The Latest Socialist Excuse...

[Missouri_Mike]

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

If the only property rights you and I enjoy are those sanctioned by government, then those rights should be determined on the basis of one vote per citizen and not one vote per (corporate) dollar. When political pressure from below forced FDR to impose high taxes on wealth and business...

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Revenue Act of 1935 - Wikipedia

"The Revenue Act of 1935, 49 Stat. 1014 (Aug. 30, 1935), raised federal income tax on higher income levels, by introducing the "Wealth Tax". It was a progressive tax that took up to 75 percent of the highest incomes.[1]

"It was signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

"The 1935 Act also was popularly known at the time as the "Soak the Rich" tax.[2] To solve the problem of tax evasion through loopholes, the Revenue Act of 1937 revised tax laws and regulations to increase the efficacy of the tax.[1]"

Stock Photo - ROOSEVELT CARTOON, 1934. /nPresident Franklin D. Roosevelt displaying some interest in adopting the 'Share the Wealth' (i.e. soak the rich) programs of Senator Huey P. Long

The depression lasted for another 7 years after that.

Did you learn anything?

Shockingly when WW2 started. I wonder what helped more. The high tax rates or the war.

 

[SAYIT]

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

If the only property rights you and I enjoy are those sanctioned by government, then those rights should be determined on the basis of one vote per citizen and not one vote per (corporate) dollar. When political pressure from below forced FDR to impose high taxes on wealth and business...

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Revenue Act of 1935 - Wikipedia

"The Revenue Act of 1935, 49 Stat. 1014 (Aug. 30, 1935), raised federal income tax on higher income levels, by introducing the "Wealth Tax". It was a progressive tax that took up to 75 percent of the highest incomes.[1]

"It was signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

"The 1935 Act also was popularly known at the time as the "Soak the Rich" tax.[2] To solve the problem of tax evasion through loopholes, the Revenue Act of 1937 revised tax laws and regulations to increase the efficacy of the tax.[1]"

Stock Photo - ROOSEVELT CARTOON, 1934. /nPresident Franklin D. Roosevelt displaying some interest in adopting the 'Share the Wealth' (i.e. soak the rich) programs of Senator Huey P. Long

That was income tax. A wealth tax - as a few US states once tried - is determined by one's wealth.

JFTR, France's wealth tax was an annual direct wealth tax on those in France having assets in excess of €1,300,000 and was instituted by the Socialist Party in 1981. It was replaced last year by a national real estate tax. It resulted in both a capital and brain drain as those who could left France and took their cookies with 'em.

 

[georgephillip]

The majority of workers aren't running companies right now because they don't know how to effectively run a company, Einstien....

If you'd ever signed the front of a paycheck, you couldn't possibly have asked such a stupid question.

Elitism ^

What is or can be more elitist than the unshakable belief of those who demand that gov't confiscate the hard earned wealth of others and give it to them and those who support such silliness?

What is or can be more elitist than the unshakable belief of those who demand that gov't confiscate the hard earned wealth of others and give it to them and those who support such silliness?

Silliness on stilts:

"Today the Walton family of Walmart own more wealth than the bottom 40 percent of America."
— Bernie Sanders on Sunday, July 22nd, 2012 in a message on Twitter"

How hard did the Walton heirs work in order to "earn" their fortunes?

Bernie Sanders says Walmart heirs own more wealth than bottom 40 percent of Americans

Not in any way defending WalMart...but how does the “hourly” rate of retirement get calculated? How many hours a week is someone retired?


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

Not that Walmart needs anyone's defense - they have won playing by the rules we have established - there is no shame in doing so. I find the company to be a favorite whipping-boy of those who insist we reshuffle the deck because they are petulant, self-entitled losers, and to be as good a place as any to make my anti-socialism argument.

I believe our govt's job is to provide as level a playfield as possible - enabling as many Americans as possible to pursue our dreams as we see fit - and then get out of our way and let us do what we do best … be productive and prosper.

