The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Toddsterpatriot]

Obviously Israel lost the 1948 war because they fighting was almost all around Jerusalem, and Israel achieved nothing.

Thanks.

Now use a real post war map. Not one you drew with crayons.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Israel stole Jerusalem and the West Bank from Palestine,

Palestine? Sweet!!!

Who were the elected leaders of this "Palestine" you speak of?
What was their currency? Who was in charge of their central bank?
What were the interest rates on their debt the day before their land was stolen?

You have any links to back you up?
Besides that cloud of bong smoke you keep pulling your info from?

Abbas is the temporary elected leader since the Israelis assassinated the previous Hamas president.

The currency of Palestine is the Palestine Pound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_pound.

Abbas is the temporary elected leader

I know he's old, but he wasn't their leader back in the 60s.

The currency of Palestine is the Palestine Pound.

Not when you claim something was stolen. Try again?

Leadership changes fast when invaded by a hostile country like the Zionists.

{... An Arab summit meeting in Cairo in 1964 led to the formation of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). A political umbrella organization of several Palestinian groups, the PLO thereafter consistently claimed to be the sole representative of all Palestinian people. Its first leader was Aḥmad Shuqayrī, a protégé of Egypt.
...
Several years before the creation of the PLO, a secret organization had been formed: the Palestine National Liberation Movement (Ḥarakat al-Taḥrīr al-Waṭanī al-Filasṭīnī), known from a reversal of its Arabic initials as Fatah. ...}

What was stolen was land, so currency has nothing at all to do with it.
Zionist murdered, looted, and stole hundreds of Arab villages from the native Palestinians.

{...
If one chief theme in the post-1948 pattern was embattled Israel and a second the hostility of its Arab neighbours, a third was the plight of the huge number of Arab refugees. The violent birth of Israel led to a major displacement of the Arab population, who either were driven out by Zionist military forces before May 15, 1948, or by the Israeli army after that date or fled for fear of violence by these forces. Many wealthy merchants and leading urban notables from Jaffa, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem fled to Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan, while the middle class tended to move to all-Arab towns such as Nāblus and Nazareth. The majority of fellahin ended up in refugee camps. More than 400 Arab villages disappeared, and Arab life in the coastal cities (especially Jaffa and Haifa) virtually disintegrated.
...}

Palestine - Occupation, Refugees, Conflict | Britannica

Palestine - Occupation, Refugees, Conflict: If one chief theme in the post-1948 pattern was embattled Israel and a second the hostility of its Arab neighbors, a third was the plight of the huge number of Arab refugees. The violent birth of Israel led to a major displacement of the Arab...

www.britannica.com

Leadership changes fast when invaded by a hostile country like the Zionists.

Especially in the 1920s.

What was stolen was land, so currency has nothing at all to do with it.

How can you steal land from a country that has no leaders and no currency?

Now, tell me more about those 100 US planes you smoked up.......

The Zionists stole homes from Arabs who should have been equally Israeli citizens.
Countries have nothing to do with that.

Countries have nothing to do with that.

You said the nation of Palestine was created in 1920.
But it had no leaders, no currency, no military.
Not in 1920. Not in 1930. Not in 1940. Not in 1948. Not today.

Only in your (drug warped) imagination.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Palestinians lived there for over 10,000 years.

I heard it was 1,000,000 years.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And the fact Charles Winters was not prosecuted for his obvious violations of law and treaty

What laws? What treaties? Link?

I already listed the laws, treaties, and British statements, so you clearly are just spamming.

What law did Winters violate? What treaty?

There was a UN embargo on arms to the Mideast participants in hostilities.
As a signature of the UN, that made it illegal under US law.

There was a UN embargo on arms to the Mideast participants in hostilities.

Hostilities? You mean when the couple of dozen Arabs invaded?

Now you said Israel got 50 bombers and 50 Mustangs from the US.
What did they really get? 3 or 4? LOL!

Liar.
The Israelis accumumulated hundreds of planes, none of which they could have obtained if not for the US secretly allowing them to.
They even started shooting down British observation planes once they had US Mustang, P-51 high altitude interceptors.

