The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), dealing with the trade of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW), is not in force yet.

The illicit trade in conventional arms and to prevent their diversion to the illicit market, or for unauthorized end use and end users, including in the commission of terrorist acts; and act constituting an offense under international conventions or protocols.

It goes without saying that in contemporary times, SALWs are the tools of choice in civil wars, organized crime, gang warfare and terrorist attacks, and insurgencies. They are well suited for these types of actions to use, to carry, and to conceal. Illicit flows of SALWs are the tools of choice for hostile activities to commence destabilization operations and regional security considerations.

(COMMENT)

To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis. The Israeli attempts at establishing containment and quarantine of the region to reduce access to such conventional weapons is part and parcel, a Chapter VII, Article 51, self-defense measure.

Wherein, the Arab Palestinian have continuously conducted hostile operations against the State of Israel, a recognized member of the UN, for the last 67 years, and have made no good faith effort to establish peaceful relations. Hostile Arab Palestinians elements under the official control of the Government for the State of Palestine have attempted to use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of the State of Israel, attempting to use bombings, attacks, indiscriminate rocket fire, kidnapping and murder as a forms of coercion threatening the political independence, citizenry, and territorial integrity of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R
To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.

So "smuggling" is just more Israeli bullshit.

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..
The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.

That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself.. There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.
 
Last edited:
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), dealing with the trade of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW), is not in force yet.

The illicit trade in conventional arms and to prevent their diversion to the illicit market, or for unauthorized end use and end users, including in the commission of terrorist acts; and act constituting an offense under international conventions or protocols.

It goes without saying that in contemporary times, SALWs are the tools of choice in civil wars, organized crime, gang warfare and terrorist attacks, and insurgencies. They are well suited for these types of actions to use, to carry, and to conceal. Illicit flows of SALWs are the tools of choice for hostile activities to commence destabilization operations and regional security considerations.

(COMMENT)

To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis. The Israeli attempts at establishing containment and quarantine of the region to reduce access to such conventional weapons is part and parcel, a Chapter VII, Article 51, self-defense measure.

Wherein, the Arab Palestinian have continuously conducted hostile operations against the State of Israel, a recognized member of the UN, for the last 67 years, and have made no good faith effort to establish peaceful relations. Hostile Arab Palestinians elements under the official control of the Government for the State of Palestine have attempted to use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of the State of Israel, attempting to use bombings, attacks, indiscriminate rocket fire, kidnapping and murder as a forms of coercion threatening the political independence, citizenry, and territorial integrity of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R
To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.

So "smuggling" is just more Israeli bullshit.

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..
The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.
You reinforce a host of negative stereotypes with the "I blame the Jooooooos and the Great Satan", for " Palestinian" Arab incompetence and ineptitude.
 
To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.

So "smuggling" is just more Israeli bullshit.

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..
The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.
You reinforce a host of negative stereotypes with the "I blame the Jooooooos and the Great Satan", for " Palestinian" Arab incompetence and ineptitude.
I don't. History does.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
The various squatters who Yassir Got Money Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way original sovereign.
 
To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.

So "smuggling" is just more Israeli bullshit.

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..
The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.

That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself.. There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.
There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.

And that is not going to happen as long as the regional superpower and the world superpower continue to pound on a defenseless civilian population.
 
Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...
 
The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..
The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.
You reinforce a host of negative stereotypes with the "I blame the Jooooooos and the Great Satan", for " Palestinian" Arab incompetence and ineptitude.
I don't. History does.
I can agree. History shows a pattern of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of the thieves and welfare cheats who call themselves "Palestinians".

It's become little more than a label for a bottomless pit of fraud, waste and a free pass for Islamic terrorism.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
The various squatters who Yassir Got Money Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way original sovereign.
Indeed, Arafat was the appointed, money sucking, oligarch in Palestine. So is Abbas. He is rich too.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
The various squatters who Yassir Got Money Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way original sovereign.
Indeed, Arafat was the appointed, money sucking, oligarch in Palestine. So is Abbas. He is rich too.

