Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
Ah murder ... yes ... the game of kings.Only the UK and Pakistan recognized the occupation of Palestine (WB) by Jordan. A Palestinian (former Palestinian soldier who had defended Palestine against the Zionists) assassinated Jordan's king in response to the annexation. The Palestinians disliked Jordanian occupation as much as Israeli occupation.
Egypt never annexed Palestine (Gaza).
Here's my thoughts. It will not work.
Although Israel is constantly demonized for their 'blockade' of the Gaza strip, no one seems to mention nor demonize Egypt for their blockade of the portion of the Gaza strip that borders their country.
Egypt doesn't want anything to do with them.
At one time, 'Palestinians' living in the west bank were part of Jordan and even given Jordanian citizenship and passports. However, after the six day war and Arafat's creation of a new Palestinian peoples, they actually tried to take over the whole of Jordan from the Hashemite kingdom. Remember Black September?
Link:Black September - WikipediaThe civil war determined if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership
Jordan no longer wants anything to do with them.
And Jordan isn't demonized here for that either.
Sure. I don't disagree. BUT Jordan is not the same as the Jordan of 1967. Jordan has had a chance to grow and develop. And it might be possible to create a semi-autonomous state of Palestine with Jordanian federal jurisdiction that would both support Palestinian independence while providing some guidance and a measure of limitation.
In addition, Israel will continue to ally itself with Jordan -- so it will be the big guys Jordan and Israel who monitor and control any bad behavior on the part of the Palestinians. That is a huge shift from 1967.
And I wholeheartedly agree no one wants anything to do with Gaza. Most understandably.
Is anyone taking into consideration that both Egypt and Jordan took Gaza and Judea/Samaria (West Bank) in order to either annex them (Jordan) or simply dump unwanted Arabs into the area (Gaza)?
Egypt during the Peace Treaty would not take Gaza back from Israel mainly to stick Israel with the conditions which grew out of it, which turned Gaza as a weapon against Israel. Even with Israel totally withdrawing from Gaza in 2005, the reason Gaza exists continues to be clear.
Egypt has refused recently creating a Palestinian State in the Sinai Peninsula as a continuation of Gaza, considering the size of the land. I think the idea was mainly getting all Muslims from Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem, who wanted their own Muslim State to create it in that area.
Those who wanted to live under Israel's sovereignty and would not be a threat to the country would remain in Israel, Judea and Samaria. And there are many Muslim Arabs who do want to stay
with Israel, rather than a Palestine State.
Here are the problems:
Islam and its teachings
Hamas and the PLO/PA/Fatah charters which call for the destruction of Israel
Endless donations from Qatar, EU, Iran etc in order to help the two main organizations attempt to fulfill their charters.
Solutions:
One needs to put an end to any and all money going to Hamas/Gaza and the PA which only perpetuates the conflict.
The only way Egypt and Jordan agreed to a Peace Treaty with Israel is because their economy suffered from so many attacks on Israel and nearly brought both new countries down.
-------
Neither Hamas nor the PA see anything to lose, as the leaders and their families and friends live a luxurious life paid by the Arab countries and some Western countries as well.
Hizbollah is also a problem as it is weaponized by Iran.
So, Hamas, the PA/PLO, Hizbollah, Iran, and other players in the conflict are basically the ones keeping the conflict going and the possibility of Palestine State null and void.
Arafat did not sign the Oslo Accords in order to prepare the Arabs for Peace with Israel.
Arafat did what Mohammad did. He signed treaties and then when least expected he attacked Israel, as he did from 2000 on.
In looking for a solution, one must know what Islam stands for from Mohammad to Husseini, to Arafat, to Abbas, Mashall, the Ayatollah and other leaders who do follow Islamic teachings to the letter.
One State Solution which the Arabs/Muslims will agree on, allowing Israel to continue to exit.
How can the world help to arrive to it?
Spam bot.Here's my thoughts. It will not work.
Although Israel is constantly demonized for their 'blockade' of the Gaza strip, no one seems to mention nor demonize Egypt for their blockade of the portion of the Gaza strip that borders their country.
Egypt doesn't want anything to do with them.
At one time, 'Palestinians' living in the west bank were part of Jordan and even given Jordanian citizenship and passports. However, after the six day war and Arafat's creation of a new Palestinian peoples, they actually tried to take over the whole of Jordan from the Hashemite kingdom. Remember Black September?