{...
Preceded by the Sherut Avir, the air wing of the Haganah, the Israeli Air Force was officially formed on May 28, 1948, shortly after Israel declared statehood and found itself under immediate attack from its Arab neighbors. At first, it was assembled from a hodge-podge collection of civilian aircraft commandeered or donated and converted to military use. A variety of obsolete and surplus ex-World War II combat aircraft were quickly sourced by various means – both legal and illegal – to supplement this fleet. The backbone of the IAF consisted of 25 Avia S-199s (purchased from Czechoslovakia, essentially Czechoslovak-built Messerschmitt Bf 109s) and 60 Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk IXEs, the first of which, "Israel 1" was locally assembled from British abandoned spare parts and a salvaged engine from an Egyptian Spitfire with most of the rest purchased from Czechoslovakia.[4] Some spitfires were ferried from Žatec base code-named "Zebra" where pilots also received preliminary flight training, while others were transported by sea. Creativity and resourcefulness were the early foundations of Israeli military success in the air, rather than technology (which, at the inception of the IAF, was generally inferior to that used by Israel's adversaries). Many of the first IAF's pilots in 1948 were foreign volunteers (both Jewish and non-Jewish) and World War II veterans, who wanted to collaborate with Israel's struggle for its independence. The IAF's humble beginnings made its first air victories particularly impressive and noteworthy.

Similarly the Air Transport Command begun its existence as the Panamanian registered Lineos Aeros de Panama Society Anonyme or LAPSA acquired C-46 and C-47 aircraft.[5] Of the 607 IAF servicemen who served in the IAF during the War of Independence, over 414 of them were volunteers from overseas.[6]

Israel's new fighter arm first went into action on May 29, 1948, assisting the efforts to halt the Egyptian advance from Gaza northwards. Four newly arrived Avia S-199s, flown by Lou Lenart, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman and Eddie Cohen, struck Egyptian forces near Isdud. Although damage was minimal, two aircraft were lost and Cohen killed, the attack nevertheless achieved its goal and the Egyptians stopped. The Avias were back in action on May 30, attacking Jordanian forces near Tulkarem, losing another aircraft in the process.[7][8] After un-assembled planes were strafed on the ground on May 30 at Ekron airfield the fighters were moved to makeshift strip located around the current Herzliya Airport. The airfield was used as it was a bit back from the front-lines, and was clandestine since it was a purpose built strip, that was constructed after the beginning of hostilities, in between the orange orchards around Herzliya, and didn't appear on published maps.


A 1949 aerial view of Ramat David air force base, taken from a B-17.
The Israeli Air Force scored its first aerial victories on June 3 when Modi Alon, flying Avia D.112, shot down two Egyptian Air Force DC-3s which had just bombed Tel Aviv.[8][9][10] The first dogfight against enemy fighters took place a few days later, on June 8, when Gideon Lichtaman shot down an Egyptian Spitfire.[11] During these initial operations, the squadron operated with a few planes versus almost complete Arab theater Air supremacy and the airplanes were parked dispersed between the orange trees. The fighters were moved in October to Hatzor Airbase from the Herzliya strip in due to its unsuitability in rainy conditions, probable loss of clandestine status, moving front lines which made former British bases safe for use, and a shift in the balance of air superiority towards the Israelis.[12][13][14]

As the war progressed, more and more aircraft were procured, including Boeing B-17s,[15] Bristol Beaufighters, de Havilland Mosquitoes and P-51D Mustangs, leading to a shift in the balance of power. Although the IAF had never secured complete aerial supremacy, by the end of the war it had proven decisive in the air.[16][17]

The war also saw the IAF clash with Britain's Royal Air Force. During the summer and autumn of 1948 RAF photo-reconnaissance De Havilland Mosquitos of No. 13 Squadron RAF flew routine reconnaissance overflights over Israel. These high-altitude flights remained unchallenged until Israel acquired the Mustang. On November 20, 1948 one such reconnaissance aircraft was spotted over the Galilee and was shot down by Wayne Peake, crashing in the Mediterranean off Ashdod.[18][19] The IAF and RAF clashed again on January 7, 1949, during Operation Horev, when four RAF Spitfires were shot down, followed by a Hawker Tempest later that day.[20][21]
...}

The Israelis accumumulated hundreds of planes

Thousands!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you even have a link to prove this ?