Not that Walmart needs anyone's defense - they have won playing by the rules we have established - there is no shame in doing so. I find the company to be a favorite whipping-boy of those who insist we reshuffle the deck because they are petulant, self-entitled losers, and to be as good a place as any to make my anti-socialism argument.

Walmart is among the best examples of corporate welfare the US has to offer. It demands tax breaks to build in many neighborhoods thereby depriving the local community of much need public revenues and it pays its employees a wage that requires workers apply for food stamps and Section 8 housing:

Walmart On Welfare -- The National Memo

"Next time you drive past a Walmart, think about how much in taxes you pay to subsidize the nation’s largest private employer, owned by the nation’s richest family.

"Your cost this year (2014): $24 if you are single, $49 if you are a couple, and $99 if you are a couple with two kids.

"And you pay whether or not you shop at Walmart or its Sam’s Clubs."

 

[georgephillip]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

 

[bripat9643]

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

If the only property rights you and I enjoy are those sanctioned by government, then those rights should be determined on the basis of one vote per citizen and not one vote per (corporate) dollar. When political pressure from below forced FDR to impose high taxes on wealth and business...

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Revenue Act of 1935 - Wikipedia

"The Revenue Act of 1935, 49 Stat. 1014 (Aug. 30, 1935), raised federal income tax on higher income levels, by introducing the "Wealth Tax". It was a progressive tax that took up to 75 percent of the highest incomes.[1]

"It was signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

"The 1935 Act also was popularly known at the time as the "Soak the Rich" tax.[2] To solve the problem of tax evasion through loopholes, the Revenue Act of 1937 revised tax laws and regulations to increase the efficacy of the tax.[1]"

Stock Photo - ROOSEVELT CARTOON, 1934. /nPresident Franklin D. Roosevelt displaying some interest in adopting the 'Share the Wealth' (i.e. soak the rich) programs of Senator Huey P. Long

The depression lasted for another 7 years after that.

Did you learn anything?

Shockingly when WW2 started. I wonder what helped more. The high tax rates or the war.

The war reduced unemployment only because FDR sent all the unemployed off to fight the war.

 

[bripat9643]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did they provide?

 

[georgephillip]

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

If the only property rights you and I enjoy are those sanctioned by government, then those rights should be determined on the basis of one vote per citizen and not one vote per (corporate) dollar. When political pressure from below forced FDR to impose high taxes on wealth and business...

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

FDR imposed no federal wealth taxes and the states that have imposed them later repealed them and for good reason:

Revenue Act of 1935 - Wikipedia

"The Revenue Act of 1935, 49 Stat. 1014 (Aug. 30, 1935), raised federal income tax on higher income levels, by introducing the "Wealth Tax". It was a progressive tax that took up to 75 percent of the highest incomes.[1]

"It was signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

"The 1935 Act also was popularly known at the time as the "Soak the Rich" tax.[2] To solve the problem of tax evasion through loopholes, the Revenue Act of 1937 revised tax laws and regulations to increase the efficacy of the tax.[1]"

Stock Photo - ROOSEVELT CARTOON, 1934. /nPresident Franklin D. Roosevelt displaying some interest in adopting the 'Share the Wealth' (i.e. soak the rich) programs of Senator Huey P. Long

That was income tax. A wealth tax - as a few US states once tried - is determined by one's wealth.

JFTR, France's wealth tax was an annual direct wealth tax on those in France having assets in excess of €1,300,000 and was instituted by the Socialist Party in 1981. It was replaced last year by a national real estate tax. It resulted in both a capital and brain drain as those who could left France and took their cookies with 'em.

FTR, France's wealth tax was an annual direct wealth tax on those in France having assets in excess of €1,300,000 and was instituted by the Socialist Party in 1981. It was replaced last year by a national real estate tax. It resulted in both a capital and brain drain as those who could left France and took their cookies with 'em

TaxProf Blog: The Constitutionality Of Elizabeth Warren's Proposed Federal Wealth Tax

"Policymakers and scholars are giving serious consideration to a federal wealth tax. Wealth taxation could address the harms from rising economic inequality, promote equality of social and economic opportunity, and raise the revenue needed to fund critical government programs.

