The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[JoeB131]

So you do take special pills to stay stupid.

Wrong.
That is the Iris Chang version, which has no relationship to reality.
For example, in her book, "The Rape of Nanking", she posts an article from a Japanese newspaper, and claims it is about a contest over who could behead the most POWs with a sword.
When you actually read the Japanese script however, it says that the Japanese were disgusted by firearms, and preferred to fight with a sword instead of a gun, because it was more honorable.
And the contest was about how many enemy soldiers they killed in battle, not execute as POWs.
So basically, Iris Chang had no idea at all what really happened, and just lied.

Actually, the two officers were put on trial after the war, numerous witnesses testified they beheaded POW's, and they were promptly executed.

Hundred man killing contest - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other soldiers and historians have noted the unlikelihood of the lieutenants' alleged heroics, which entailed killing enemy after enemy in fierce hand-to-hand combat.[4] Noda himself, on returning to his hometown, admitted this during a speech:

Actually, I didn't kill more than four or five people in hand-to-hand combat ... We'd face an enemy trench that we'd captured, and when we called out, "Ni, Lai-Lai!" (You, come here!), the Chinese soldiers were so stupid, they'd rush toward us all at once. Then we'd line them up and cut them down, from one end of the line to the other. I was praised for having killed a hundred people, but actually, almost all of them were killed in this way. The two of us did have a contest, but afterwards. I was often asked whether it was a big deal, and I said it was no big deal ...[7]

Wrong again.
While 6 million deaths of Jews is incredible, once you realize the WWII death toll was over 50 million, and mostly civilians, then it is not significant any more.
You just are not putting anything into perspective.

Actually, what the Japanese did in China was much worse... but since the Jews run Hollywood, we get all sorts of movies about the Holocaust and the only movie I've seen about the Rape of Nanking was one where they showed how white people were slightly inconvenienced.

Not in the least.
Iris Chang was not at all respected or a scholar.
Her work was universally ridiculed except by those using her for propaganda purposes.

Iris Chang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Her second book, The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II (1997),[9] was published on the 60th anniversary of the Nanking Massacre and was motivated in part by her own grandparents' stories about their escape from the massacre. It documents atrocities committed against Chinese by forces of the Imperial Japanese Army during the Second Sino-Japanese War, and includes interviews with victims. The Rape of Nanking remained on the New York Times Bestseller list for 10 weeks.[10] Based on the book, an American documentary film, Nanking, was released in 2007.

Success as an author made Iris Chang a public figure. The Rape of Nanking placed her in great demand as a speaker and as an interview subject, and, more broadly, as a spokesperson for the viewpoint that the Japanese government had not done enough to compensate victims of their invasion of China. In one often-mentioned incident (as reported by The Times of London):

...she confronted the Japanese Ambassador to the United States on television, demanded an apology and expressed her dissatisfaction with his mere acknowledgement "that really unfortunate things happened, acts of violence were committed by members of the Japanese military". "It is because of these types of wording and the vagueness of such expressions that Chinese people, I think, are infuriated," was her reaction.[13]

Chang's visibility as a public figure increased with her final work, The Chinese in America. After her death, she became the subject of tributes from fellow writers. Mo Hayder dedicated a novel to her. Reporter Richard Rongstad eulogized her as "Iris Chang lit a flame and passed it to others and we should not allow that flame to be extinguished."

In 2007, the documentary Nanking was dedicated to Chang, as well as the Chinese victims of Nanking.

"The Man Who Ended History", a story in The Paper Managerie by Ken Liu about uncovering the history of Unit 731, is dedicated to the memory of Chang.[14]

R.F. Kuang's debut novel, The Poppy War, is dedicated to Iris Chang.[15]

Iris Chang Park in San Jose, that opened in November 2019, is a municipal park dedicated to Chang.[16][17]

That is totally ignorant.
What actually happened at Nanking is that tens of thousands of retreating Khang Kai Shek troops tried to blend into the civilian population, and continued to shoot Japanese, instead of honorably surrendering.
Making Nanking into an insurgency, and NOT the massacre of innocents claimed by liars like Iris Chang.

First, it's Chiang Kai-shek (Giles Wade Transliteration). Secondly, it was a massacre of civilians.

And while I do not like religions or have any connection to Mormons, they are one of the most honorable of the religions anyone could pick.
The claim Joseph Smith was rapping teens likely is a lie, as Mormons are more sexually repressed than any other religion I know of.
Polygamy is not underage sex, but more than one wife, exactly as the Bible describes, and common in Judaism until recently.

Mormons are scum.

Joseph Smith married numerous teenage girls among his 34 wives. He did what all cult leaders did... used his position to get sex from less smart people.

The difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh? Original and Extra-Crispy.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Actually, the two officers were put on trial after the war, numerous witnesses testified they beheaded POW's, and they were promptly executed.