Here's his link.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Outcomes
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: These are very good issues to explore.

By the end of the war Israel had "control" of 78% of Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Not exactly true, but let's not get bogged down in the fine points of reality. You are actually talking about ≈78% of the original ≈23% of the Territory under the Mandate (West of the Jordan River). Jordan actually was allocated the lions share of territory; ≈78% of the entire territory that was subject to the Mandate.

Under its "Self-Determination" Israel declared independence and assumed the 56% of the territory West of the Jordan River under the Partition Plan in A/RES/181 (II) → adopted by the General Assembly.

On the cessation of hostilities in 1949, yes - Israel was responsible for more territory than the Partition Plan. However, the Arab Higher Committee had already rejected their allocated portion. The Arab Palestinians did not relinquish any sovereignty because they never had any sovereignty. They rejected their opportunity for Self-Governance. What was not placed under the jurisdiction of Israel, was placed under the jurisdiction of an adjacent Arab State. Of what is called the West Bank, Jordan annexed all of it - NOT Israel.

What was the process of gaining that control?

(COMMENT)

This answer comes in two parts:

◈ Self-Determination on the recommendation adopted by the General Assembly.​

​

◈ Armistice Arrangements agreed upon by Israel and the adjacent countries of the Arab League.​

What was the meaning of control?

(COMMENT)

There is actually no binding or legal definition under International Law as to the specific meaning of either: 1) control -- or -- 2) territorial integrity.

In the context of the conflict, after the Armistice Arrangements of 1949, territorial control was ground truth in two parts:

◈ External Territory (to a party bound by the agreement) that was actually placed under the authority of International Law administered by one party to the Armistice.​

​

◈ Sovereign Territory (boundary delimitation) under the jurisdiction exclusive to the authority within a State that is considered Independent.​

This is actually quite important in concept because under International Law:

Occupation is a method of acquiring title to territory, derived from occupation in Roman Law. Only territory that is not subject to any sovereignty (terra nullius) may be acquired by occupation. In 1988, when the King of Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank and Jerusalem, the territory became, in perspective "terra nullius," and in the hands of Israeli control. However, Israel has only declared sovereignty in Jerusalem relative to the abandon territory under former Jordanian control.​

Now, I know you are going to jump-up and recite the mantra: "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"

This is all worn out. Peace Treaties the 1948 Conflict, as mentioned in the Armistice Agreements, had not been agreed upon. So, in fact, the 1967 Conflict was a continuation of the 1948 Conflict initiated by the Arab League. Thus, 1967 was still a defensive action predicated by the Arab League Forces on the frontier which consituted the Activation of Article 51 (restore international peace and security) to neutralize the Arab League threatening use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of Israel [Article 2(4)].

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Not exactly true, but let's not get bogged down in the fine points of reality. You are actually talking about ≈78% of the original ≈23% of the Territory under the Mandate (West of the Jordan River). Jordan actually was allocated the lions share of territory; ≈78% of the entire territory that was subject to the Mandate.

OK Mr. Irrelevance, what does this have to do with anything?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Not exactly true, but let's not get bogged down in the fine points of reality. You are actually talking about ≈78% of the original ≈23% of the Territory under the Mandate (West of the Jordan River). Jordan actually was allocated the lions share of territory; ≈78% of the entire territory that was subject to the Mandate.

OK Mr. Irrelevance, what does this have to do with anything?

what does this have to do with anything?

He doesn't need me to answer for him, but.....

"By the end of the war Israel had "control" of 78% of Palestine"

This proved your math wrong.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Under its "Self-Determination" Israel declared independence and assumed the 56% of the territory West of the Jordan River under the Partition Plan in A/RES/181 (II) → adopted by the General Assembly.

No it didn't.

1. Resolution 181 was never implemented. There was no 56%.
2. Israel never declared those to be its borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

On the cessation of hostilities in 1949, yes - Israel was responsible for more territory than the Partition Plan. However, the Arab Higher Committee had already rejected their allocated portion.

They rejected partition. That changed nothing.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What was not placed under the jurisdiction of Israel, was placed under the jurisdiction of an adjacent Arab State.