"These reasons for taxing wealth may not matter, however, if a federal wealth tax is unconstitutional.

"Scholars debating the constitutionality of a wealth tax generally focus on a specific question: Would a tax on a base of a taxpayer’s wealth (a 'traditional wealth tax') be a 'direct tax' under the Constitution that is subject to apportionment among the states by population? Apportionment would be impossible such a tax, which explains the centrality of this question in the prior literature."

 

[georgephillip]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

Workers and the local community's tax base have a much bigger stake in Walmart than the useless eaters ol' Sam Walton left behind:

Walmart On Welfare -- The National Memo

"American taxpayer money explains almost a third of Walmart’s worldwide pretax profits last year. But that understates the scale of taxpayer assistance to the retailer, which made 29 percent of its sales overseas last year.

"Figure about 44 percent of Walmart’s domestic pretax profits were contributed by local, state and federal taxpayers directly and indirectly, based on company disclosure statements."

 

[georgephillip]

"Sanders attracts the intense support of a small left-wing intellectual vanguard who see American politics in fundamentally different terms than most Democrats do.

"The primary struggle in American politics as they see it is not between liberalism and conservatism, but between socialism and capitalism...

I agree that the primary struggle in American politics is between socialism and capitalism and that Bernie and at least 1/3 of Americans are dim enough to prefer the former. In fact, pretending what they promote is anything but the end of American freedom and prosperity is naive at best.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole

What problem do you have with businesses being run by a majority of workers instead of the richest one percent of shareholders/stakeholders?

It has never worked, and it never will. How can you give workers control over corporations without expropriating trillions in private property?

t has never worked, and it never will. How can you give workers control over corporations without expropriating trillions in private property?

I would begin the same way FDR did when he forced high levels of taxation on wealth and business in order to fund Social Security, unemployment compensation and a massive federal jobs program.

Today, WSDEs often become practical when the founders/owners of a small business retire and opt to sell their enterprise to their employees instead of rival capitalists. Legal services designed to implement such radical economic procedures already exist.

You’re a brainwashed idiot. You actually think you’re going to tax your way to 10 million new jobs?

You’re a brainwashed idiot. You actually think you’re going to tax your way to 10 million new jobs?

Are you as ignorant as Trump?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-creates-the-wpa

 

[georgephillip]

Well, I think ultimate control of the economy should reside with private capitalists, so that's a wash - but not through the Fed or via control of the government. Government should have no part to play. That's the problem now.

Well, I think ultimate control of the economy should reside with private capitalists, so that's a wash - but not through the Fed or via control of the government. Government should have no part to play. That's the problem now

Do you believe property rights come from god or government?

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

Property rights are a construct of government. What is your point? Are you suggesting that because government enforces rules regarding property that they should also have broad powers to dictate our economic decisions? Why?

If the only property rights you and I enjoy are those sanctioned by government, then those rights should be determined on the basis of one vote per citizen and not one vote per (corporate) dollar. When political pressure from below forced FDR to impose high taxes on wealth and business to fund mass relief from the capitalist Great Depression, we saw an example of government enforcing rules regarding property that enhanced the lives on millions of productive Americans at the expense of the economic parasites of the time. Another redistribution is long overdue.

Still not seeing the 'why'. But let's talk about your economy of "one vote per citizen and not one vote per dollar". You seem to be saying that everyone should have exactly the same amount of money to spend. But once they spend it, their "vote" is transferred to the seller. What then? Do we have to give all the money back at the end of the day? How do you prevent people from delegating their "votes" (dollars) to another? And if they can't do that, how does an economy work at all?