Hundred man killing contest - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other soldiers and historians have noted the unlikelihood of the lieutenants' alleged heroics, which entailed killing enemy after enemy in fierce hand-to-hand combat.[4] Noda himself, on returning to his hometown, admitted this during a speech:

Actually, what the Japanese did in China was much worse... but since the Jews run Hollywood, we get all sorts of movies about the Holocaust and the only movie I've seen about the Rape of Nanking was one where they showed how white people were slightly inconvenienced.

Iris Chang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Her second book, The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II (1997),[9] was published on the 60th anniversary of the Nanking Massacre and was motivated in part by her own grandparents' stories about their escape from the massacre. It documents atrocities committed against Chinese by forces of the Imperial Japanese Army during the Second Sino-Japanese War, and includes interviews with victims. The Rape of Nanking remained on the New York Times Bestseller list for 10 weeks.[10] Based on the book, an American documentary film, Nanking, was released in 2007.

Success as an author made Iris Chang a public figure. The Rape of Nanking placed her in great demand as a speaker and as an interview subject, and, more broadly, as a spokesperson for the viewpoint that the Japanese government had not done enough to compensate victims of their invasion of China. In one often-mentioned incident (as reported by The Times of London):


Chang's visibility as a public figure increased with her final work, The Chinese in America. After her death, she became the subject of tributes from fellow writers. Mo Hayder dedicated a novel to her. Reporter Richard Rongstad eulogized her as "Iris Chang lit a flame and passed it to others and we should not allow that flame to be extinguished."

In 2007, the documentary Nanking was dedicated to Chang, as well as the Chinese victims of Nanking.

"The Man Who Ended History", a story in The Paper Managerie by Ken Liu about uncovering the history of Unit 731, is dedicated to the memory of Chang.[14]

R.F. Kuang's debut novel, The Poppy War, is dedicated to Iris Chang.[15]

Iris Chang Park in San Jose, that opened in November 2019, is a municipal park dedicated to Chang.[16][17]

First, it's Chiang Kai-shek (Giles Wade Transliteration). Secondly, it was a massacre of civilians.

<<< Actually, the two officers were put on trial after the war, numerous witnesses testified they beheaded POW's, and they were promptly executed. >>>

Their "trial"??? You mean the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, right? They had no normal trial with an impartial jury, and the "numerous witnesses" would have testified that the two officers were aliens from Mars if asked to do so. Even the Tokyo Tribunal declined to prosecute the two officers, so questionable was the "evidence" against them.

In chapter 12 of The Nanking Atrocity, historian Joshua Fogel says that no balanced historian can accept the killing-contest story as accurate:

Fourth Generation Chinese argue that racism—by which they mean the Japanese troops’ dehumanization of the Chinese people—was indeed an essential part of the assault on China. The piece of evidence usually cited is the infamous 100-man killing contest, in which two Japanese soldiers allegedly vied to see who could first slay 100 Chinese en route to Nanking. Many have questioned the veracity of this story, and not only arch right-wingers in Japan. See Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi’s chapter 6 in the present volume. But the Japanese press in November-December 1937 did give the story considerable play, and the soldiers did receive death sentences at the postwar Nanking War Crimes Tribunal; so, as a result, anti-Japanese Chinese believe the story today. But despite the guilty verdict, to accept this story as true and accurate requires a leap of faith that no balanced historian can make. (pp. 279-280; p. 172 in some editions)

Yes, we get it that you love Iris Chang and that you are diehard Mao apologist. You've made that clear.

 

[JoeB131]

Their "trial"??? You mean the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, right? They had no normal trial with an impartial jury, and the "numerous witnesses" would have testified that the two officers were aliens from Mars if asked to do so. Even the Tokyo Tribunal declined to prosecute the two officers, so questionable was the "evidence" against them.

The Tokyo tribunal was for the top leaders who instigated Japan's war against humanity.

Not for the low level war criminals like these two shmucks.

I do like Iris Chang, her early death was very sad. I recognize Mao was a ruthless bastard, but so was George Washington. And both are revered in their countries today.

The biggest problem was that not enough Nazis or Japanese were executed after the war.

 

[Dayton3]

The claim that the Japanese army killed 300,000 people in Nanking, China, in 1937 became widely accepted with the publication of Chinese author Iris Chang’s book The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II in 1997.

Before we discuss this matter, one thing must be made clear: Killing 20 civilians and/or POWs, much less thousands or hundreds of thousands, is a war crime, and those who take part in such crimes should be severely punished. There is no credible doubt that many of the Japanese soldiers who fought in Nanking committed war crimes and deserved to be punished. What is a “massacre”? I think the killing of “just” a few dozen innocent people constitutes a massacre or an atrocity. I believe that about 40,000 people—soldiers plus civilians—were wrongfully killed in Nanking, so I have no problem with the term Nanking Massacre to describe the crime.

With these stipulations understood, let us look at some facts regarding the 300,000 figure and Chang’s book. The points below do not address all the problems with the 300,000 figure, but they are a decent introduction to the problems with Chang’s case.

