The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[aris2chat]

^^^^^
Actually Rocco is a truly unbiased, informed and educated poster who simply posts facts. Which is why the MonkeyNazi resorted to insulting Rocco, just for posting the truth.

Our UN legal encyclopedia
He is a wealth of legal facts and references

 

[flacaltenn]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.

That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself.. There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.

Your Congress meets because there are no checkpoints in Washington DC, Congressmen don't have to worry about being killed by drone strikes or smart bombs. And Americans don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required, true. In Palestine that's what the Zionist Israelis do, kill the winners so their lapdogs remain in power. That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.

A terrorist related organization, OPENLY advocating the demise of Israel -- is kind of a non-starter for negotiations or normalization of relations.. And MANY of the Hamas legislators had RECENT reasons to be detained or prosecuted. It's one of those "consequences" of the Pali decisions that you cheerleaders just won't seem to accept. They don't CARE about making things better. They don't CARE about building a prosperous and safe Palestine.

Given the same result in a JORDANIAN administered West Bank -- they would have done the same. Or WORSE.

Ask Egypt. After all, those are really the previous "titled" holders to land that COULD be Palestine.

 

[aris2chat]

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.

That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself.. There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.

Your Congress meets because there are no checkpoints in Washington DC, Congressmen don't have to worry about being killed by drone strikes or smart bombs. And Americans don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required, true. In Palestine that's what the Zionist Israelis do, kill the winners so their lapdogs remain in power. That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.

No checkpoints in Gaza, dufus.

actually hamas has set up checkpoints inside gaza to find and control IS

Tensions increase between Hamas Salafists - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East

 

[Phoenall]

Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.

That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself.. There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.

Your Congress meets because there are no checkpoints in Washington DC, Congressmen don't have to worry about being killed by drone strikes or smart bombs. And Americans don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required, true. In Palestine that's what the Zionist Israelis do, kill the winners so their lapdogs remain in power. That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.

No checkpoints in Gaza, dufus.

Apart from those run by hamas, and they shoot fatah members on sight

 

[flacaltenn]

Moderation Note:

Thread is getting a bit contentious. And wandering off the specific topic of sanctions and blockades and protests
against them and the reasons for and against. Not time to close yet.. But when the topic is used up -- the poking and personal abuse tends to go up rapidly..

Before you post -- Ask yourself if the CONTENT moves the topic forward in a useful way. Please flame responsibly...

 

[Phoenall]

...That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.

Sounds like those last remaining Arab squatters on Israeli land would be better off packing up and moving someplace more safe for them.

I'm sure that would make the Zionist colonisers very happy; the native people being marched off onto "reservations" or becoming a new Diaspora. Problem is, it's not Israeli land and never has been, it's not even exclusively Jewish land and never has been; and the only squatters there are the European Zionist colonists and settlers.

So International law in Israel's favour does not exist now, is that what you are saying. And I see you still use Zionist out of context and in a racist manner.

LoN mandate of Palestine clearly delineates the borders of the proposed national home of the Jews as the 22% of Palestine left after the Saudi prince was paid off with his 78% of Palestine. This entered into international law and became inviolate, so the UN should be enforcing this law through the ICC/ICJ and armed task forces

 

[Kondor3]

Have we figured out yet that the omnipotent Turkish Navy was as useless as a screen door in a submarine, in protecting the so-called Humanitarian Flotilla?

Perhaps the Palestinian Navy will lend a hand next time - 8 rowboats, 17 fishing trawlers, 18 motorized rubber rafts, and a hi-speed racer - a mighty force, indeed.

( oh yeah... and those 5 kayaks they stole from Dick's Sporting Goods in BumPhukk, NewJersey, too )

 

[Phoenall]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

 

[Phoenall]

Have we figured out yet that the omnipotent Turkish Navy was as useless as a screen door in a submarine, in protecting the so-called Humanitarian Flotilla?

Perhaps the Palestinian Navy will lend a hand next time - 8 rowboats, 17 fishing trawlers, 18 motorized rubber rafts, and a hi-speed racer - a mighty force, indeed.

( oh yeah... and those 5 kayaks they stole from Dick's Sporting Goods in BumPhukk, NewJersey, too )

Don't most deckhands for submarines come from turkey ? That could be why they had no boats in the area as the caotain ordered his deckhands to make sure the decks where clean so they opened the doors.

 

[flacaltenn]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?

 

[Phoenall]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?

It was around about the time of operation Cast Lead, and hamas admitted that it was so they could train the next generation and build up their weapons arsenal.

Some links to the proposal

What are Israel s reasons for turning down Hamas s offer for a 10 year truce - Quora

Report Hamas discussing 5-year truce - Israel News Ynetnews

Defiant Gaza militants vow to rearm amid shaky truce - Business Insider

 

[P F Tinmore]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?

This is a ten year old offer.

A truce is referred to in Arabic as a “hudna.” Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences. The Koran finds great merit in such efforts at promoting understanding among different people. Whereas war dehumanizes the enemy and makes it easier to kill, a hudna affords the opportunity to humanize one’s opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/opinion/01yousef.html?_r=0

 

[flacaltenn]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?

This is a ten year old offer.

