The glaring evidence that Obamacare is a catastrophic FAILURE continues to mount

[BlackSand]

PMS simply runs in circles with its words and throws out "Fox News" as if it's making a salient point...it feels its "opinions" are facts and therefore indisputable.

When it's cornered it acts as if it has won something and pretends to feel sorry for you.

I kind of figured that out about two days ago.
But hey ... I like tossing the ball out in the backyard ... And watching my dog bring it back, even though I know what is going to happen.
The dog gets exercise ... My throwing arm gets better ... And we both have fun playing fetch.

Edit: The only difference is that sooner or later the dog gets tired.
.

 

[beagle9]

Fox Opinions every time you turn it on tells that you are superior, and those "others", the scapegoats, are decidedly inferior, and stealing from you, and that's why you are entitled to lots more comfort than they. Big luxurious cars, houses, fashion, vacations, furnishings.

They drag you around by the nose everyday and you follow happily, while visions of sugarplums dance in your head. More for me, more for me, more for me.

I am afraid it is people like you that want to express that we are not entitled to keep what we earn ... Or use what we earn to better the world around us without your wanton corruption, abuse and waste.

The only person identifying scapegoats around here is you ... Every time you mention Fox News ... Along with what you think they tell me and what you think it means to me.
That is just a reflection of how easily you are influenced by the media ... And identifies where you find whatever is necessary to support your ideas.

The only people screaming "More for me" are the people that don't have it to start with and want to take it from someone else ... And whether or not you want to call it theft is up to you.

.

Yes the word TAKE is the word to focus on as you say, because one could gain much more in help I feel, if Humbleness & being GOOD as a people on whole were to replace the word take in exchange for the word help again in our society. The hate & revenge groups love the word TAKE, because they see it as getting back or taking back what they feel they are deserving of, even if they are in no way connected to the past nor are the ones they want to take from connected to the past as well. It's time for this nation to eradicate the excuses used of the past, along with the poverty that is blamed on the past in which has no connection to it today. It's time, but watch how they keep it all alive, and how it is all for a reason in which keeps punishing the generation's even though they had nothing to do with it all in which they are being accused of by this government constantly.

 

[BlackSand]

Yes the word TAKE is the word to focus on as you say, because one could gain much more in help I feel, if Humbleness & being GOOD as a people on whole were to replace the word take in exchange for the word help again in our society. The hate & revenge groups love the word TAKE, because they see it as getting back or taking back what they feel they are deserving of, even if they are in no way connected to the past nor are the ones they want to take from connected to the past as well. It's time for this nation to eradicate the excuses used of the past, along with the poverty that is blamed on the past in which has no connection to it today. It's time, but watch how they keep it all alive, and how it is all for a reason in which keeps punishing the generation's even though they had nothing to do with it all in which they are being accused of by this government constantly.

When something is taken it is always different than when it is given ... No matter what the context is intended to be.
I long ago gave up on the idea that the government could take (by law) ... What I could give (by desire to help) ... And use it more efficiently.
The people who propagate the idea that it is necessary for us to surrender our individual duty, responsibility and ability to help others ... So that the government can take what we have earned and waste it accomplishing nothing ... Are wrong in every sense.

.

 

[PMZ]

I came up with more solutions to the "truck problem" than you did. You limited yourself to conservative over simplified black and white thinking. Exactly the reason why conservatism is destructive in business, government, and religion.

Your posts reek of Fox Opinions arrogance.

You didn't have single solution ...

You said I needed to ask if my neighbor needed help ... When he is sitting there with his truck stuck in a ditch.
You said I needed to investigate whether or not he had already called someone ... When I am sitting there with the ability to get his truck out of the ditch.
You suggested I offer my neighbor a ride ... When I can get his truck out the ditch and he can drive himself.
You suggested I let my neighbor use my phone ... When I said I would be glad to let him use my phone to tell someone he was on his way.
None of what you suggested would have done anything to get his truck out of the ditch and solve the problem.

The simple fact that you believe you offered any solution that wasn't already trumped by the fact the problem was solved ... Is a testament to Progressive Liberal idiocy.

.

Simple conservative arrogance. Any solution that doesn't come from a conservative is not a solution. That's the entire ACA story. Also AGW. Also our $17T debt that conservatives caused. While they caused it all, they still publish the myth that only they can solve it. By weakening our government and our country.

The weaker the government, the easier it will be to create richer rich and poorer poor. Their real goal. Solve that vexing problem of the rich only having 85% of the wealth.

Of course when the aristocracy reaches their goal there will be the problem of nobody doing the work of creating wealth.

But that's still a couple of years away so let's ignore it. Along with AGW. And health care.

 

[PMZ]

Yes the word TAKE is the word to focus on as you say, because one could gain much more in help I feel, if Humbleness & being GOOD as a people on whole were to replace the word take in exchange for the word help again in our society. The hate & revenge groups love the word TAKE, because they see it as getting back or taking back what they feel they are deserving of, even if they are in no way connected to the past nor are the ones they want to take from connected to the past as well. It's time for this nation to eradicate the excuses used of the past, along with the poverty that is blamed on the past in which has no connection to it today. It's time, but watch how they keep it all alive, and how it is all for a reason in which keeps punishing the generation's even though they had nothing to do with it all in which they are being accused of by this government constantly.