* To provide some context and perspective, even if one assumes that the 300,000 figure is correct, it should be pointed out that the Chinese Nationalists killed at least 400,000 people in Xuzhou in 1938. When the Nationalists were retreating from Xuzhou in June 1938, they purposely breached the southern dyke of the Yellow River in order to flood the Japanese’s path to Wuhan (even though the Japanese were not advancing), and in so doing they killed a bare minimum of 400,000 civilians (Peter Harmsen, Storm Clouds Over the Pacific, 1931-1941, Casemate Publishers, 2018, locs. 1895-1907). This is still the largest, deadliest act of environmental warfare in history.

Some scholars conclude that at least 500,000 innocent civilians were killed in the Yellow River flood, calling 500,000 “the lowest estimate” (Diana Lary, "Drowned Earth: The Strategic Breaching of the Yellow River Dyke, 1938," War in History. April 1, 2001, pp. 191–207, SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals). Why didn’t FDR condemn this atrocity? Why haven’t the Nationalist Chinese been subjected to the same kind of withering criticism that the Japanese have endured over Nanking? Why isn’t there a memorial at Xuzhou to honor the 400,000-plus victims of Chinese Nationalist barbarism?

Because the action by the Chinese nationalists was part of their war effort. The massacre of civilians in Nanking by the Japanese most certainly was not.

 

[mikegriffith1]

The Tokyo tribunal was for the top leaders who instigated Japan's war against humanity.

Not for the low level war criminals like these two shmucks.

I do like Iris Chang, her early death was very sad. I recognize Mao was a ruthless bastard, but so was George Washington. And both are revered in their countries today.

The biggest problem was that not enough Nazis or Japanese were executed after the war.

No, no, no, it is plain nutty to even imply that George Washington was as ruthless as Mao Tse Tung. That is crazy.

I know lots of Chinese, partly because one of my son's married a Chinese national who later became a citizen, and not one of them thinks highly of Mao. Not one.

The Tokyo Tribunal did look into the case of the two officers and passed on it. The Nanking Tribunal was an exercise in blind revenge in far too many cases.

And, lo and behold, I actually agree with you that not enough Nazi and Japanese war criminals were executed after the war. Too many innocent or minimally guilty Germans and Japanese were prosecuted, while far too many truly guilty Germans and Japanese got off scot-free, especially among the Japanese officers who brutalized American and Allied POWs.

 

[JoeB131]

No, no, no, it is plain nutty to even imply that George Washington was as ruthless as Mao Tse Tung. That is crazy.

My Native American ancestors would beg to differ. So, I imagine, would the slaves on Geo. Washington's plantation.

Hey, check this out, they are George's false teeth. Unlike popular legends about "wooden teeth", George actually had teeth that were extracted from slaves.

Of course, if they talked about that in History Class, you guys would be whining about Critical Race Theory and making white kids hate themselves.

I know lots of Chinese, partly because one of my son's married a Chinese national who later became a citizen, and not one of them thinks highly of Mao. Not one.

I'm currently dating a Chinese woman... And most Chinese have a different opinion of Mao. Mostly that he liberated China from foreign domination and made her a great power.

Unlike Stalin, who the Soviets denounced almost as soon as he was in the Ground, Mao is still well regarded.

Side note, I've been teaching myself Chinese and found out that "Mao" translates to "Cat". This could explain a lot.

The Tokyo Tribunal did look into the case of the two officers and passed on it. The Nanking Tribunal was an exercise in blind revenge in far too many cases.

The Tokyo Tribunal worked on the assumption the war began at Pearl Harbor, not the Marco Polo Bridge. These two bastards admitted that most of the people they beheaded weren't active combatants..

And, lo and behold, I actually agree with you that not enough Nazi and Japanese war criminals were executed after the war. Too many innocent or minimally guilty Germans and Japanese were prosecuted, while far too many truly guilty Germans and Japanese got off scot-free, especially among the Japanese officers who brutalized American and Allied POWs.

OH MY GOD, THEY DID BAD STUFF TO WHITE PEOPLE!!!! Yes, I can see why that upsets your Racist Mormon Ass.
You don't see why slaughtering thousands of unarmed civilians is worse than mistreating a POW.

The real problem with the latter trial is that Japan never signed the Geneva Conventions, but we prosecuted them under it as if they had. Combined that with the mentality that the Japanese believed in never surrendering, and saw Americans and Allies who did as dishonorable, and you can see the potential for abuse.

But the bastards at Nanking were much worse and should have been executed.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I thought it would be worthwhile to resurrect this thread on the Nanking Massacre, given certain comments that one of our resident anti-Semitic Israel haters and Mao apologists has been making on the topic recently. I am also reviving this thread because I ran across some recent articles by Asia scholar Paul De Vries on the Nanking Massacre, most of which were published after this thread ended in late 2022.