Man -- you're never happy with what the Palis do --- are ya? What do they have to do make YOU happy?
Remember that definition of "co-dependency I gave you? You have that disease badly.. Group therapy works sometimes. Maybe they should draft Hillary Clinton and her hubby..
 
Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...
There is a strong and growing Palestinian leadership. Most of them, however, do not live in Palestine.
 
Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...
There is a strong and growing Palestinian leadership. Most of them, however, do not live in Palestine.

Are you one of them? Why DONT they live in Palestine? Is this like the early Zionist leadership that directed THAT nationalistic movement from abroad? Cynthia McKinney is available. She's a Palestinian advocate. Draft her. Please....
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
The various squatters who Yassir Got Money Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way original sovereign.
Indeed, Arafat was the appointed, money sucking, oligarch in Palestine. So is Abbas. He is rich too.
P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.


And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
The various squatters who Yassir Got Money Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way original sovereign.
Indeed, Arafat was the appointed, money sucking, oligarch in Palestine. So is Abbas. He is rich too.
Typical for the welfare cheats who are the "Palestinians"

Gaza and Palestinian Leadership The More It Changes the More it Gets Worse Richard Z. Chesnoff

Repeat after me:

"I blame the Jooooooooos"

"I blame the Great Satan"

"Where's my welfare check"
 
Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...
There is a strong and growing Palestinian leadership. Most of them, however, do not live in Palestine.

Are you one of them? Why DONT they live in Palestine? Is this like the early Zionist leadership that directed THAT nationalistic movement from abroad? Cynthia McKinney is available. She's a Palestinian advocate. Draft her. Please....
Tinmore may consider placing a call to Suha "brother can you steal a few more million dollars for me" Arafat.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, for heavens sake. And I even numbered them for you.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​
I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.

And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
(COMMENT)

First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there. The "original sovereign in this case would have been the Ottoman Empire, that surrendered unconditionally to the Allied Powers. The Allied Powers assumed control through the process of "Cession." Nowhere in the transfer were the Palestine people ever addressed. Nowhere in the Armistice of Mudros, the Treaty of Sevres, or the Treaty of Lausanne, mention the inhabitance of the territory that was defined by the Allied Powers. Neither were the inhabitance mentions in terms of sovereignty or territorial compensation.

Second, "When a particular territory is not under the authority of any other state, a state can establish its sovereignty over such territory by occupation. The territory may never have belonged to any state, or it may have been abandoned by the previous sovereign. The PCIJ ( permanent court of international justice) held that the occupation to be effective must consist of the following two elements:

(i) intention to occupy. Such intention must be formally expressed and it must be permanent.
(ii) occupation should be peaceful, continuous.

Now this is kind of interesting. This is the order of events.

APR 1950: The West Bank is Annexed by Jordan.
JUN 1967: Israel occupies the West Bank; and it becomes Israel occupied territory of Jordan.
JUL 1988: King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. The sovereignty abandons the West Bank, and Israel now Effectively Occupies the Politically Abandon Territory.
NOV 1988: PLO Declares Independence of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Capital in Jerusalem.
It will become interesting to see when the ICC (International Criminal Court) defines the critical point, that becomes the time in which the understanding of the conditions are set. Would that be the Treaty dates with Egypt (1979) for the Gaza Strip; and the Treaty dates with Jordan (1994) pertaining to the West Bank. Or would it be the end of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, --- or --- when?

And would there be an argument that today's Palestine Arab is capable of effectively understanding and articulating the agreements and interpretations of 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 years ago? Once the Provisional Government of Israel declared Independence and then had to defend that action against the Arab Coalition Army, was that a defining moment?

We simply don't know.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
15th post
P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, for heavens sake. And I even numbered them for you.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​
I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.

