The Losertarian Party - Look at This List of Winners - LMAO

[ChrisL]

Walmart pleaded guilty to an assortment of charges with fines totaling more than $110 million for violating state laws and the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act. The Arkansas firm will pay $81.6 million in fines in cases brought by Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency and the rest the result of cases brought by Missouri and California.

In announcing the guilty plea, Justice and the FBI said the case and huge fine were a warning to other retailers who take returns of pesticides and other poisons and simply toss them in the garbage or down the drain.

You should have a talk with Elon Musk and the electric car folks then. Because of the GIGATONS of toxic battery waste that's gonna end up in junkyards and landfills from THEIR Products. The government is ALWAYS BEHIND the curve. And they are generally incompetent when they DO ACT.

That's why direct legal actions and Libertarian ideas about proving harm are the more effective than expecting the government to be dealing with this. Corporations RESPOND to hits in their profits. They OWN the process of making "laws" and re-writing old ones.
Most of that collusion needs to go....

I totally disagree. The EPA is a perfectly fine organization that catches these corporations before TOO much damage is done. Sometimes they go too far, but that does not mean they are not legit. They are.

 

[ChrisL]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

Of course they do.. They Spend $MILLs telling you how green they are. They DEPEND on customer loyalty and return sales. Costs them a fortune in revenue and stock prices everytime they screw up.. Their public IMAGE is their most important asset... That's how it works --- kiddo...

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

 

[ChrisL]

I just cannot believe how stupid people are. Unreal and very disappointing and discouraging.

 

[flacaltenn]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

Of course they do.. They Spend $MILLs telling you how green they are. They DEPEND on customer loyalty and return sales. Costs them a fortune in revenue and stock prices everytime they screw up.. Their public IMAGE is their most important asset... That's how it works --- kiddo...

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

 

[ChrisL]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

Of course they do.. They Spend $MILLs telling you how green they are. They DEPEND on customer loyalty and return sales. Costs them a fortune in revenue and stock prices everytime they screw up.. Their public IMAGE is their most important asset... That's how it works --- kiddo...

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

 

[flacaltenn]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

Of course they do.. They Spend $MILLs telling you how green they are. They DEPEND on customer loyalty and return sales. Costs them a fortune in revenue and stock prices everytime they screw up.. Their public IMAGE is their most important asset... That's how it works --- kiddo...

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

 

[ChrisL]

Of course they do.. They Spend $MILLs telling you how green they are. They DEPEND on customer loyalty and return sales. Costs them a fortune in revenue and stock prices everytime they screw up.. Their public IMAGE is their most important asset... That's how it works --- kiddo...

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

 

[GHook93]

I sympathize a lot with Libertarians. As a conservative who has been very active in politics since I was a teenager, I have rubbed elbows with Libertarians for 40 years or so. And I quickly learned they are absolutely clueless about human nature.

I've actually had Libertarians tell me in so many words, "Corporations won't dump toxic chemicals into our water supply because then people won't like them or buy their stuff."

Yeah.

Their ideas about child labor laws and safety regulations are way out of whack, as well as their ideas about legalizing all drugs and shrinking our military down to the size of a cub scout troop. And don't even get me started on the Fed and the FDA and the FAA.

I do believe our federal government has far, far exceeded the bounds which our Founders originally intended it to have, and I am extremely angry about that. But I guess I am what you would call a libertarian (small "l") with common sense.

HUH?

WTF?

That's pure bullshit. No Libertarian has ever told you that "Corporations won't dump toxic chemicals into our water supply because then people won't like them or buy their stuff."

The Libertarian Party clearly delineates how to protect the environment in a Libertarian society.
Did The EPA Intentionally Poison Animas River To Secure SuperFund Money?

Well, there are some "extreme" libertarians too who do actually believe that there should be NO regulations on big business . . .

There should be NO government regulations on big business

That is correct

The only regulations that can be trusted are those of the free market.


.

So, you at first deny there are Libertarians who say corporations won't dump toxic waste because then people won't like them or buy their stuff.

And then with your statement that "the only regulations that can be trusted are those of the free market" to keep them honest, you confirm you are one such person.

Stop bullshitting Mendel,

Ron Paul on Environment

Republican Representative (TX-14); previously Libertarian for President

Eliminate the ineffective EPA

• 
  As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:
• Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.
• Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.
• Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.
• Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create --not to Washington.
• Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.