To provide a quick recap, Iris Chang's 1997 book The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, which was widely promoted by China's repressive government, has been cut to pieces by Asia scholars. Most of the photos in Chang's book have been exposed as fakes, as photos that had nothing to do with the event. Virtually no one denies that the Japanese army killed thousands of civilians and committed numerous rapes and other crimes when they conquered the city of Nanking (aka Nanjing) starting in December 1937, but Chang, repeating both Nationalist and Communist Chinese propaganda, claimed that the Japanese killed over 300,000 civilians in Nanking, a physical impossibility and a death toll far greater than the numbers given in the primary sources (most of which were ardently anti-Japanese, by the way).

The Nanking Massacre was a terrible crime. There is no need to muddy the waters by severely exaggerating the death toll and by presenting photos that had nothing to do with the event. Chang's book was part of a long-standing and ongoing effort by the Chinese government to smear Japan. The Japanese army's conduct during WWII was atrocious in far too many cases, but the Chinese armies, both Nationalist and Communist, were often just as brutal.

Here are three of Paul De Vries' articles on the Nanking Massacre:

Nanjing Massacre: Where Did the 300,000 Death Toll Come From? | JAPAN Forward

The 300,000 civilian death toll was credited to an anonymous source, employed by a known propagandist, and not even made in relation to the Nanjing Massacre.

japan-forward.com

'The Rape of Nanking': Looking For the Spirit of 'Rashomon' | JAPAN Forward

One need not know much about the "Nanjing Massacre" to harbor doubts about the claims made within Iris Chang's 1997 book, "The Rape of Nanking."

japan-forward.com

[Bookmark] Ignoring Evidence of Fewer Nanjing Massacre Victims, the West Chooses to Believe China | JAPAN Forward

The Chinese government claims 300,000 died, but Nanjing University’s Dr. Lewis S.C. Smythe and Chinese field workers in 1938 found only 2,400 had been killed due to soldier violence, 4,200 taken away, and 850 died as a result of military action.

japan-forward.com

Here's an excerpt from the first linked article, "Nanjing Massacre: Where Did the 300,000 Death Toll Come From?":

As anyone who has ever been a part of a crowd within a large sporting arena can attest, 300,000 is an extraordinary mass of humanity. It is the equivalent of five packed-out Saitama Stadiums, four Old Traffords, three Melbourne Cricket Grounds, or fifteen Madison Square Gardens. That figure has come to be associated with the civilian death toll during the initial six weeks of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing, China, which commenced on December 13, 1937. It is insisted upon by Chinese President Xi Jinping and carved into stone at the Memorial Hall in Nanjing.

On its face, the 300,000 figure seems farcical. What is the origin of that stated total?

The 300,000 figure is credited to a single reference by an unnamed source within first a telegram, and then a publication. The title of the publication is What War Means: The Japanese Terror in China. It was published by Victor Gollancz Ltd, London, in May 1938, a few short months after the occupation of Nanjing began. . . .

What War Means was compiled by Harold J Timperley. He was an Australian national and China Correspondent of The Manchester Guardian, but he wore additional hats. In "An Overview of Propaganda Operations of the International Information Division of the Central Propaganda Bureau of the Nationalist Party from 1938 to April 1941," a document archived in Taiwan, it clearly states that What War Means was propaganda produced in the interests of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and his ruling Kuomintang (KMT). . . .

The page 13 reference is a summation by Timperley. It reads: "At least 300,000 Chinese military casualties for the Central China campaign alone and a like number of civilian casualties were suffered". . . .

The telegram reference of 300,000 was written by Timperley. It reads, "… in Nanking and elsewhere … [Not] less than three hundred thousand Chinese civilians slaughtered, many cases [in] cold blood."

The 300,000 figure, therefore, refers not solely to Nanjing nor even Nanjing and its surrounds, but the landmass between Shanghai and Nanjing. The two cities are situated 270 kilometers (168 miles) apart. The single foreign observer is not named. And no details are provided on the methodology.

In short, 300,000 is a guess rather than an estimate. Or perhaps more accurately, a large round number pulled out of the air.

Ironically, there are many references contained within What War Means that cast doubt on common perceptions concerning Nanjing.

The Nanjing Massacre was predominantly of Chinese soldiers who discarded their uniforms and attempted to blend in with civilians within a safety zone. . . .

A figure of around 10,000 total civilian deaths is supported by the present available evidence. A sociological survey conducted by Dr Lewis SC Smythe, an American professor of sociology at Nanjing University in early 1938, established tallies of 2,400 killed and 4,200 taken away and not yet returned.

Chinese efforts to tabulate the names of victims have reached a total of 10,664. To this, we can add an account provided by Timperley from a "foreign member of the University faculty" (quite possibly an estimate by Smythe prior to his survey) on January 25, 1938. It reads: "Evidences from burials indicate that close to 40,000 unarmed persons were killed within and near the walls of Nanking, of whom some 30% had never been soldiers." This estimate of around 12,000 is broadly consistent with both the Smythe report and Chinese tabulations.