Link:Black September - WikipediaThe civil war determined if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership
Jordan no longer wants anything to do with them.
And Jordan isn't demonized here for that either.
Sure. I don't disagree. BUT Jordan is not the same as the Jordan of 1967. Jordan has had a chance to grow and develop. And it might be possible to create a semi-autonomous state of Palestine with Jordanian federal jurisdiction that would both support Palestinian independence while providing some guidance and a measure of limitation.
In addition, Israel will continue to ally itself with Jordan -- so it will be the big guys Jordan and Israel who monitor and control any bad behavior on the part of the Palestinians. That is a huge shift from 1967.
And I wholeheartedly agree no one wants anything to do with Gaza. Most understandably.
Is anyone taking into consideration that both Egypt and Jordan took Gaza and Judea/Samaria (West Bank) in order to either annex them (Jordan) or simply dump unwanted Arabs into the area (Gaza)?
Egypt during the Peace Treaty would not take Gaza back from Israel mainly to stick Israel with the conditions which grew out of it, which turned Gaza as a weapon against Israel. Even with Israel totally withdrawing from Gaza in 2005, the reason Gaza exists continues to be clear.
Egypt has refused recently creating a Palestinian State in the Sinai Peninsula as a continuation of Gaza, considering the size of the land. I think the idea was mainly getting all Muslims from Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem, who wanted their own Muslim State to create it in that area.
Those who wanted to live under Israel's sovereignty and would not be a threat to the country would remain in Israel, Judea and Samaria. And there are many Muslim Arabs who do want to stay
with Israel, rather than a Palestine State.
Here are the problems:
Islam and its teachings
Hamas and the PLO/PA/Fatah charters which call for the destruction of Israel
Endless donations from Qatar, EU, Iran etc in order to help the two main organizations attempt to fulfill their charters.
Solutions:
One needs to put an end to any and all money going to Hamas/Gaza and the PA which only perpetuates the conflict.
The only way Egypt and Jordan agreed to a Peace Treaty with Israel is because their economy suffered from so many attacks on Israel and nearly brought both new countries down.
-------
Neither Hamas nor the PA see anything to lose, as the leaders and their families and friends live a luxurious life paid by the Arab countries and some Western countries as well.
Hizbollah is also a problem as it is weaponized by Iran.
So, Hamas, the PA/PLO, Hizbollah, Iran, and other players in the conflict are basically the ones keeping the conflict going and the possibility of Palestine State null and void.
Arafat did not sign the Oslo Accords in order to prepare the Arabs for Peace with Israel.
Arafat did what Mohammad did. He signed treaties and then when least expected he attacked Israel, as he did from 2000 on.
In looking for a solution, one must know what Islam stands for from Mohammad to Husseini, to Arafat, to Abbas, Mashall, the Ayatollah and other leaders who do follow Islamic teachings to the letter.
One State Solution which the Arabs/Muslims will agree on, allowing Israel to continue to exit.
How can the world help to arrive to it?
Israel has perpetuated the conflict by continuing its occupation of the West Bank. Gaza and East Jerusalem without ever giving any indication that it would withdraw and allow the creation of a truly sovereign Palestinian state. In fact, in all of its offers it has demanded the permanent control of borders, air space and territorial see and the basing of occupation troops in Palestine forever. With the transfer of its population to the occupied territories it has made the establishment of a Palestinian state impossible, so now either Israel continues to be an Apartheid state, or it gives the vote to all the people it controls and becomes a secular, democratic state.
Spam bot.Here's my thoughts. It will not work.
Although Israel is constantly demonized for their 'blockade' of the Gaza strip, no one seems to mention nor demonize Egypt for their blockade of the portion of the Gaza strip that borders their country.
Egypt doesn't want anything to do with them.
At one time, 'Palestinians' living in the west bank were part of Jordan and even given Jordanian citizenship and passports. However, after the six day war and Arafat's creation of a new Palestinian peoples, they actually tried to take over the whole of Jordan from the Hashemite kingdom. Remember Black September?
Link:Black September - WikipediaThe civil war determined if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership
Jordan no longer wants anything to do with them.
And Jordan isn't demonized here for that either.