Does anyone in their right mind believe ceding our individual rights to our already too big, greasy central gov't to be the best way to eliminate income/wealth disparities? Is the end of freedom really useful to us and our progeny? Yeah, capitalism truly is the worst economic model … until one compares it to all the others.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." - A.F.Tytler

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." - A.F.Tytler

Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee - Wikipedia

"In his Lectures, Tytler expressed a critical view of democracy in general and representative democracies such as republics in particular. He believed that 'a pure democracy is a chimera', and that 'All government is essentially of the nature of a monarchy'"

Has Trump confirmed Tytler's view "all government is essentially ...a monarchy?"

 

[dblack]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

So how do we decide how to expand the board of directors? And how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society? You seem to be assuming that anything done "democratically" will produce better results. Trump much?

 

[georgephillip]

"Sanders attracts the intense support of a small left-wing intellectual vanguard who see American politics in fundamentally different terms than most Democrats do.

"The primary struggle in American politics as they see it is not between liberalism and conservatism, but between socialism and capitalism...

I agree that the primary struggle in American politics is between socialism and capitalism and that Bernie and at least 1/3 of Americans are dim enough to prefer the former. In fact, pretending what they promote is anything but the end of American freedom and prosperity is naive at best.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole

What problem do you have with businesses being run by a majority of workers instead of the richest one percent of shareholders/stakeholders?

American biz is not run by the richest one percent of shareholders, Comrade George, and if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you will end up in Venezuela.

American biz is not run by the richest one percent of shareholders, Comrade George, and if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you will end up in Venezuela.

American capitalists like the Koch brothers acting through their useful political idiots inflict economic sanctions on private banks in Venezuela to crash the economy and you blame "socialism"?...

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

Socialist Venezuela Falling Apart As President Maduro Shockingly Blames Party
News flash! Socialism in poor, closed-door economies is a failure. So says Nicolas Maduro, who happens to be the president of one: the biggest failed state in the Americas, poor ol’ Venezuela.

In a surprising twist on Monday, Maduro went against the Socialists United (PSUV) playbook of blaming Washington (especially the CIA) for Venezuela’s troubles.

“The production models we’ve tried so far have failed, and the responsibility is ours—mine and yours,” Maduro told the PSUV party congress.

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

How did Venezuela become a socialist economy without nationalizing its banks?

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017 | Democracy Now!

"More than 40,000 people have died in Venezuela since 2017 as a result of U.S. sanctions, according to a new report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research co-authored by economists Jeffrey Sachs and Mark Weisbrot.

"The report examines how U.S. sanctions have reduced the availability of food and medicine in Venezuela and increased disease and mortality.

"We speak with Jeffrey Sachs in our New York studio. In the report, he writes, 'American sanctions are deliberately aiming to wreck Venezuela’s economy and thereby lead to regime change. It’s a fruitless, heartless, illegal, and failed policy, causing grave harm to the Venezuelan people.'"

 

[bripat9643]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

Workers and the local community's tax base have a much bigger stake in Walmart than the useless eaters ol' Sam Walton left behind:

Walmart On Welfare -- The National Memo

"American taxpayer money explains almost a third of Walmart’s worldwide pretax profits last year. But that understates the scale of taxpayer assistance to the retailer, which made 29 percent of its sales overseas last year.

"Figure about 44 percent of Walmart’s domestic pretax profits were contributed by local, state and federal taxpayers directly and indirectly, based on company disclosure statements."

Communist propaganda. The article is based on the theory that Walmart is obligated to pay some arbitrary wage determined by commies like you. Of course, this theory isn't supported by any accepted principles of ethics, morality, government or economics.

 

[dblack]

The Democratic Socialists of America say that "both the economy and society should be run democratically" and find that very disturbing. I don't think either should be run democratically.

Democracy is a terrible way to "run" things. It's fine for choosing representatives in government, but it's no way to run a society, nor an economy. It essentially injects politics into everything we do, makes everything potentially a political issue. No thanks.

 

[georgephillip]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

So how do we decide how to expand the board of directors? And how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society? You seem to be assuming that anything done "democratically" will produce better results. Trump much?

So how do we decide how to expand the board of directors? And how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society? You seem to be assuming that anything done "democratically" will produce better results. Trump much?