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

 

[toastman]

Not exactly true, but let's not get bogged down in the fine points of reality. You are actually talking about ≈78% of the original ≈23% of the Territory under the Mandate (West of the Jordan River). Jordan actually was allocated the lions share of territory; ≈78% of the entire territory that was subject to the Mandate.

OK Mr. Irrelevance, what does this have to do with anything?

Why do you bother posting here if every single time your lies are exposed, you just end up asking irrelevant questions that have no merit to the conversation?
Israel is a country with defined territory and international borders . Palestine isnt. Deal with it .

 

[toastman]

What was not placed under the jurisdiction of Israel, was placed under the jurisdiction of an adjacent Arab State.

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

And the dancing has begun !!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yes, the goal of the Jews in the 1948 war was the invasion of the West Bank,

So when the Jews lost, they ended up with more land than they started with.

Just like Germany in WWI and WWII, right?

the Zionists were totally defeated and had to fall back on the UN partition instead.

But they didn't. You should post all 3 maps.....just to prove your claim.

Consistently wrong.
After the 1948 war, Israel ended up with the exact same amount of land as before, the UN partition.

With the 3 maps, the first map was both before and after the 1948 war.

The other maps represent the advances by Israel in the 1980s and then very recent thefts of the West Banks for the construction of the illegal wall in the West Bank.

After the 1948 war, Israel ended up with the exact same amount of land as before, the UN partition.

Show me.

Post the partition map and the after war map.

Here is the pre-1948 war UN partition.

Here is the map after the 1948 war was over, and then the changes in 1967.

Obviously Israel lost the 1948 war because they fighting was almost all around Jerusalem, and Israel achieved nothing.

Still looking for a better map? LOL!

 

[Hollie]

Under its "Self-Determination" Israel declared independence and assumed the 56% of the territory West of the Jordan River under the Partition Plan in A/RES/181 (II) → adopted by the General Assembly.

No it didn't.

1. Resolution 181 was never implemented. There was no 56%.
2. Israel never declared those to be its borders.

Yes it did.

1. Res. 181 being implemented or not is irrelevant. There was 56% assumption of territory in spite of your denials,

2. Israel's declared borders have been established by treaty with adjoining nations in spite of your denial of the existence of those treaties.

 

[Hollie]

What was not placed under the jurisdiction of Israel, was placed under the jurisdiction of an adjacent Arab State.

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

Those who had the authority to place jurisdiction.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Now your just playing with the question. Arab Palestinians use the Pre-June 4th Line (Green Line) .

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

(COMMENT)

The 1949 "Armistice Agreements" as the starting point; knowing today that they have been superseded.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Now your just playing with the question. Arab Palestinians use the Pre-June 4th Line (Green Line) .

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

(COMMENT)

The 1949 "Armistice Agreements" as the starting point; knowing today that they have been superseded.

Most Respectfully,
R

Huh?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yes, the goal of the Jews in the 1948 war was the invasion of the West Bank,

So when the Jews lost, they ended up with more land than they started with.

Just like Germany in WWI and WWII, right?

the Zionists were totally defeated and had to fall back on the UN partition instead.

But they didn't. You should post all 3 maps.....just to prove your claim.

Consistently wrong.
After the 1948 war, Israel ended up with the exact same amount of land as before, the UN partition.

With the 3 maps, the first map was both before and after the 1948 war.

The other maps represent the advances by Israel in the 1980s and then very recent thefts of the West Banks for the construction of the illegal wall in the West Bank.

After the 1948 war, Israel ended up with the exact same amount of land as before, the UN partition.

Show me.

Post the partition map and the after war map.

Here is the pre-1948 war UN partition.

Here is the map after the 1948 war was over, and then the changes in 1967.

Obviously Israel lost the 1948 war because they fighting was almost all around Jerusalem, and Israel achieved nothing.

Obviously Israel lost the 1948 war because they fighting was almost all around Jerusalem, and Israel achieved nothing.

I know you're still looking for a map.

Maybe this will help you?

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Weird. It disagrees with your claim that "Israel achieved nothing".

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What was not placed under the jurisdiction of Israel, was placed under the jurisdiction of an adjacent Arab State.

Who had the authority to place jurisdiction?

The UN RECOGNIZED and authorized the state of Israel and no amount of you whining and complaining will change that,