A truce is referred to in Arabic as a “hudna.” Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences. The Koran finds great merit in such efforts at promoting understanding among different people. Whereas war dehumanizes the enemy and makes it easier to kill, a hudna affords the opportunity to humanize one’s opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/opinion/01yousef.html?_r=0

Yeah... That's comical.. Combine that with the Hamas Charter and the Hamas 2005 "Platform" and these quotes from the guy's boss..

We promise you that we will not cede a single part of Palestine, we will not cede Jerusalem, we will continue to fight and we will not lay down our arms.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote

We repeat today that we are with the establishment of a Palestinian state on any liberated part of Palestinian land that is agreed upon by the Palestinian people, without recognizing Israel or conceding any inch of historical Palestine.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote

The Palestinian people do not beg the world for a state, and the state can't be created through decisions and initiatives. States liberate their land first and then the political body can be established.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote

You make Hudna with Diplomats and representatives of the people. Not guys like this...
Why don't you post that 2005 platform for Hamas AGAIN P.F.??? Just to remind yourself what a difference one year apparently makes in the "mood" of Hamas...

 

[Hollie]

Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..

So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.

I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.

It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal

Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?

This is a ten year old offer.

A truce is referred to in Arabic as a “hudna.” Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences. The Koran finds great merit in such efforts at promoting understanding among different people. Whereas war dehumanizes the enemy and makes it easier to kill, a hudna affords the opportunity to humanize one’s opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/opinion/01yousef.html?_r=0

For a hudna is not a "truce" in the Western sense of that word. As Dr. Denis MacEoin, writing in the Middle East Quarterly has observed, thereare more thanseven other Arabic words for truce or cease-fire in Arabic. A better understanding of the full cultural baggage attached to hudna is necessary in order to grasp what Marzouk has really said:

A hudna is always temporary, and not for a duration of more than ten years. As a concept, it does not carry within it the potential to develop into a full peace. Rather, it is arrived at during times of Muslim weakness, when it is perceived as desirable to seek a respite from open hostilities.

Historically hudna is associated with the Truce of al-Hudaybiyya in the seventh century. Muhammad and his followers had abandoned Mecca to non-Muslims because they did not have sufficient strength to hold it. At Hudaybiyya, a truce was negotiated that was to permit the Muslims to return unarmed to Mecca annually for the next ten years for purposes of religious pilgrimage. Two years later, however, using an infraction of the agreement as a pretext, Muhammad and his followers, who then had sufficient strength, moved in and took Mecca; its residents, believing they had a truce with Muhammad, were unprepared to do battle.

This is the model: When weak, strike a temporary truce, utilize the time to regroup and garner additional strength, and then move in.

Once this is understood, then a hudna with Hamas must be viewed as tactically a negative for Israeli defense. When there is no hudna in force, Israel is able to act for security purposes, hitting a rocket launching site there, a tunnel from which arms are smuggled there.



Read more: Blog Really Missing the Point on Hudna

 

[flacaltenn]

Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..

Hamas - 2006 Electoral Campaign Platform - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

1. Islam is our Reference.

2. Palestine is Arab and Muslim Land.

3. Palestinians are one nation regardless of location.

4. The Palestinian People are still in the process of National Liberation and have the right to use all means including armed struggle to achieve this goal.
5. The right of return to all Palestinians.

6. Adherence to the inalienable rights of the people.

7. Protect and cement National Unity as a priority.

8. The issue of prisoners and detainees tops the agenda ; on the internal policy level the C&R aims at achieving a great number of objectives - among them: Maintaining Palestinian fixed National Aims; Palestinian presence in Jerusalem; political freedom; dialogue as a means to solving internal differences; freedom of expression; assembling movement.

9. The platform of the C&R prohibits: Political detention; shedding Palestinian blood; protection of civil society; directing the security apparatus to safeguarding the security of the citizens.

Among other things the Platform calls for protecting the "Resistance" and enhancing its role to resist Occupation and achieve Liberation.


WEEELLLL .. So much for Palestinian unity or prohibiting "political detention, shedding Palestinian blood, or protection of civil society" ======= THAT -- was 2005. And in 2006, some assistant to the Prime Minister calls for peace and negotiations??????

I thought OUR foreign policy was schizophrenic.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....

Ismail Haniya Fast Facts - CNN.com


May 2, 2011 - Condemns the assassination of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, referring to him as a Muslim holy warrior and the victim of American oppression.

October 23, 2012 - Meets with the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, the first official head of state to visit since Egypt and Israel instituted a blockade in 2007.

April 4, 2013 - Haniya is appointed deputy head of Hamas, and Khaled Meshaal is re-elected chief.

There's your Hamas leadership P.F... Hudna or not Hudna? Condemning the USA for the assassination of bin Laden.. A GREAT Muslim holy warrior...

Did that cease-fire offer appear ANYWHERE other than the NYTimes Op Ed page??

 

[Hollie]

The Avalon Project Hamas Covenant 1988

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The Avalon Project Hamas Covenant 1988

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

monte and Tinmore keep on saying that Christians are so integral to the Palestinians. Yet, in all their charters, I have only seen the words "Arab" and "Muslim".

 

[montelatici]

Christian Palestinians do not support Hamas they support the PLO. The Palestinian National Charter is what Christian Palestinians adhere to. The only mention of religion is in Article 6.

"Article 6:
The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians."

The Avalon Project The Palestinian National Charter

35% of the Palestinians within Palestine and the Diaspora are Christians.