.

Lol and people like you wonder why I call you fools the Losertarians.

 

[Pogo]

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

 

[Contumacious]

HUH?

WTF?

That's pure bullshit. No Libertarian has ever told you that "Corporations won't dump toxic chemicals into our water supply because then people won't like them or buy their stuff."

The Libertarian Party clearly delineates how to protect the environment in a Libertarian society.
Did The EPA Intentionally Poison Animas River To Secure SuperFund Money?

Well, there are some "extreme" libertarians too who do actually believe that there should be NO regulations on big business . . .

There should be NO government regulations on big business

That is correct

The only regulations that can be trusted are those of the free market.


.

So, you at first deny there are Libertarians who say corporations won't dump toxic waste because then people won't like them or buy their stuff.

And then with your statement that "the only regulations that can be trusted are those of the free market" to keep them honest, you confirm you are one such person.

Lol and people like you wonder why I call you fools the braindead.
Stop bullshitting Mendel,

Ron Paul on Environment

Republican Representative (TX-14); previously Libertarian for President

Eliminate the ineffective EPA

• 
  As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:
• Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.
• Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.
• Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.
• Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create --not to Washington.
• Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.

.

Lol and people like you wonder why I call you fools the Losertarians.

Lol and people like you wonder why I call you fools the braindead.

 

[Contumacious]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

SOME Corporations do not care, but in a fascist environment they don't have to please WE THE PEOPLE - they are only required to please the apparatchik..

.

You are an extremist weirdo. That is all.

You are an extremist fascist weirdo, that's all.

 

[ChrisL]

Corporations do NOT care about you, me or anything else except for making as much money as possible. GREED! Money and greed = the root of all evil done in the world.

SOME Corporations do not care, but in a fascist environment they don't have to please WE THE PEOPLE - they are only required to please the apparatchik..

.

You are an extremist weirdo. That is all.

You are an extremist fascist weirdo, that's all.

I don't think you know what "fascism" means. Lol.

 

[flacaltenn]

The fact you think that's funny -- tells me you don't know how things work.. That seems to be the case of a lot of people that just parrot how bad the free market concepts are..

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

I have trouble understanding how you disagree with obvious facts. Like the VW event or the Flint Water Event or the 3 river system that the EPA CREATED last year because they didn't listen to folks who understood the mining risks or the fact that the Fed created an environmental apocalypse with improper nuclear storage at their Weapons plants that's lingers for decade.



If you disagree with FACTS --- there can't be a conversation or debate..

 

[ChrisL]

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

I have trouble understanding how you disagree with obvious facts. Like the VW event or the Flint Water Event or the 3 river system that the EPA CREATED last year because they didn't listen to folks who understood the mining risks or the fact that the Fed created an environmental apocalypse with improper nuclear storage at their Weapons plants that's lingers for decade.



If you disagree with FACTS --- there can't be a conversation or debate..

Like I said, the EPA is not perfect, but neither is any organization, and they have certainly caught many industries breaking laws and polluting. More instances of them catching businesses blatantly and PURPOSEFULLY polluting our air, rivers, streams, soil, etc., than there are instances of the EPA "fucking up."

 

[flacaltenn]

All one has to do is look at third world countries. Duh. You are just another extremist.

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

 

[ChrisL]

Are WE a third world country? Don't think so.. GOVERNMENT run corporations in socialist countries are the worst polluters. Look at the mess in China. BIG STRONG government. Or the disasters in the Eastern bloc countries under Communism,..

Govt is not effective at keeping up with the pace of life. The EPA responded a YEAR LATE in the Flint water crisis. And then NOBODY gets fired or even reprimanded. The EPA CAUSED a disastrous spill in COlorado last year because they tried to fix things themselves.

The largest and most dangerous Toxic issue in this country is the rotting NUCLEAR WASTE at Government Nuclear Weapons plants from back in the 50s and 60s. There is NOTHING special about depending on the government to "catch things" early or efficiently..

And lay off the "extremist" name-calling.. I'm nothing of the kind..

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

If SOME industries are prevented from polluting, then the EPA is doing it's job. If you think for a moment that these industries will regulate themselves . . . well that's just foolish!

 

[bripat9643]

They catch a lot of big corporations doing some really shady things, like it or not.

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

If SOME industries are prevented from polluting, then the EPA is doing it's job. If you think for a moment that these industries will regulate themselves . . . well that's just foolish!