As I recall, Trump lost the popular vote by more than 8 million votes? Expanding a large corporation's board would start with recognizing how a handful of directors with vested interests in the status quo aren't likely to make the fundamental changes to the economic system that's made them rich.

Start With Worker Self-Directed Enterprises

"Zooming In to the Micro Level

"That is to change the who and why of key economic decision making at the basic enterprise level. For the economic system to serve the people, the people need to be in charge.

"Historical efforts to do that at the macro level through government either failed when confronted by determined private capitalist opposition, as in the U.S., or failed by giving too much power to too few in the government, as in the USSR.

"We therefore propose reorganizing enterprises such that workers become their own bosses.

"Specifically, that means placing the workers in the position of their own collective board of directors, rather than having directors be non-workers selected by major shareholders.

"This is not primarily a matter of workers as owners of these enterprises (fine, but not required), nor primarily as managers (likewise fine, but not required)."

 

[georgephillip]

Perhaps Economic Democracy is a more useful concept?

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public."

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Right. That's what I assumed you were talking about. But again, doesn't that just put us back the same boat? How do we choose this group of "public stakeholders", and how do we ensure they work for the benefit of society?

Public stakeholders might start with expanding the board of directors of large corporations to include hourly workers and local community leaders. German corporations have functioned under similar conditions for decades, and many of them did not move to China when major US corporations chose to shutter their homeland facilities and learn Mandarin.

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

How are workers and local community leaders "steak holders?" What part of the money to build the factory did the provide?

Workers and the local community's tax base have a much bigger stake in Walmart than the useless eaters ol' Sam Walton left behind:

Walmart On Welfare -- The National Memo

"American taxpayer money explains almost a third of Walmart’s worldwide pretax profits last year. But that understates the scale of taxpayer assistance to the retailer, which made 29 percent of its sales overseas last year.

"Figure about 44 percent of Walmart’s domestic pretax profits were contributed by local, state and federal taxpayers directly and indirectly, based on company disclosure statements."

Communist propaganda. The article is based on the theory that Walmart is obligated to pay some arbitrary wage determined by commies like you. Of course, this theory isn't supported by any accepted principles of ethics, morality, government or economics.

Communist propaganda. The article is based on the theory that Walmart is obligated to pay some arbitrary wage determined by commies like you. Of course, this theory isn't supported by any accepted principles of ethics, morality, government or economics.

You're offering the Waltons as examples of ethics and morality?

https://www.nationalmemo.com/walmart-welfare/

"The best-known heir of the retailing innovator Sam Walton, his daughter Alice, 64, has a long history of drunk-driving accidents, including killing a woman hit by her vehicle.

"While repeat drunk drivers are routinely prosecuted in most jurisdictions, often as a matter of policy, and upon conviction get the time behind bars their conduct deserves, to date no law enforcement agency has seen fit to prosecute Alice Walton.

"Instead she basks in the glow of encomiums for the philanthropy enabled by the fortune her father built and boosted by the steady flow of money taxpayers are forced to give her, her relatives and other Walmart investors."

 

[SAYIT]

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

How did Venezuela become a socialist economy without nationalizing its banks?

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017 | Democracy Now!

So your point is you and Jeffrey know better than Venezuela's El Presidente what was the cause - their socialist economic model - of Venezuela's economic meltdown?

Yanno, you think and say a lot of very Silly Socialist Shit (SSS) but the history of socialism-in-action is as replete with failure as it is with true believers who try to deny it.

And no Comrade George ... you can't have what others have built and earned just because you are one of life's bitter losers.
Just buy a box of tissues and have another good cry.

 

[georgephillip]

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

How did Venezuela become a socialist economy without nationalizing its banks?

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017 | Democracy Now!

So your point is you and Jeffrey know better than Venezuela's El Presidente what was the cause - their socialist economic model - of Venezuela's economic meltdown?

Yanno, you think and say a lot of very Silly Socialist Shit (SSS) but the history of socialism-in-action is as replete with failure as it is with true believers who try to deny it.

