The Government and Universal Healthcare

[Yukon]

Government administered Health Care/Medicare for everyone is a communist inspired, anti-american concept and it proves that every country in the western world is communist except for the USA. On the otherhand handing over trillions of taxpayer dollars to Wall Street Bankers is American capitalism at its best.............is there not something wrong with this?

 

[DiamondDave]

Funny... you don't see conservatives screaming that bank bailouts are a good thing...

Nice try... but go see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

 

[Chris]

Government administered Health Care/Medicare for everyone is a communist inspired, anti-american concept and it proves that every country in the western world is communist except for the USA. On the otherhand handing over trillions of taxpayer dollars to Wall Street Bankers is American capitalism at its best.............is there not something wrong with this?

Are these guys dumb or what?

 

[Andrew2382]

A lot of people are on the bandwagon thinking that Universal Healthcare will be the greatest thing to happen to this country since the industrial revolution. It is just one step closer to be a socialistic society and taking a step that has known massive failures all around the world.

There are many countries that use this sort of socialistic health program however; they have their problems as well. Once we are in a society that has a Universal healthcare program established, you will see many things change in the things we were accustomed too.

Let's take a good look to the best example our wonderful tundra to the north, Canada.

http://www.fraserinstitut...newsrelease.aspx?nID=4967


"Ontario recorded the shortest waiting time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment), at 15 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada"

25 weeks to see your MD. We complain about having to wait 45 minutes in the doctor's office.

How about the wait tile from the MD to a specialist?

"The First Wait: Between General Practitioner and Specialist Consultation

The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks), and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).

The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland (13.5 weeks), and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks)."

I can also site examples of cases where people have gone to their MD about let's say a
"Headache" and have to wait 3 months to see a specialist and in those 3 months die.

It isn't pretty.

Let's say you finally get to that specialist and you need to get an MRI or a CAT scan...Well, I know I myself won't have to wait more then a few days here to get one. Go to Canada.

"The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia had the shortest wait for CT scans (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Manitoba (8 weeks). The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland residents waited longest (20 weeks). The median wait for ultrasound was 3.9 weeks across Canada. Alberta and Ontario displayed the shortest wait for ultrasound (2 weeks), while Prince Edward Island and Manitoba exhibited the longest ultrasound waiting time (10 weeks)."

8 weeks for a cat scan? 20 weeks for an MRI? Are you serious? Is this what people actually want for our great country, having to wait 5 months to receive an MRI?

If Universal healthcare is so great, why didn't Ted Kennedy receive his treatment in Canada or Cuba? He didn't, he received the best treatment money can buy.

Let's take a swim across the ocean to our wonderful allies in England.

How many people have died because the government won't pay for a certain type of medication because it is

A- Too Expensive
B- Only meant to extend life.


Look at these examples:
http://www.nypost.com/sev...would_kill_ted_114032.htm

"Problem is, governments that promise to "cover everyone" always wind up cutting corners simply to save money. People with Kennedy's condition are dying or dead as a result.

Consider Jennifer Bell of Norwich, England. In 2006, the 22-year-old complained of headaches for months - but Britain's National Health Service made her wait a year to see a neurologist.

Then she had to wait more than three months before should could get what the NHS decided was only a "relatively urgent" MRI scan. Three days before the MRI appointment, she died.

Consider, too, the chemo drug Kennedy is receiving: Temodar, the first oral medicine for brain tumors in 25 years.

Temodar has been widely used in this country since the FDA approved it in 2000. But a British health-care rationing agency, the National Institute for Comparative Effectiveness, ruled that, while the drug helps people live longer, it wasn't worth the money - and denied coverage for it.

Barack Obama - and other Democrats - have been pushing a Senate bill to set up a similar US "review board" for Medicare and any future government health-care plan.

After denying this treatment completely for seven years, the NICE (did whoever named it intend the irony?) relented - partly. Even today, only a handful of Brits with brain tumors can get Temodar.

And if you want to pay for Temodar out of your own pocket, the British system forces you to pay for all of your cancer care - about $30,000 a month. "

30 grand a month, just to be able to live a little longer. God Save The Queen, I hope God has his own personal PPO.

Here is another example from that article from Canada again-

"Things are no different in Canada, where the wait for an MRI (once you finally get a referral) has grown to 10 weeks. For Canadians relying on their government health care, the average wait time from diagnosis of cancer to surgery is beyond the guideline set by both the US and European societies for surgical oncology.

And Health Canada, the government system, similar refuses to pay for treatments that are often covered in America.

Chad Curley, a 37-year-old auto worker from Windsor, Ontario, had a brain tumor like Kennedy's but can't have surgery because his is too large to be operable.

His tumor didn't respond to Temodar and the same doctors now treating Sen. Kennedy told him and his wife that the Avastin combination could stop his tumor from growing and add months to his life. But Health Canada wouldn't pay to use Avastin to treat his tumor.