And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
(COMMENT)

First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there. The "original sovereign in this case would have been the Ottoman Empire, that surrendered unconditionally to the Allied Powers. The Allied Powers assumed control through the process of "Cession." Nowhere in the transfer were the Palestine people ever addressed. Nowhere in the Armistice of Mudros, the Treaty of Sevres, or the Treaty of Lausanne, mention the inhabitance of the territory that was defined by the Allied Powers. Neither were the inhabitance mentions in terms of sovereignty or territorial compensation.

Second, "When a particular territory is not under the authority of any other state, a state can establish its sovereignty over such territory by occupation. The territory may never have belonged to any state, or it may have been abandoned by the previous sovereign. The PCIJ ( permanent court of international justice) held that the occupation to be effective must consist of the following two elements:

(i) intention to occupy. Such intention must be formally expressed and it must be permanent.
(ii) occupation should be peaceful, continuous.

Now this is kind of interesting. This is the order of events.

APR 1950: The West Bank is Annexed by Jordan.
JUN 1967: Israel occupies the West Bank; and it becomes Israel occupied territory of Jordan.
JUL 1988: King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. The sovereignty abandons the West Bank, and Israel now Effectively Occupies the Politically Abandon Territory.
NOV 1988: PLO Declares Independence of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Capital in Jerusalem.
It will become interesting to see when the ICC (International Criminal Court) defines the critical point, that becomes the time in which the understanding of the conditions are set. Would that be the Treaty dates with Egypt (1979) for the Gaza Strip; and the Treaty dates with Jordan (1994) pertaining to the West Bank. Or would it be the end of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, --- or --- when?

And would there be an argument that today's Palestine Arab is capable of effectively understanding and articulating the agreements and interpretations of 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 years ago? Once the Provisional Government of Israel declared Independence and then had to defend that action against the Arab Coalition Army, was that a defining moment?

We simply don't know.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, Rocco, you are not making any sense. Let's break this down with facts.

The Treaty of Sevres was never adopted because the Ottoman Empire disappeared and the Turkish Republic under the leadership of Ataturk was able to evict the Allied occupation forces defeat the Ottoman loyalists and defeated the invading Greeks in the west and the invading Armenians on the east who believed they would be able to divide Anatolian Turkey among themselves. It is called the War of Turkish Independence. Just as a note, had the Treaty of Sevres been adopted, Turkey would not be in Europe today, as all the Turkish land in Europe today would have been taken from the Ottomans.

Turkey ceded lands outside of the defined territory of Turkey via the Treaty of Lausanne adopted after the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed.

Hence, the only legal instrument that granted Britain control of Palestine was the Mandate and the Mandate did not imply sovereignty for Britain, but a holding in trust for the inhabitants, i.e. the Palestinians.

So your claim that the Palestinians were not "mentioned" is false.
 
montelatici, et al,

About the only part of that you got correct is that Ataturk and the Turkish Government was the successor.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, for heavens sake. And I even numbered them for you.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​
I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.

And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
(COMMENT)

First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there. The "original sovereign in this case would have been the Ottoman Empire, that surrendered unconditionally to the Allied Powers. The Allied Powers assumed control through the process of "Cession." Nowhere in the transfer were the Palestine people ever addressed. Nowhere in the Armistice of Mudros, the Treaty of Sevres, or the Treaty of Lausanne, mention the inhabitance of the territory that was defined by the Allied Powers. Neither were the inhabitance mentions in terms of sovereignty or territorial compensation.

Second, "When a particular territory is not under the authority of any other state, a state can establish its sovereignty over such territory by occupation. The territory may never have belonged to any state, or it may have been abandoned by the previous sovereign. The PCIJ ( permanent court of international justice) held that the occupation to be effective must consist of the following two elements:

(i) intention to occupy. Such intention must be formally expressed and it must be permanent.
(ii) occupation should be peaceful, continuous.

Now this is kind of interesting. This is the order of events.