And no Comrade George ... you can't have what others have built and earned just because you are one of life's bitter losers.
Just buy a box of tissues and have another good cry.

Yanno, you think and say a lot of very Silly Socialist Shit (SSS) but the history of socialism-in-action is as replete with failure as it is with true believers who try to deny it.

Do you think it's credible to blame socialism's "failures" (with the exception of Cuba) on the actions of the greatest military empire of all time's eternal antipathy? I only ask because capitalists claim to worship competition.

 

[SAYIT]

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

How did Venezuela become a socialist economy without nationalizing its banks?

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017 | Democracy Now!

So your point is you and Jeffrey know better than Venezuela's El Presidente what was the cause - their socialist economic model - of Venezuela's economic meltdown?

Yanno, you think and say a lot of very Silly Socialist Shit (SSS) but the history of socialism-in-action is as replete with failure as it is with true believers who try to deny it.

And no Comrade George ... you can't have what others have built and earned just because you are one of life's bitter losers.
Just buy a box of tissues and have another good cry.

Yanno, you think and say a lot of very Silly Socialist Shit (SSS) but the history of socialism-in-action is as replete with failure as it is with true believers who try to deny it.

Do you think it's credible to blame socialism's "failures" (with the exception of Cuba) on the actions of the greatest military empire of all time's eternal antipathy? I only ask because capitalists claim to worship competition.

They claim no such thing and blaming others for socialism's failures is only "credible" if one is a socialist crybaby unable to face the fact that as an economic model, confiscating the hard-earned wealth of those who produce it and giving it to life's losers (like you) is not a recipe for economic success and prosperity.

No Comrade George ... you can't have what is mine.

 

[bripat9643]

I agree that the primary struggle in American politics is between socialism and capitalism and that Bernie and at least 1/3 of Americans are dim enough to prefer the former. In fact, pretending what they promote is anything but the end of American freedom and prosperity is naive at best.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole

What problem do you have with businesses being run by a majority of workers instead of the richest one percent of shareholders/stakeholders?

American biz is not run by the richest one percent of shareholders, Comrade George, and if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you will end up in Venezuela.

American biz is not run by the richest one percent of shareholders, Comrade George, and if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you will end up in Venezuela.

American capitalists like the Koch brothers acting through their useful political idiots inflict economic sanctions on private banks in Venezuela to crash the economy and you blame "socialism"?...

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

Socialist Venezuela Falling Apart As President Maduro Shockingly Blames Party
News flash! Socialism in poor, closed-door economies is a failure. So says Nicolas Maduro, who happens to be the president of one: the biggest failed state in the Americas, poor ol’ Venezuela.

In a surprising twist on Monday, Maduro went against the Socialists United (PSUV) playbook of blaming Washington (especially the CIA) for Venezuela’s troubles.

“The production models we’ve tried so far have failed, and the responsibility is ours—mine and yours,” Maduro told the PSUV party congress.

Venezuela's President-for-Life Maduro not only admitted at a PSUV Party conference (yeah, socialism requires the elimination of other political parties) that their socialist economic model is a failure, he blamed himself and the party. Only desperate children need to blame capitalists. You spew common socialist LIES in defense of what has proven to be a guaranteed socio-economic recipe for disaster.

How did Venezuela become a socialist economy without nationalizing its banks?

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017 | Democracy Now!

"More than 40,000 people have died in Venezuela since 2017 as a result of U.S. sanctions, according to a new report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research co-authored by economists Jeffrey Sachs and Mark Weisbrot.

"The report examines how U.S. sanctions have reduced the availability of food and medicine in Venezuela and increased disease and mortality.

"We speak with Jeffrey Sachs in our New York studio. In the report, he writes, 'American sanctions are deliberately aiming to wreck Venezuela’s economy and thereby lead to regime change. It’s a fruitless, heartless, illegal, and failed policy, causing grave harm to the Venezuelan people.'"

Socialism is what has devastated Venezuela and killed 40,000 people, moron.