Sure. I don't disagree. BUT Jordan is not the same as the Jordan of 1967. Jordan has had a chance to grow and develop. And it might be possible to create a semi-autonomous state of Palestine with Jordanian federal jurisdiction that would both support Palestinian independence while providing some guidance and a measure of limitation.
In addition, Israel will continue to ally itself with Jordan -- so it will be the big guys Jordan and Israel who monitor and control any bad behavior on the part of the Palestinians. That is a huge shift from 1967.
And I wholeheartedly agree no one wants anything to do with Gaza. Most understandably.
Is anyone taking into consideration that both Egypt and Jordan took Gaza and Judea/Samaria (West Bank) in order to either annex them (Jordan) or simply dump unwanted Arabs into the area (Gaza)?
Egypt during the Peace Treaty would not take Gaza back from Israel mainly to stick Israel with the conditions which grew out of it, which turned Gaza as a weapon against Israel. Even with Israel totally withdrawing from Gaza in 2005, the reason Gaza exists continues to be clear.
Egypt has refused recently creating a Palestinian State in the Sinai Peninsula as a continuation of Gaza, considering the size of the land. I think the idea was mainly getting all Muslims from Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem, who wanted their own Muslim State to create it in that area.
Those who wanted to live under Israel's sovereignty and would not be a threat to the country would remain in Israel, Judea and Samaria. And there are many Muslim Arabs who do want to stay
with Israel, rather than a Palestine State.
Here are the problems:
Islam and its teachings
Hamas and the PLO/PA/Fatah charters which call for the destruction of Israel
Endless donations from Qatar, EU, Iran etc in order to help the two main organizations attempt to fulfill their charters.
Solutions:
One needs to put an end to any and all money going to Hamas/Gaza and the PA which only perpetuates the conflict.
The only way Egypt and Jordan agreed to a Peace Treaty with Israel is because their economy suffered from so many attacks on Israel and nearly brought both new countries down.
-------
Neither Hamas nor the PA see anything to lose, as the leaders and their families and friends live a luxurious life paid by the Arab countries and some Western countries as well.
Hizbollah is also a problem as it is weaponized by Iran.
So, Hamas, the PA/PLO, Hizbollah, Iran, and other players in the conflict are basically the ones keeping the conflict going and the possibility of Palestine State null and void.
Arafat did not sign the Oslo Accords in order to prepare the Arabs for Peace with Israel.
Arafat did what Mohammad did. He signed treaties and then when least expected he attacked Israel, as he did from 2000 on.
In looking for a solution, one must know what Islam stands for from Mohammad to Husseini, to Arafat, to Abbas, Mashall, the Ayatollah and other leaders who do follow Islamic teachings to the letter.
One State Solution which the Arabs/Muslims will agree on, allowing Israel to continue to exit.
How can the world help to arrive to it?
Israel has perpetuated the conflict by continuing its occupation of the West Bank. Gaza and East Jerusalem without ever giving any indication that it would withdraw and allow the creation of a truly sovereign Palestinian state. In fact, in all of its offers it has demanded the permanent control of borders, air space and territorial see and the basing of occupation troops in Palestine forever. With the transfer of its population to the occupied territories it has made the establishment of a Palestinian state impossible, so now either Israel continues to be an Apartheid state, or it gives the vote to all the people it controls and becomes a secular, democratic state.
Ignore list.
Eat sh!t and die, Spam Bot.
I had not thought of this as a possible solution...
I quite like the idea though with reservations...
Creating a semi autonomous region is ok but could be a 'short term' solution as there may be a call in the future for an 'independence'...
If the semi autonomous state were within Jordan then it would be Jordan who would do the 'monitoring' ... Sure, I would expect Israel to keep an eye on things but Israel could not 'monitor' within Jordan...
I had not thought of this as a possible solution...
I quite like the idea though with reservations...
Creating a semi autonomous region is ok but could be a 'short term' solution as there may be a call in the future for an 'independence'...
If the semi autonomous state were within Jordan then it would be Jordan who would do the 'monitoring' ... Sure, I would expect Israel to keep an eye on things but Israel could not 'monitor' within Jordan...
My hunch is since many Palestinians feel there is no difference between them and their Syrian and Jordanian brothers and sisters, one of two things will happen -- either Jordan eventually absorbs them all and the West Bank becomes permanently part of Jordan or the Palestinians actually get their shit together and achieve a peaceful independence or semi-independence.