Additionally, there is the following from John Rabe, the German-born Chairman of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone on January 28, 1938, concerning civilian deaths. "There are many hundreds, if not thousands, of cases where the wage earner has either been taken away or killed," Rabe states. "Hundreds, if not thousands" clearly suggests a figure for wage-earning men in the low thousands at best.

 

[gipper]

I thought it would be worthwhile to resurrect this thread on the Nanking Massacre, given certain comments that one of our resident anti-Semitic Israel haters and Mao apologists has been making on the topic recently. I am also reviving this thread because I ran across some recent articles by Asia scholar Paul De Vries on the Nanking Massacre, most of which were published after this thread ended in late 2022.

To provide a quick recap, Iris Chang's 1997 book The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, which was widely promoted by China's repressive government, has been cut to pieces by Asia scholars. Most of the photos in Chang's book have been exposed as fakes, as photos that had nothing to do with the event. Virtually no one denies that the Japanese army killed thousands of civilians and committed numerous rapes and other crimes when they conquered the city of Nanking (aka Nanjing) starting in December 1937, but Chang, repeating both Nationalist and Communist Chinese propaganda, claimed that the Japanese killed over 300,000 civilians in Nanking, a physical impossibility and a death toll far greater than the numbers given in the primary sources (most of which were ardently anti-Japanese, by the way).

The Nanking Massacre was a terrible crime. There is no need to muddy the waters by severely exaggerating the death toll and by presenting photos that had nothing to do with the event. Chang's book was part of a long-standing and ongoing effort by the Chinese government to smear Japan. The Japanese army's conduct during WWII was atrocious in far too many cases, but the Chinese armies, both Nationalist and Communist, were often just as brutal.

Here are three of Paul De Vries' articles on the Nanking Massacre:

Nanjing Massacre: Where Did the 300,000 Death Toll Come From? | JAPAN Forward

The 300,000 civilian death toll was credited to an anonymous source, employed by a known propagandist, and not even made in relation to the Nanjing Massacre.

japan-forward.com

'The Rape of Nanking': Looking For the Spirit of 'Rashomon' | JAPAN Forward

One need not know much about the "Nanjing Massacre" to harbor doubts about the claims made within Iris Chang's 1997 book, "The Rape of Nanking."

japan-forward.com

[Bookmark] Ignoring Evidence of Fewer Nanjing Massacre Victims, the West Chooses to Believe China | JAPAN Forward

The Chinese government claims 300,000 died, but Nanjing University’s Dr. Lewis S.C. Smythe and Chinese field workers in 1938 found only 2,400 had been killed due to soldier violence, 4,200 taken away, and 850 died as a result of military action.

japan-forward.com

Here's an excerpt from the first linked article, "Nanjing Massacre: Where Did the 300,000 Death Toll Come From?":

As anyone who has ever been a part of a crowd within a large sporting arena can attest, 300,000 is an extraordinary mass of humanity. It is the equivalent of five packed-out Saitama Stadiums, four Old Traffords, three Melbourne Cricket Grounds, or fifteen Madison Square Gardens. That figure has come to be associated with the civilian death toll during the initial six weeks of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing, China, which commenced on December 13, 1937. It is insisted upon by Chinese President Xi Jinping and carved into stone at the Memorial Hall in Nanjing.

On its face, the 300,000 figure seems farcical. What is the origin of that stated total?

The 300,000 figure is credited to a single reference by an unnamed source within first a telegram, and then a publication. The title of the publication is What War Means: The Japanese Terror in China. It was published by Victor Gollancz Ltd, London, in May 1938, a few short months after the occupation of Nanjing began. . . .

What War Means was compiled by Harold J Timperley. He was an Australian national and China Correspondent of The Manchester Guardian, but he wore additional hats. In "An Overview of Propaganda Operations of the International Information Division of the Central Propaganda Bureau of the Nationalist Party from 1938 to April 1941," a document archived in Taiwan, it clearly states that What War Means was propaganda produced in the interests of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and his ruling Kuomintang (KMT). . . .

The page 13 reference is a summation by Timperley. It reads: "At least 300,000 Chinese military casualties for the Central China campaign alone and a like number of civilian casualties were suffered". . . .

The telegram reference of 300,000 was written by Timperley. It reads, "… in Nanking and elsewhere … [Not] less than three hundred thousand Chinese civilians slaughtered, many cases [in] cold blood."

The 300,000 figure, therefore, refers not solely to Nanjing nor even Nanjing and its surrounds, but the landmass between Shanghai and Nanjing. The two cities are situated 270 kilometers (168 miles) apart. The single foreign observer is not named. And no details are provided on the methodology.

In short, 300,000 is a guess rather than an estimate. Or perhaps more accurately, a large round number pulled out of the air.

Ironically, there are many references contained within What War Means that cast doubt on common perceptions concerning Nanjing.

The Nanjing Massacre was predominantly of Chinese soldiers who discarded their uniforms and attempted to blend in with civilians within a safety zone. . . .