APR 1950: The West Bank is Annexed by Jordan.
JUN 1967: Israel occupies the West Bank; and it becomes Israel occupied territory of Jordan.
JUL 1988: King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. The sovereignty abandons the West Bank, and Israel now Effectively Occupies the Politically Abandon Territory.
NOV 1988: PLO Declares Independence of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Capital in Jerusalem.
It will become interesting to see when the ICC (International Criminal Court) defines the critical point, that becomes the time in which the understanding of the conditions are set. Would that be the Treaty dates with Egypt (1979) for the Gaza Strip; and the Treaty dates with Jordan (1994) pertaining to the West Bank. Or would it be the end of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, --- or --- when?

And would there be an argument that today's Palestine Arab is capable of effectively understanding and articulating the agreements and interpretations of 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 years ago? Once the Provisional Government of Israel declared Independence and then had to defend that action against the Arab Coalition Army, was that a defining moment?

We simply don't know.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, Rocco, you are not making any sense. Let's break this down with facts.

The Treaty of Sevres was never adopted because the Ottoman Empire disappeared and the Turkish Republic under the leadership of Ataturk was able to evict the Allied occupation forces defeat the Ottoman loyalists and defeated the invading Greeks in the west and the invading Armenians on the east who believed they would be able to divide Anatolian Turkey among themselves. It is called the War of Turkish Independence. Just as a note, had the Treaty of Sevres been adopted, Turkey would not be in Europe today, as all the Turkish land in Europe today would have been taken from the Ottomans.

Turkey ceded lands outside of the defined territory of Turkey via the Treaty of Lausanne adopted after the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed.

Hence, the only legal instrument that granted Britain control of Palestine was the Mandate and the Mandate did not imply sovereignty for Britain, but a holding in trust for the inhabitants, i.e. the Palestinians.

So your claim that the Palestinians were not "mentioned" is false.
(REFERENCE)

I would recommend you listen to the UN International Law lecture by Prof Malcolm Shaw, Professor of International Law, University of Leicester. You will notice that even though the Treaty is no longer applicable, it is a precedence on the intent of the border issues and delineation, in cases of ambiguity and for clarity. He makes this plain. The Treaty of Sevres clearly stakes-out the final territory of Turkey; it would not have disappeared (that is pure supposition on someone's part).

Remember, the same Powers that wrote the Treaty of Sevres with the Ottoman Empire, also wrote the Treaty of Lausanne with Turkey.

In the Treaty of Lausanne said:
Article 3 points out Syria. AND Article 16 is the renunciation:

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

(COMMENT)

The idea that Turkey did not transfer all rights and title to territories situated outside the frontiers of Turkey, to the Allied Powers (and appropriate Associate Powers) is simply ridiculous. In fact, the Treaty of Lausanne is much less restrictive over the concerned territory than the Treaty of Sevres. Although the Mudros Armistice with the Ottoman Empire was "unconditional" -- much more draconian.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
^^^^

There goes MonkeyNazi mutilating documents and making up shit, only to be publicly humiliated once again.
 
montelatici, et al,

About the only part of that you got correct is that Ataturk and the Turkish Government was the successor.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, for heavens sake. And I even numbered them for you.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are confused. When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?
Ans Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​

Or! Stated another way:

Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
A number of methods of acquisition of sovereignty are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
Prescription

Prescription is related to occupation, and refers to the acquisition of sovereignty by way of the actual exercise of sovereignty, maintained for a reasonable period of time, that is effected without objection from other states.

Prescription, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign. It is analogous to the common law doctrine of easement by prescription for private real estate. This doctrine legalizes de jure the de facto transfer of sovereignty caused in part by the original sovereign's extended negligence and/or neglect of the area in question.

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.
(REMEMBERING)

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable. Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two. Just to name a few of the anomalies:
  • Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
  • The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
  • Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
  • Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
  • India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
  • Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
  • China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
  • Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go. The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"... That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:
  • From the Preamble: "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
  • Chapter I Article 2(4): "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
(COMMENT)

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "Cession."

Most Respectfully,
R
Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

Prescription
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.