The tort system is sufficient to prevent industry from polluting, that is, as long as the water or land being polluted doesn't belong to the government. selling off all land and water rights to individuals and private firms would solve that problem. The air pollution problem is more difficult since we can't sell the air, but we don't need some Gestapo like organization like the EPA to solve it.

 

[ChrisL]

Sure sure sure. That's how VW got away with cheating on emission tests RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES for 6 or 8 years. EPA even declared them a TOP ENVIRONMENTAL choice for auto buyers while VW was fooling the pants off of them. It is Hit and Miss. Mostly miss actually.

Corporations are MUCH MORE afraid of group action or state or local lawsuits and public opinion than the enforcement side of the EPA. The EPA may serve a purpose to homogenize national standards. (which is good and bad in itself since one size fits all standards are very expensive),. But their enforcement side is NOT what keeps corporations up at night.

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

If SOME industries are prevented from polluting, then the EPA is doing it's job. If you think for a moment that these industries will regulate themselves . . . well that's just foolish!

The tort system is sufficient to prevent industry from polluting, that is, as long as the water or land being polluted doesn't belong to the government. selling off all land and water rights to individuals and private firms would solve that problem. The air pollution problem is more difficult since we can't sell the air, but we don't need some Gestapo like organization like the EPA to solve it.

Industries hide this kind of stuff. They don't let people KNOW about it. It takes money and resources to find out about these things.

 

[bripat9643]

I totally disagree with everything you say.

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

If SOME industries are prevented from polluting, then the EPA is doing it's job. If you think for a moment that these industries will regulate themselves . . . well that's just foolish!

The tort system is sufficient to prevent industry from polluting, that is, as long as the water or land being polluted doesn't belong to the government. selling off all land and water rights to individuals and private firms would solve that problem. The air pollution problem is more difficult since we can't sell the air, but we don't need some Gestapo like organization like the EPA to solve it.

Industries hide this kind of stuff. They don't let people KNOW about it. It takes money and resources to find out about these things.

Yeah, because we know little guys have never sued big corporations before.

It's pretty difficult to keep secrets when you have thousands of employees working for you that all know the secret.

 

[ChrisL]

So how long have you two been married?

I can see merit in both of your positions, or at least can see how they don't necessarily contradict each other. The difference I see is that FCT is talking about ideals and ChrisL's speaking of realities.

Between the two I gotta give the edge to the latter.

To single out the point above, the fact that VW may have got away with -- whatever, doesn't refute Chris' point. They DO catch corps doing really shady things, even if they didn't catch that specific one. As for their being concerned with PR, well that varies with the business; some take it more seriously than others. But it's impossible to not see that they do need rules to be set down without which they'll run roughshod over the earth, the people, and each other. We found that out in the 19th century. The only argument left is what the degree of it should be.

The rule part MIGHT be important. Except that one size fits all rules force small communities to spend EXTRADORDINARY amount of money to comply with little gain. There is no prioritization of enviro gains when it's done from the Federal level.

The "enforcement" part of the EPA role is much less important except when it comes to throttling state and local authorities into compliance. Corporations can be sued class action on the basis of EPA RULES by anyone. And that's what they fear the most.

Volkswagen just demonstrated that. They PLAYED the EPA for 6 or 8 years. Got the EPA to glowingly ENDORSE those vehicles. The EPA doesn't and will never have the resources to litigate every polluter.. They don't even seem to care very much about pollution when it comes from the LARGEST polluter --- the Federal Gvt itself. Largest stash of really dirty coal plants in the US belong to the TVA -- a Federal agency...

If SOME industries are prevented from polluting, then the EPA is doing it's job. If you think for a moment that these industries will regulate themselves . . . well that's just foolish!

The tort system is sufficient to prevent industry from polluting, that is, as long as the water or land being polluted doesn't belong to the government. selling off all land and water rights to individuals and private firms would solve that problem. The air pollution problem is more difficult since we can't sell the air, but we don't need some Gestapo like organization like the EPA to solve it.

Industries hide this kind of stuff. They don't let people KNOW about it. It takes money and resources to find out about these things.

Yeah, because we know little guys have never sued big corporations before.

It's pretty difficult to keep secrets when you have thousands of employees working for you that all know the secret.

It's happened MANY times in the past. Lol. Employees don't want to risk their job security, of course.