A figure of around 10,000 total civilian deaths is supported by the present available evidence. A sociological survey conducted by Dr Lewis SC Smythe, an American professor of sociology at Nanjing University in early 1938, established tallies of 2,400 killed and 4,200 taken away and not yet returned.

Chinese efforts to tabulate the names of victims have reached a total of 10,664. To this, we can add an account provided by Timperley from a "foreign member of the University faculty" (quite possibly an estimate by Smythe prior to his survey) on January 25, 1938. It reads: "Evidences from burials indicate that close to 40,000 unarmed persons were killed within and near the walls of Nanking, of whom some 30% had never been soldiers." This estimate of around 12,000 is broadly consistent with both the Smythe report and Chinese tabulations.

Additionally, there is the following from John Rabe, the German-born Chairman of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone on January 28, 1938, concerning civilian deaths. "There are many hundreds, if not thousands, of cases where the wage earner has either been taken away or killed," Rabe states. "Hundreds, if not thousands" clearly suggests a figure for wage-earning men in the low thousands at best.

Yet what Israel is doing in Gaza you find perfectly acceptable.

You have credibility here.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Yet what Israel is doing in Gaza you find perfectly acceptable.

Yes, I find it completely acceptable. If a Jewish group in a strip of land in Iran or Iraq had launched hundreds of rockets against civilian targets and then attacked a concert and killed over 1,000 Iranian or Iraqi civilians, that group and strip of land would have been bombed and shelled out of existence and with far greater civilian casualties in the strip of land.

If anything, the Israelis have shown remarkable restraint.

You have credibility here.

Yes, I do indeed.

 

[gipper]

Yes, I find it completely acceptable. If a Jewish group in a strip of land in Iran or Iraq had launched hundreds of rockets against civilian targets and then attacked a concert and killed over 1,000 Iranian or Iraqi civilians, that group and strip of land would have been bombed and shelled out of existence and with far greater civilian casualties in the strip of land.

If anything, the Israelis have shown remarkable restraint.


Yes, I do indeed.

Proof you know nothing. Dumb fuck.

Tell me Mr Great Historian since Israel became a state, how many Israelis have been murdered vs Palestinians? Tell me who lost their land? Tell me how many Israelis have died from Hamas rockets vs the number of Palestinians murdered just since 10/7?

I bought your book and read it. I want a refund.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Proof you know nothing. &^%$%$

Tell me Mr Great Historian since Israel became a state, how many Israelis have been murdered vs Palestinians? Tell me who lost their land? Tell me how many Israelis have died from Hamas rockets vs the number of Palestinians murdered just since 10/7?

If you want to keep repeating jihadist and neo-Nazi propaganda about Israel and the Palestinians, I suggest you start a separate thread.

This thread is about Chinese propaganda regarding the Nanking Massacre.

 

[gipper]

If you want to keep repeating jihadist and neo-Nazi propaganda about Israel and the Palestinians, I suggest you start a separate thread.

This thread is about Chinese propaganda regarding the Nanking Massacre.

More proof you’re uninformed and just another dupe.

Try answering my questions. You’ll realize how dumb you are, if you do.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Try answering my questions. You’ll realize how dumb you are, if you do.

If you ask me a question about the Nanking Massacre, I'll be happy to respond. I'm not going to bother with your jihadist/neo-Nazi-based questions about Israel and the Palestinians in this thread.

Now, to get the discussion back to the topic of the thread, below is the updated link to Dr. Joshua A. Fogel's response to Herbert Bix on the Nanking Massacre. Dr. Fogel is an emeritus professor of Chinese history and Chinese-Japanese relations at York University in Toronto, Canada. Before that, he taught Asian history at Harvard University and the University of California:

Response to Herbert P. Bix, - Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus

[…]

apjjf.org

EXCERPT:

Hata is largely responsible for discrediting virtually every one of the photographs that adorn the pages of Iris Chang’s book and probably are as responsible as her prose for winning admirers among English-language readers. His piece of several years ago in Sekai subjected each and every one of them to withering criticism. Several Japanese historians, such as Kasahara Tokushi, subsequently apologized for having accepted the validity of one or more of them.

 

[JoeB131]

I thought it would be worthwhile to resurrect this thread on the Nanking Massacre, given certain comments that one of our resident anti-Semitic Israel haters and Mao apologists has been making on the topic recently. I am also reviving this thread because I ran across some recent articles by Asia scholar Paul De Vries on the Nanking Massacre, most of which were published after this thread ended in late 2022.

Wow, a white guy telling the Asians that what happened to them wasn't so bad, they should really just suck it up.

To provide a quick recap, Iris Chang's 1997 book The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, which was widely promoted by China's repressive government, has been cut to pieces by Asia scholars.

Asia Scholars - Translation WHITE PEOPLE!!!