Chad's family and friends scraped together the $5,000 for the first round of treatment in mid-November; they later saw Chad's left-side paralysis start to subside. But the money ran out - and he died on Feb. 21."

There is a new term going around these days, perhaps many people are not familiar with it. It is called "Medical Tourism". Basically it means a person from Canada, England etc... come to a country like the United States and on their 'vacation', BOOM I need a knee replacement. Happens constantly.

Medical tourism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"While much attention has been given to the growing trend of U.S. citizens seeking health care in other countries, other evidence points out that the largest segment of medical travelers are headed stateside.["

Now, the main argument is everyone deserves insurance and to be covered and we have something like 45 million uninsured.

Well let us take a look at that a little more closely...

HOW COVERAGE VARIES



Illegal immigrants are less likely to have health coverage than others:

Adults

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
14%



Legal immigrants
25%



Illegal immigrants
59%




Children

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
9%



Citizens whose parents are legal immigrants
13%



Foreign-born children of legal immigrants
25%



Citizens with illegal immigrant parents
25%



Foreign-born children of illegal immigrants
53%




Source: Pew Hispanic Center, 2005


So, to sum it up
in Adults you have 59% of the uninsured are illegal immigrants compared to 14% US citizens

Children- 53% Foreign born children of Illegal Immigrants and 25% of citizens with illegal immigrants. Compared to 9% US citizens.

Seems to me we have an immigration problem, not so much a healthcare problem.

And when it comes to premiums, I have said this many times myself, premiums are individually based. I am in the Insurance business (not medical). However, if you smoke and weigh 300 pounds then yes you are going to pay more. The problem in this country is obesity and quite frankly no one takes care of themselves anymore, and the insurance companies are on the hook. You know a lot of companies out there, Humana being one of them will pay your gym membership.

Say NO to Universal Healthcare!

 

[Chris]

Hey Andrew,

We already have universal healthcare, just a really, really bad version of it. Everyone can be treated in the emergency room. We don't let people bleed to death on the street here. Not yet, anyway. So the rich get great healthcare, and the poor get no healthcare until they are at death's door. Does that sound like a good way to run a society? No, it doesn't. The ironic thing is that every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance companies, and Big Pharma. There are inherent cost savings with a single payer system. The Germans have had one since 1886!

With a single payer system you would still pick your doctor, and your doctor would still own his practice. There would just be one insurance company, and that would be the government.

 

[Andrew2382]

Hey Andrew,

We already have universal healthcare, just a really, really bad version of it. Everyone can be treated in the emergency room. We don't let people bleed to death on the street here. Not yet, anyway. So the rich get great healthcare, and the poor get no healthcare until they are at death's door. Does that sound like a good way to run a society? No, it doesn't. The ironic thing is that every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance companies, and Big Pharma. There are inherent cost savings with a single payer system. The Germans have had one since 1886!

With a single payer system you would still pick your doctor, and your doctor would still own his practice. There would just be one insurance company, and that would be the government.

Yeah they might pay less per capita but the level of care is worse...

Also, comparing emergency hospital care to Universal healthcare for everyone is abusrd.

And also you are right in one sense we do have versions of universal health

Medicare/Medicaid

Those programs are doing great right!

 

[DiveCon]

Government administered Health Care/Medicare for everyone is a communist inspired, anti-american concept and it proves that every country in the western world is communist except for the USA. On the otherhand handing over trillions of taxpayer dollars to Wall Street Bankers is American capitalism at its best.............is there not something wrong with this?

Are these guys dumb or what?

no, YOU are the dumb fuck
no conservative supported that bank bailout either
thats the point you morons keep missing, they are BOTH wrong

 

[Yukon]

Go to any hospital and tell them you need a Heart By-Pass operation but you dont have any insurance. See if they do it for you.

 

[Meister]

Go to any hospital and tell them you need a Heart By-Pass operation but you dont have any insurance. See if they do it for you.

Go to your hospital, and they'll tell you to take a number. I've seen how your system works. It's all about a waiting game on each test before the big cut. What needs to get done in 4 weeks might take 4 months. But, keep trying Yukon...you make everyone's case on this forum.

 

[DiveCon]

Go to any hospital and tell them you need a Heart By-Pass operation but you dont have any insurance. See if they do it for you.

if you came through my door and told me that, I'd tell you to go see your primary doctor and ask him to get you help
if you don't have one, how do you know you need such an operation?
if you need help getting healthcare, check www.medicare.gov they have links to help for every state

 

[johnrocks]

Go to any hospital and tell them you need a Heart By-Pass operation but you dont have any insurance. See if they do it for you.

I heard your dog can get treated quicker in Canada than humans can, is that true?

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's a very reasonable cost of health care, of course.

Now what happens when you REALLY get sick?

What happens is that you do what you can... instead of thinking that it is someone else's responsibility

In other words 99% of the population dies the first time they have a serious illness.

