritage in that group that one can point to.
In fact all this shabang about Arabs turning into Canaanites only appeared when Jews revived the Canaanite history of the land.

You're trying to make Arabs into anybody and everyone at the same time just so that You have some remote chance to catch a fish with a bigger net. But more importantly all this is done as an attempt to not see the obvious. And the obvious thing is that in any such attempt to invent a new identity for Arabs it virtually all goes through JEWS, the only indigenous people at hand to whom all try to compare, and the ONLY people who kept Canaanite heritage.

When are we going to let people decide their identity rather than invent it for them because certain liberal ideals of all-inclusiveness look better than calling things by their name?

 

[Shusha]

You do realize the conflict saw the expulsions of both Jews and Palestinians, right? Not just Jews.

Yeah. No.

In the simplest terms, Jews were expelled from Arab Muslim lands without cause or threat. Arabs (and Jews) were expelled from some places within Israel/"Palestine" in the context of a military conflict.

Again, there is no equivalence here.

 

[Sixties Fan]

There is room for both with denying either their narratives and historic connections to place.

No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinians long connection to the place by reason of their long residence there.

They are denying that their ancestors included people who existed there prior to the Islamic conquest.

The number of people who would have converted by will or by force is minuscule, compared to the majority of the people who remained Jewish, Bedouins, Druze, and all others who did live there at the time.

There is no way of knowing with any accuracy how many.

But what the Arab Muslim Palestinians have been doing with their BDS campaign, check Abbas' quotes, is to say that the Palestinians people have been there for 5000 years. No, 10,000 years. No, One Million Years.........

About that 10,000-year history in Jericho, Mr. Erekat

Palestine Office Tourism Website Illustrates Absurdity Of Palestinian Narrative

Another Abbas Lie: Palestinians are the Descendants of the Canaanites


Which one could possibly be true? And without any archeological proof.

The first one is hardly a scientific article nor one written by historical experts. What is your point?

Same with the second one.

The third one could, oddly have some merit based on the dna analysis referred to in the National Geographic article you refer to as "mistaken".

The point in all of them is that the PA, Abbas and others, are going around changing their story of how long the Palestinians have actually been in the area.

Those articles were not written out of a vacuum, but based on what Abbas, Erekart and other Palestinian leaders have been telling the Western world for the past 10 to 20 years.

Why would they do that? Do they not know how far back the Palestinian people have lived on the land and exactly where?

Are they the Canaanite tribe? The Hitites? Edomites? Jebusites? Any and all of them?


And the Palestinian Museum remains empty.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

Speaking of deceptive...how about a direct answer? Do you believe that the Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

I am not being deceptive, you are.

You know full well no such people as "Palestinian" existed until recent times yet you demand I answer a question as if they did.

 

[Shusha]

Who's heritage are Palestinians usurping? They DO have ties to THAT land - they do have their own heritage that goes back a long time - maybe not as distinctive as the Jewish heritage, but none the less they have those ties.

They are usurping Jewish heritage. Literally laying claim to Jewish sites, and Jewish people and Jewish history. Their heritage goes back to the Arab conquest. There is NOTHING about their heritage prior to that. Some of their ancestors certainly went back further than that. Their heritage, though, their IDENTITY, stems entirely from the Arab conquest. They would have no culture without it.

 

[Shusha]

Actually...the idea of heritage becomes especially difficult when you have not one, but three ancient religions claiming some recognition of the same sites. Does that mean they are usurping them?

Yep. Absolutely. Completely. Without doubt. Christians and Muslims have usurped Jewish sites. Literally taken them over. Prevented the original (indigenous) peoples from worshiping there.

Should Jews have access to ancient Cambodian Temples? And then build a synagogue there? And then claim if for a Jewish (and only Jewish) holy site? Denying Cambodians access to their holy places? It sounds ridiculous when you apply it to other cultures. But somehow, its okay if its done to Jews.

 

[Coyote]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

Speaking of deceptive...how about a direct answer? Do you believe that the Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

I am not being deceptive, you are.

You know full well no such people as "Palestinian" existed until recent times yet you demand I answer a question as if they did.

So you won't give a straight answer?

Ok, let me rephrase it in a way that is more acceptable to you: Do you believe that the people, referred to as Palestinians, have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

 

[Coyote]

Actually...the idea of heritage becomes especially difficult when you have not one, but three ancient religions claiming some recognition of the same sites. Does that mean they are usurping them?

Yep. Absolutely. Completely. Without doubt. Christians and Muslims have usurped Jewish sites. Literally taken them over. Prevented the original (indigenous) peoples from worshiping there.

Should Jews have access to ancient Cambodian Temples? And then build a synagogue there? And then claim if for a Jewish (and only Jewish) holy site? Denying Cambodians access to their holy places? It sounds ridiculous when you apply it to other cultures. But somehow, its okay if its done to Jews.