The Nanking Massacre was a terrible crime. There is no need to muddy the waters by severely exaggerating the death toll and by presenting photos that had nothing to do with the event. Chang's book was part of a long-standing and ongoing effort by the Chinese government to smear Japan. The Japanese army's conduct during WWII was atrocious in far too many cases, but the Chinese armies, both Nationalist and Communist, were often just as brutal.

Oh, the poor Japanese, they are such victims, why does the rest of Asia hate them so much?

 

[Unkotare]

Someone is trying too hard to curry favor with someone else.

 

[ThirdTerm]

With these stipulations understood, let us look at some facts regarding the 300,000 figure and Chang’s book. The points below do not address all the problems with the 300,000 figure, but they are a decent introduction to the problems with Chang’s case.

The author of the controversial book intentionally missed this safety zone which sheltered up to 250,000 Chinese civilians during the massacre.



John Rabe and his International Committee were credited with saving 200,000–250,000 lives despite the ongoing massacre.[42][43] After George Ashmore Fitch departed, Hubert Lafayette Sone was elected Administrative Director of the Nanking International Relief Committee.[44] On February 18, 1938, the International Committee of the Safety Zone was forced to restructure as the International Relief Committee of Nanjing. This decision was communicated to the U.S., British, and German embassies in China. Subsequently, the management of the Safety Zone was progressively assumed by the puppet institutions established by the Japanese army, officially concluding the Safety Zone, with the final refugee shelters closing in June of that year. By late 1939 and early 1940, the operations of the Relief Committee were essentially concluded, and in August 1940, the Nanking International Relief Committee was formally disbanded.[45]

Nanking Safety Zone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mikegriffith1]

Wow, a white guy telling the Asians that what happened to them wasn't so bad, they should really just suck it up.

LOL! Only you could interpret my latest reply and my previous ones as even remotely saying the massacre "wasn't so bad."

Of course, what you're actually referring to is the number of civilians killed. You buy the absurd, impossible Communist Chinese figure of 300,000-plus. I do not. The primary sources clearly indicate that about 10,000 to 12,000 civilians were killed, which, as I've repeatedly said, is a horrific, awful crime. Killing 100 civilians is an atrocity.

But, I suspect you'll just keep on telling your lie that this means I'm saying the massacre "wasn't so bad," "wasn't all that bad." You'll only keep discrediting yourself in doing so.

Asia Scholars - Translation WHITE PEOPLE!!!

Another howler, and another one of your racist comments. FYI, many of those Asia scholars are Asians, not that a scholars' race really matters (only to you and other racists).

Oh, the poor Japanese, they are such victims, why does the rest of Asia hate them so much?

Huh??? What in the world? Just to show what a wingnut you are, let's quote the statement to which you are responding here:

"The Nanking Massacre was a terrible crime. There is no need to muddy the waters by severely exaggerating the death toll and by presenting photos that had nothing to do with the event. Chang's book was part of a long-standing and ongoing effort by the Chinese government to smear Japan. The Japanese army's conduct during WWII was atrocious in far too many cases, but the Chinese armies, both Nationalist and Communist, were often just as brutal."

Somehow, someway you read this as saying "the poor Japanese are such victims"!

why does the rest of Asia hate them so much?

What jaw-dropping ignorance. Uh, Jihad Joe, FYI, most Asian nations fear China, not Japan. This isn't the 1940s. It's 2025.

In fact, in 2024, the Philippines, in response to China's growing power and aggressiveness, requested that Japan and the U.S. provide more military aid, and they agreed to do so. And Japan and India increased their security ties to counter China as well.

Even Joe Biden recognized the threat that China increasingly poses to the region, which is he why he upgraded our security ties with South Korea, the Philippines, and Japan.

Did you somehow miss all this news?

I mean, I know you're a Mao apologist, and an apologist for China's brutal regime, but don't you watch the news? Even legacy news outlets carried this story.

The U.S. and Japan announce a historic upgrade in security ties to counter China

President Joe Biden, who is hosting Prime Minister Fumio Kishida on an official visit, views Japan as an important bulwark against Chinese dominance in the Asia-Pacific.

www.nbcnews.com

Under Biden, US reimagines Asian alliances as 'lattice' fence

Officials in Biden's administration say it could have big implications as they try to create durable plan to respond to China's growing power

www.voanews.com

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www.bloomberg.com

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www.usnews.com

It is genuinely comical that you seem oblivious to how you keep discrediting yourself and exposing yourself as an uneducated, brainwashed wingnut.

 

[JoeB131]

The author of the controversial book intentionally missed this safety zone which sheltered up to 250,000 Chinese civilians during the massacre.

Yes, White People, it's all about you.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL! Only you could interpret my latest reply and my previous ones as even remotely saying the massacre "wasn't so bad."

Of course, what you're actually referring to is the number of civilians killed. You buy the absurd, impossible Communist Chinese figure of 300,000-plus. I do not. The primary sources clearly indicate that about 10,000 to 12,000 civilians were killed, which, as I've repeatedly said, is a horrific, awful crime. Killing 100 civilians is an atrocity.