And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.
(COMMENT)

First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there. The "original sovereign in this case would have been the Ottoman Empire, that surrendered unconditionally to the Allied Powers. The Allied Powers assumed control through the process of "Cession." Nowhere in the transfer were the Palestine people ever addressed. Nowhere in the Armistice of Mudros, the Treaty of Sevres, or the Treaty of Lausanne, mention the inhabitance of the territory that was defined by the Allied Powers. Neither were the inhabitance mentions in terms of sovereignty or territorial compensation.

Second, "When a particular territory is not under the authority of any other state, a state can establish its sovereignty over such territory by occupation. The territory may never have belonged to any state, or it may have been abandoned by the previous sovereign. The PCIJ ( permanent court of international justice) held that the occupation to be effective must consist of the following two elements:

(i) intention to occupy. Such intention must be formally expressed and it must be permanent.
(ii) occupation should be peaceful, continuous.

Now this is kind of interesting. This is the order of events.

APR 1950: The West Bank is Annexed by Jordan.
JUN 1967: Israel occupies the West Bank; and it becomes Israel occupied territory of Jordan.
JUL 1988: King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. The sovereignty abandons the West Bank, and Israel now Effectively Occupies the Politically Abandon Territory.
NOV 1988: PLO Declares Independence of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Capital in Jerusalem.
It will become interesting to see when the ICC (International Criminal Court) defines the critical point, that becomes the time in which the understanding of the conditions are set. Would that be the Treaty dates with Egypt (1979) for the Gaza Strip; and the Treaty dates with Jordan (1994) pertaining to the West Bank. Or would it be the end of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, --- or --- when?

And would there be an argument that today's Palestine Arab is capable of effectively understanding and articulating the agreements and interpretations of 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 years ago? Once the Provisional Government of Israel declared Independence and then had to defend that action against the Arab Coalition Army, was that a defining moment?

We simply don't know.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, Rocco, you are not making any sense. Let's break this down with facts.

The Treaty of Sevres was never adopted because the Ottoman Empire disappeared and the Turkish Republic under the leadership of Ataturk was able to evict the Allied occupation forces defeat the Ottoman loyalists and defeated the invading Greeks in the west and the invading Armenians on the east who believed they would be able to divide Anatolian Turkey among themselves. It is called the War of Turkish Independence. Just as a note, had the Treaty of Sevres been adopted, Turkey would not be in Europe today, as all the Turkish land in Europe today would have been taken from the Ottomans.

Turkey ceded lands outside of the defined territory of Turkey via the Treaty of Lausanne adopted after the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed.

Hence, the only legal instrument that granted Britain control of Palestine was the Mandate and the Mandate did not imply sovereignty for Britain, but a holding in trust for the inhabitants, i.e. the Palestinians.

So your claim that the Palestinians were not "mentioned" is false.
(REFERENCE)

I would recommend you listen to the UN International Law lecture by Prof Malcolm Shaw, Professor of International Law, University of Leicester. You will notice that even though the Treaty is no longer applicable, it is a precedence on the intent of the border issues and delineation, in cases of ambiguity and for clarity. He makes this plain. The Treaty of Sevres clearly stakes-out the final territory of Turkey; it would not have disappeared (that is pure supposition on someone's part).

Remember, the same Powers that wrote the Treaty of Sevres with the Ottoman Empire, also wrote the Treaty of Lausanne with Turkey.

In the Treaty of Lausanne said:
Article 3 points out Syria. AND Article 16 is the renunciation:

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

(COMMENT)

The idea that Turkey did not transfer all rights and title to territories situated outside the frontiers of Turkey, to the Allied Powers (and appropriate Associate Powers) is simply ridiculous. In fact, the Treaty of Lausanne is much less restrictive over the concerned territory than the Treaty of Sevres. Although the Mudros Armistice with the Ottoman Empire was "unconditional" -- much more draconian.

Most Respectfully,
R

I got it all right Rocco. You can deflect all you want, but I have forgotten more than you will ever learn. Trust me.
 

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