But there is no relationship between Jews and Cambodian Temples. There is a relationship between Christians and Muslims and Jews to some of the same sites. So is that really comparable?

No one should be denied access to their holy sites.

 

[Coyote]

There is room for both with denying either their narratives and historic connections to place.

No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinians long connection to the place by reason of their long residence there.

They are denying that their ancestors included people who existed there prior to the Islamic conquest.

The number of people who would have converted by will or by force is minuscule, compared to the majority of the people who remained Jewish, Bedouins, Druze, and all others who did live there at the time.

There is no way of knowing with any accuracy how many.

But what the Arab Muslim Palestinians have been doing with their BDS campaign, check Abbas' quotes, is to say that the Palestinians people have been there for 5000 years. No, 10,000 years. No, One Million Years.........

About that 10,000-year history in Jericho, Mr. Erekat

Palestine Office Tourism Website Illustrates Absurdity Of Palestinian Narrative

Another Abbas Lie: Palestinians are the Descendants of the Canaanites


Which one could possibly be true? And without any archeological proof.

The first one is hardly a scientific article nor one written by historical experts. What is your point?

Same with the second one.

The third one could, oddly have some merit based on the dna analysis referred to in the National Geographic article you refer to as "mistaken".

The point in all of them is that the PA, Abbas and others, are going around changing their story of how long the Palestinians have actually been in the area.

Those articles were not written out of a vacuum, but based on what Abbas, Erekart and other Palestinian leaders have been telling the Western world for the past 10 to 20 years.

Why would they do that? Do they not know how far back the Palestinian people have lived on the land and exactly where?

Are they the Canaanite tribe? The Hitites? Edomites? Jebusites? Any and all of them?


And the Palestinian Museum remains empty.

They can change their stories, it's all political and designed to suit their agenda. I don't disagree there. But it doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians do descend from much older peoples then the Arabs, with a mixture of later Arab blood. In fact in the genetic study I quoted earlier - they are much closer to a number of Jewish groups and Syrians then they are to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula (such as the Saudi's).

 

[rylah]

Qarawat Bani Hassan Town Profile

Location and Physical Characteristics
Qarawat Bani Hassan is a Palestinian town in Salfit Governorate located 8.9 km north-west of Salfit City. Qarawat Bani Hassan is bordered by Deir Istiya and Haris villages to the east, Sarta to the south, Biddya town to the west, and Deir Istiya to the north (ARIJ-GIS, 2013) (See Map 1).

History
Qarawat Bani Hassan town was named in relation to a righteous man called Abu Muhammad Abdul Hamid ben Madd al Qarawani al Hassani descended from the Al Husniya tribes which were responsible for controlling and protecting the trade roads; from Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem until „Azzun village in the northern West Bank. The word “Qarawat” is derived from the word “Qura” which means generosity or good hospitality. The town was established in 1600 AD with its residents deriving from Al Husniya tribes whom are descendants of the Arabian Peninsula (Qarawat Bani Hassan Municipality, 2012).

http://vprofile.arij.org/salfit/pdfs/vprofile/Qarawat.pdf


-"No, no, they don't know who they are, but they're Canaanites, Jews, Romans, Jebusites and anything BUT Arabians "

You know what's funny, people go to such lengthy loops that they don't even try to tie them to Philistines anymore, because it's pretty clear to anyone with little sense those Arabian tribes are no Greek "sea people". But let anyone suggest the most evident - they're from Arabia and mental gymnastics begin working extra hours.

This just shows how skewed this Palestinian identity at the root, whole cultures and nations loose their identity for the Arabs to feel "home" in countries everyone knows they've invaded and ethnically cleansed.

 

[Shusha]

One religion building on another is not exactly new. What I have a problem with in terms of Muslims is when they want to claim it for Islam only, which they can't, but they are a sacred trust for 3 religions now.

What do you do?

1. You acknowledge the originating indigenous, aboriginal culture.
2. You remove yourself as much as possible from everything you have usurped.
3. You give the originating culture the space to honor their religion and worship as they need.
4. You ask permission of them to continue to use your holy spaces with mutual respect and dignity.

None of this is HARD for decent, moral human beings. The especial Holy Places do NOT actually encroach upon each other. There is no reason for Jews not to have the Temple Mount and the Kotel, the Christians to have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolarosa, and the Muslims to have Al-Aqsa. They do not actually encroach on each other. (Depending on where Jews decide the Holy of Holies is -- but Jews tend to be somewhat flexible (cough cough) in that way).

There is no actual conflict here. And you have the added advantage that the originating peoples -- the Jewish peoples -- have a theology that encourages worship by ALL of the nations. And a sovereign government which is willing to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to facilitate worship for other people.