But, I suspect you'll just keep on telling your lie that this means I'm saying the massacre "wasn't so bad," "wasn't all that bad." You'll only keep discrediting yourself in doing so.

Actually, the higher figures are accepted by most scholars.

10,000 is an absurdly low number that even Japanese revisionists don't say with a straight face.

Another howler, and another one of your racist comments. FYI, many of those Asia scholars are Asians, not that a scholars' race really matters (only to you and other racists).

The only "Asian" Scholars who try to downplay the massacre are the Japanese. But this is what they do, try to pretend they didn't do anything that bad during the war. Unlike the Germans, who just can't stop apologizing for World War II.

Huh??? What in the world? Just to show what a wingnut you are, let's quote the statement to which you are responding here:

"The Nanking Massacre was a terrible crime. There is no need to muddy the waters by severely exaggerating the death toll and by presenting photos that had nothing to do with the event. Chang's book was part of a long-standing and ongoing effort by the Chinese government to smear Japan. The Japanese army's conduct during WWII was atrocious in far too many cases, but the Chinese armies, both Nationalist and Communist, were often just as brutal."

Somehow, someway you read this as saying "the poor Japanese are such victims"!

Yes, we know you like to slander poor Iris Chang, a highly respected historian. A woman who became so depressed by her field of study she took her own life. then again, it's pretty soul-crushing as a subject.

What jaw-dropping ignorance. Uh, Jihad Joe, FYI, most Asian nations fear China, not Japan. This isn't the 1940s. It's 2025.

In fact, in 2024, the Philippines, in response to China's growing power and aggressiveness, requested that Japan and the U.S. provide more military aid, and they agreed to do so. And Japan and India increased their security ties to counter China as well.

Okay, get real. China is the largest trading partner of every last one of those countries. (Also, most of Africa, the Middle East, and South America) So they say, "Please take up our defense, America", while they invite Chinese investors in to build their roads and work on their infrastructure.

I'd say you don't know when you are being played for a fool, but you're a Mormon; getting played for a fool is kind of your thing.

"No, seriously, Joseph Smith found these magic plates in the forest, and they had a whole alternative Bible on them!"

Oh, since you brought up India. India is part of the BRICs..you know, the counter to the western alliance that includes Brazil, Russia, INDIA and wait for it, CHINA.

I couldn't think of anything more stupid than risking our very pricy aircraft carriers because Bongbong Marcos wants to lay claim to an Island so small, they have to ground a ship on it to give his guys somewhere to stand.

Even Joe Biden recognized the threat that China increasingly poses to the region, which is he why he upgraded our security ties with South Korea, the Philippines, and Japan.

Did you somehow miss all this news?

I mean, I know you're a Mao apologist, and an apologist for China's brutal regime, but don't you watch the news? Even legacy news outlets carried this story.

Hey, if I could get another country to totally take care of my defense needs, I'd do that, too. Unlike Europe, which at least makes some effort towards collective defense, most of these countries are free riders.

It is genuinely comical that you seem oblivious to how you keep discrediting yourself and exposing yourself as an uneducated, brainwashed wingnut.

Um, guy, you belong to a deranged cult started by a kiddy-diddler. That's what brainwashed looks like.

I listen to the Military-Industrial Complex tell me I need to be terrified of China, (a country that hasn't gone to war since 1979!) over some barren Island in the South China Sea and I just have to laugh at it.

 

[mikegriffith1]

The author of the controversial book intentionally missed this safety zone which sheltered up to 250,000 Chinese civilians during the massacre.

Yes, and that was a revealing, damning omission, not to mention the fact that most of the photos Chang put in her book had nothing to do with the Nanking Massacre.

John Rabe and his International Committee were credited with saving 200,000–250,000 lives despite the ongoing massacre.[42][43] After George Ashmore Fitch departed, Hubert Lafayette Sone was elected Administrative Director of the Nanking International Relief Committee.[44] On February 18, 1938, the International Committee of the Safety Zone was forced to restructure as the International Relief Committee of Nanjing. This decision was communicated to the U.S., British, and German embassies in China. Subsequently, the management of the Safety Zone was progressively assumed by the puppet institutions established by the Japanese army, officially concluding the Safety Zone, with the final refugee shelters closing in June of that year. By late 1939 and early 1940, the operations of the Relief Committee were essentially concluded, and in August 1940, the Nanking International Relief Committee was formally disbanded.[45]

Yes, Rabe and the Nanking International Relief Committee did God's work during the massacre, but the figure of 200,000-250,000 is impossible. There were only about 225,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese began their assault on the city. Understandably, a large majority of the city's population had already fled.

This is one of the problems with Chang's 300,000 figure that so many scholars have pointed out. There simply were not that many people in Nanking when the Japanese took the city. Many people in the area surrounding Nanking had also fled when they learned the Japanese were approaching. Japanese soldiers mentioned walking through largely deserted villages as they approached Nanking.

I discuss this point at length in previous replies in this thread.