Good plan!

Oh, yeah. Because that's what happened before health insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, etc. were invented. Oh, wait. It's not.

Fortunately for the world at large, most people are not as lazy and helpless and unable to care for themselves as you are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That 45% or more that government provides along with the managed care and third party payors is what's driven health care up, not free markets.

I actually mostly agree with that premise, JR.

Now the fact that the government took on responsibility for paying for millions of us has GOT to be causing an increase in costs because that is one of those market forces that simple exists.

Additionally better HC (thanks to changes in medicine) are driving up costs.

Additionally the fact that Americans are getting older, is ALSO driving up the cost of health care, too.

I can go to a free market Doctor and pay $50 office visits, I can go to nurse practitioner clinics on nights and weekends for $40, the shots and tests are anywhere from $5 for a blood glucose test to $40 for more elaborate tests and shots, my hospital is covered for $70 a month, I can get my blood work done at a free market lab for $10-$50 so the free market clearly is very competitive. The free market is like any other, they strive to provide the best for the least cost where government payments give incentives to charge the most or any other type program where the consumer isn't responsible for the cost.

Here I'm afraid we have to disagree somewhat.

HC purchasing decisions is NOT like purchasing decisions in other markets.

Substitution or deciding that you can do without is not really something most people can do when it comes to HC.

And when you go into a store to buy most products, the salesman isn't the guy telling you what you MUST have, either. OTOH, you doctor most definitely IS the guy deciding what services you'll be buying, true?

Micro Economist after micro-economist has proven this to the satisfaction of everyone who studies the business of health care. My MBA was specialized in the BUSINESS of health care, so about this subject I know a little of what I speak.

Now that is NOT to say that market forces do not ALSO effect the cost of HC, but buying an apendectomy is not very much like deciding what TV to buy or what car to buy.

Actually, most people DO make substitutions and decide to do without when it comes to healthcare they're paying for. You never noticed, for example, your pharmacy offering you the generic brand instead of the name brand on your medications? You didn't know that people decide not to run to the doctor with every sniffle and cough when they have to foot the bill for the visit?

Shopping for health care would be just like shopping for any other important necessity in life if it were actually possible to treat it like just another commodity.

 

[Chris]

Like you said earlier, price controls, we are the release valve so to speak since most others if not all have controls, what would happen if ours were capped?

not sure where you are going with this

are you saying the prices are higher here because the government is making them charge more?

No, governments elsewhere cap the prices so they charge more here to recoup the costs and make a profit.

Big Pharma has the highest profit margin of any industry.

 

[johnrocks]

not sure where you are going with this

are you saying the prices are higher here because the government is making them charge more?

No, governments elsewhere cap the prices so they charge more here to recoup the costs and make a profit.

Big Pharma has the highest profit margin of any industry.

This is dated 2005 but interesting nonetheless.

Price control

Pharmaceutical companies have to operate in a highly regulated environment; the degree of regulation to a significant extent depends on the country and type of the product.

One of the most important aspects of government regulation for pharmaceutical companies is price regulation, and different countries have different policies on this issue.

In the United States – the largest and the most attractive pharmaceutical market – currently there is no direct price control for non-government drug sales. At the same time, it is expected that Medicare Prescription Drug Improvement and Modernization Act will potentially increase downward price pressure.

The majority of European countries control drug prices, and this downward pressure on prices has been increasing during last years. Japan has even stricter price controls than European countries; all prices are controlled by the government, and they are subject to a periodic price review.

As the result of price control, prices of the same products can significantly differ in different countries.
Pharmaceutical industry

 

[Chris]

A lot of healthcare in this country seems like a scam to sell people drugs they don't need, like antibiotics for viral infections or ADD medicine for kids that don't need them.

 

[elvis]

A lot of healthcare in this country seems like a scam to sell people drugs they don't need, like antibiotics for viral infections or ADD medicine for kids that don't need them.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

 

[DiveCon]

A lot of healthcare in this country seems like a scam to sell people drugs they don't need, like antibiotics for viral infections or ADD medicine for kids that don't need them.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

i think we just solved the mystery of what made chris the way he is
he was diagnosed with ADD as a child and they gave him too many of those drugs

 

[elvis]

A lot of healthcare in this country seems like a scam to sell people drugs they don't need, like antibiotics for viral infections or ADD medicine for kids that don't need them.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

i think we just solved the mystery of what made chris the way he is
he was diagnosed with ADD as a child and they gave him too many of those drugs

he could be schizo. that could explain why he goes by chris and kirky.

and lewinsky

 

[Cecilie1200]

A lot of healthcare in this country seems like a scam to sell people drugs they don't need, like antibiotics for viral infections or ADD medicine for kids that don't need them.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

i think we just solved the mystery of what made chris the way he is
he was diagnosed with ADD as a child and they gave him too many of those drugs

Or not enough, one of the two.