This is win, win, win, win. If only the OTHER religions would just let it happen.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

Speaking of deceptive...how about a direct answer? Do you believe that the Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

I am not being deceptive, you are.

You know full well no such people as "Palestinian" existed until recent times yet you demand I answer a question as if they did.

So you won't give a straight answer?

Ok, let me rephrase it in a way that is more acceptable to you: Do you believe that the people, referred to as Palestinians, have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

What does any of our answers matter, when you do not see that the Palestinians have been since 1920, intent in depriving the Jews of any and all of their land, with multiple riots, attacks, then wars from 1948 to 1973 and then it evolved into the BDS movement continuing to delegitimize the Jewish rights to any and all of their ancient homeland.

I will say it again, that you are not reading all of the sources you need to read in order to arrive at a balanced view of the conflict.

All of your demands for the rights of the Palestinians when the rights have been trampled on by the Arab Muslims, not only for the past 1400 years, but especially now that they "dared" to achieve sovereignty over a sliver of what was once their homeland.

Do the Palestinians have any right to any place if they are intent in destroying Israel and kill all the Jews, as they continuously teach their generations and even yell at the Jews before attacking them with anything they have?

Anything, because that is what that kind of education and incitement will do to the minds of Muslims who are taught from their own "holy book" that the Jews are not humans, and therefore one can kill them at will.

Opinion? No.
Need to be scientific? No

It is all in the Quran and the endless education they get on a daily basis on how to treat the Jews.

The Quran only agrees that the land belongs to the Jews, as long as the Jews are under Arab Muslim control.

Sovereignty is not for the Jews. Not with any Muslims around.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

I was responding to your snarky and dismissive comment "So...look who chooses to make an appearance" which does bring into question my right to post, here, and constitutes an ad Hominem rather than a rebuttal.

"Palestinians" did not exist until they were invented for propaganda purposes. Your question is deceptive and intentionally so.

ARABS existed at the time of the original mandate rather than these so-called "Palestinians" and so any honest look at the situation would evaluate ARAB interests vs Jewish. The original mandate included what is now Jordan, so any divvying up of terrritory must take that into account in order to be honest and fair.

Speaking of deceptive...how about a direct answer? Do you believe that the Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

I am not being deceptive, you are.

You know full well no such people as "Palestinian" existed until recent times yet you demand I answer a question as if they did.

So you won't give a straight answer?

Ok, let me rephrase it in a way that is more acceptable to you: Do you believe that the people, referred to as Palestinians, have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine? We aren't talking about historical divisions - we are talking about a place where they live and have lived for centuries if not thousands of years. Basically do they have a right to that place?

I believe that any Arab that can prove ownership and the forced removal from that which they owned should be recompensed.

I do not believe that Arabs who moved into the area as a result of Jewish economic development and who were hostile to the creation of the new state are owed anything.

Since there are MORE Jews who were kicked out of Arab lands than there were Arabs who fled Israel, I consider the matter settled.

This creation of a brand new people called 'Palestinian" I find disingenuous and manipulative.

 

[Shusha]

You state that they have a right to their own state. The question is - where? The land of their heritage where they had made their homes...? Or someplace else?

The trick is to define the "land of their heritage". If you were to draw a map and crayon in blue all the "land of their heritage" of the Jewish people and crayon in green the "land of their heritage" for the Arab Palestinian/Jordanian/Syrian people and then divide those portions with some level of equality -- the Jewish people would certainly not get less than they are exerting sovereignty over and would likely get quite a bit more.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ How the Palestinian Grand Mufti went all the way to Iraq in 1941, in order to kill Jews there .......because it was all about ......Palestine....]

Similar attacks occurred against almost all the Jews living in Arab countries.

These Jews, who had lived in these countries for thousands of years, did not declare war on their hosts. They never fought against them, as the Arabs in mandatory Palestine fought against that Jews and afterward against the nascent Jewish State of Israel. The world has heard a great deal about the “Nakba,” the “catastrophe” of the Palestinian Arabs, but knows almost nothing about the wrongs committed against Jews in Arab countries. What happened in Iraq and the rest of the Arab countries was in effect an ethnic cleansing. Jews were forced to leave behind their personal and communal property, including schools, hospitals, ancient synagogues, cemeteries, and prophets’ graves. The Arab governments confiscated all Jewish property.

(full article online)

The 77th anniversary of the Farhud

 

[Shusha]

None of this affects their rights in even the smallest way. No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinian rights.

You should talk to MJB, Boston, Indee, Hollie and some of the others.

I have seen all of their posts. Non of them are denying Arab Palestinian rights to a territory, to sovereignty or to self-determination.