It seems to me -- and I think you agree -- that the Palestinians have fewer grievances against Jordan than against Israel and it shifts the psychological battle off the Arab Muslim vs Jew-the-eternal-enemy paradigm. It also makes this sort of an internal Arab/Muslim alliance issue which puts a different spin on things. I suspect the strongly aligned Arab/Muslim world is heading for a deep split between the extremists and the more moderate.
The risk taken, of course, is that the Jordanians have to be secure enough that the Palestinians wouldn't try to pull another coup d'etat -- either violently or politically. The risk is that when the split happens the Palestinians will fall to the side of the extremists. BUT I think that is much less likely to happen if we can take them off the us-against-the-Jews line.
Israel and the international community would have to strongly support Jordan. The problem is I'm not sure what we could do to sweeten the pot for Jordan. She doesn't have enough incentives, yet, to got this route.
I had not thought of this as a possible solution...
I quite like the idea though with reservations...
Creating a semi autonomous region is ok but could be a 'short term' solution as there may be a call in the future for an 'independence'...
If the semi autonomous state were within Jordan then it would be Jordan who would do the 'monitoring' ... Sure, I would expect Israel to keep an eye on things but Israel could not 'monitor' within Jordan...
My hunch is since many Palestinians feel there is no difference between them and their Syrian and Jordanian brothers and sisters, one of two things will happen -- either Jordan eventually absorbs them all and the West Bank becomes permanently part of Jordan or the Palestinians actually get their shit together and achieve a peaceful independence or semi-independence.
It seems to me -- and I think you agree -- that the Palestinians have fewer grievances against Jordan than against Israel and it shifts the psychological battle off the Arab Muslim vs Jew-the-eternal-enemy paradigm. It also makes this sort of an internal Arab/Muslim alliance issue which puts a different spin on things. I suspect the strongly aligned Arab/Muslim world is heading for a deep split between the extremists and the more moderate.
The risk taken, of course, is that the Jordanians have to be secure enough that the Palestinians wouldn't try to pull another coup d'etat -- either violently or politically. The risk is that when the split happens the Palestinians will fall to the side of the extremists. BUT I think that is much less likely to happen if we can take them off the us-against-the-Jews line.
Israel and the international community would have to strongly support Jordan. The problem is I'm not sure what we could do to sweeten the pot for Jordan. She doesn't have enough incentives, yet, to got this route.
Yes,, I can see how this could work... I am not sure that either Palestinians or Israelis, perhaps more so Israel, would ever consider a solution...
However, what, exactly, are you proposing as the West Bank? Back to 1949 Armistice Line? To include East Jerusalem?
Interesting. I have now researched the 1979 Egypt-Israel peace agreement and can find nothing of the sort. Maybe you can help with a credible source/link?It was part of the 1979 peace agreement. I thought everyone knew that.
Just like Gaza.Because Egypt insisted that Jewish civilians leave the Sinai, more than 7,000 Israelis were uprooted from their homes and businesses, which they had spent years building in the desert. This was a physically and emotionally wrenching experience, particularly for the residents of Yamit, who had to be forcibly removed by soldiers from their homes.
Oh but wait, there's more:By turning over the Sinai to Egypt, Israel may have given up its only chance to become energy-independent. The Alma oil field in the southern Sinai, discovered and developed by Israel, was transferred to Egypt in November 1979. When Israel gave up this field, it had become the country's largest single source of energy, supplying half the country's energy needs. Israel, which estimated the value of untapped reserves in the Alma field at $100 billion, had projected that continued development there would make the country self-sufficient in energy by 1990.
In 1988, the Jewish State relinquished Taba — a resort built by Israel in what had been a barren desert area near Eilat — to Egypt. Taba's status had not been resolved by the Camp David Accords. When an international arbitration panel ruled in Cairo's favor on September 29, 1988, Israel turned the town over to Egypt.
That's funny. I read this document and find nothing whatsoever that backs your claim.
In a certain way, the 'New City' of Jerusalem is sort of already divided north of the Old City walls. They call it the 'seam line'. Not sure how defined it is south of the Old City walls. But you for sure know when you've crossed it as you walk outside the Old City on the north side. I think the Old City should be as it is, and as I believe I mentioned in the two state solution thread (this one is almost going the same way now), I wish that the Temple Mount would become more open to all. As it is now, Non-Muslims can only enter via one way during very restricted hours. Leaving the Temple Mount for a non-muslim is much easier.More or less what I would have been proposing in the two state solution. Land swaps for major Jewish built up areas.
Jerusalem, of course, will be the sticky point. Always has been. I just can't see letting the Old City go for the Jewish people. I just can't. I think it is imperative that Israel retain sovereignty over the Old City and the Holy Place. What I would like to see in an ideal situation would be for Jerusalem to be divided more-or-less on lines of ethnicity as much as possible, with an access corridor of some sort to provide Palestinian/Jordanian guarantee of access and worship at Haram al-Sharif. But I honestly don't know if that is geographically possible. I assume it is, if people have the will to do it. I mean, they do the whole divided Holy Place in Hebron now, why not in Jerusalem too.
In all honesty, this is about as productive as "Driving all the Jews into the Sea".Ethnically cleanse the Palestinians: send them to Madagascar.
Not at all.In all honesty, this is about as productive as "Driving all the Jews into the Sea".Ethnically cleanse the Palestinians: send them to Madagascar.
Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants." However it is mentioned how the aid to Egypt is important to Israel.Interesting. I have now researched the 1979 Egypt-Israel peace agreement and can find nothing of the sort. Maybe you can help with a credible source/link?
I think you have answered my question and yours quite well already. Nice work proving yours and monti's 'theory' incorrect for all to see.Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants."<snip>
What do the facts on the ground tell you?
I think you have answered my question and yours quite well already. Nice work proving yours and monti's 'theory' incorrect for all to see.Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants."<snip>
What do the facts on the ground tell you?
Light as a feather . . . .
Indeed, sucking up to Israel has always been part of the peace deal.I think you have answered my question and yours quite well already. Nice work proving yours and monti's 'theory' incorrect for all to see.Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants."<snip>
What do the facts on the ground tell you?
Light as a feather . . . .
Teddy cracks me up. He reminds me of Spicer. LOL
"The FY2008 Withholding of U.S. Military Aid. During consideration of the House version of the FY2008 State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations bill (H.R. 2764), lawmakers inserted new language that proposed to withhold $200 million in Foreign Military Financing assistance (FMF) to Egypt until the Secretary of State certifies that Egypt has taken concrete steps toward improving its human rights record, strengthening judicial independence, and curbing Palestinian smuggling along the Gaza border. "
http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/sipb/contrib/wikileaks-crs/wikileaks-crs-reports/RL33003.pdf
Indeed, sucking up to Israel has always been part of the peace deal.I think you have answered my question and yours quite well already. Nice work proving yours and monti's 'theory' incorrect for all to see.Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants."<snip>
What do the facts on the ground tell you?
Light as a feather . . . .
Teddy cracks me up. He reminds me of Spicer. LOL
"The FY2008 Withholding of U.S. Military Aid. During consideration of the House version of the FY2008 State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations bill (H.R. 2764), lawmakers inserted new language that proposed to withhold $200 million in Foreign Military Financing assistance (FMF) to Egypt until the Secretary of State certifies that Egypt has taken concrete steps toward improving its human rights record, strengthening judicial independence, and curbing Palestinian smuggling along the Gaza border. "
http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/sipb/contrib/wikileaks-crs/wikileaks-crs-reports/RL33003.pdf
Oooooo, you played the terrorist card.Indeed, sucking up to Israel has always been part of the peace deal.I think you have answered my question and yours quite well already. Nice work proving yours and monti's 'theory' incorrect for all to see.Well I couldn't find a source saying: "The US bribes Egypt to do what Israel wants."<snip>
What do the facts on the ground tell you?
Light as a feather . . . .
Teddy cracks me up. He reminds me of Spicer. LOL
"The FY2008 Withholding of U.S. Military Aid. During consideration of the House version of the FY2008 State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations bill (H.R. 2764), lawmakers inserted new language that proposed to withhold $200 million in Foreign Military Financing assistance (FMF) to Egypt until the Secretary of State certifies that Egypt has taken concrete steps toward improving its human rights record, strengthening judicial independence, and curbing Palestinian smuggling along the Gaza border. "
http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/sipb/contrib/wikileaks-crs/wikileaks-crs-reports/RL33003.pdf
Indeed, you're just incensed that Islamic terrorists are not given the credibility you wish for them.