When something is taken it is always different than when it is given ... No matter what the context is intended to be.
I long ago gave up on the idea that the government could take (by law) ... What I could give (by desire to help) ... And use it more efficiently.
The people who propagate the idea that it is necessary for us to surrender our individual duty, responsibility and ability to help others ... So that the government can take what we have earned and waste it accomplishing nothing ... Are wrong in every sense.

.

There's a reason why Fox Opinions worked so hard to sell to their minions that America is not a democracy. A fundamental reason. If you fall for that, government becomes 'them'. A disconnected band of thieves that can then become a whole army of scapegoats. And, the minions can be programmed to support weaker government, the only thing standing in the way of the wealthy sweeping up that last 15%.

If you accept the truth that America is the world's preeminent democracy, then it is government of, by and for the people. Our government. We, the people.

There is a long list of lies that Fox Opinions are based on. And they have been methodically installed in the Fox base.

But I think that the notion that America is not a democracy is most destructive to America, and most diabolically supportive of Republican aristocracy.

 

[RKMBrown]

What I believe our life stories are profoundly affected by the country or countries that we live in. And the family that we are born to. And the friends that we make. And the schools that we attend. And the companies that we work for. All of those are part of us.

We are either happy and proud of what we made from all of those ingredients or disappointed.

I'm happy and proud. I want others to share in my good fortune. Along the way I made some money. More than I need to be happy.

I just can't relate to king of the mountain. The one who dies with the most toys wins.

The success of my country ranks right up there with the success of my family in terms of what I would like to leave behind. My role in both of those goals is to do what I can to fix things that are obstacles to that.

Simple. Pragmatic. Objective.

Your histrionics of entitlement do not move me an inch. The risks to the success of my family and country move me greatly.

It is that simple.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yeah, I'd like to say that was moving, but I really don't care what your motives are. The ends do not justify the means that your profess. No matter how eloquently you explain it, the means is the same, you are stealing money from one person to hand over money to another person. Worse you defend the theft being done it in a completely arbitrary way, progressively by level of income.

Then to pour salt on the wound, your "team" distributes the income as hand-outs instead of hand-ups. This presumably to ensure the receiver never progresses. The evidence showing that the people receiving hand-outs are kept down to be a permanent voting class for even more hand-outs.

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

 

[beagle9]

I came up with more solutions to the "truck problem" than you did. You limited yourself to conservative over simplified black and white thinking. Exactly the reason why conservatism is destructive in business, government, and religion.

Your posts reek of Fox Opinions arrogance.

You didn't have single solution ...

You said I needed to ask if my neighbor needed help ... When he is sitting there with his truck stuck in a ditch.
You said I needed to investigate whether or not he had already called someone ... When I am sitting there with the ability to get his truck out of the ditch.
You suggested I offer my neighbor a ride ... When I can get his truck out the ditch and he can drive himself.
You suggested I let my neighbor use my phone ... When I said I would be glad to let him use my phone to tell someone he was on his way.
None of what you suggested would have done anything to get his truck out of the ditch and solve the problem.

The simple fact that you believe you offered any solution that wasn't already trumped by the fact the problem was solved ... Is a testament to Progressive Liberal idiocy.

.

Simple conservative arrogance. Any solution that doesn't come from a conservative is not a solution. That's the entire ACA story. Also AGW. Also our $17T debt that conservatives caused. While they caused it all, they still publish the myth that only they can solve it. By weakening our government and our country.

The weaker the government, they easier it will be to create richer rich and poorer poor. Their real goal. Solve that vexing problem of the rich only having 85% of the wealth.

Of course when the aristocracy reaches their goal there will be the problem of nobody doing the work of creating wealth.

But that's still a couple of years away so let's ignore it. Along with AGW. And health care.

No, you have some valid points also, but you just have to stay out of the camp that thinks taking or forcing at the end of a federal gun is the best policy to solve matters. Now instead of bi-partisanship on the issues winning the day in order to work together to solve the problems of today, you want anarchy instead ? Taking or forcing will soon lead to major problems, and that is what we are seeing in all of this today.

Because of this constant suspicion by a wanta be victim group forever, and yet for political reasons now do they do this more than ever now is highly revealing, also in what we are finding in these other certain groups who want to get on the band wagon as well, makes this the very reason why we are getting what we are getting without relief upon such issues (or) in the solving of these issues to this very day in America.

These groups see the other groups as their arch-enemies till the very end in this nation, and so I think it will only get worse and worse I'm afraid before it gets better if it all keeps on going like this. The stage gets set and the show goes on every single day and in every single way.

 

[PMZ]

I notice lots of use of the code word hand up.

I don't have the secret Fox decoder ring but my interpretation of it is that it stands for help that erases poverty.

How great is that!

Let's do it. Here's the only way that I know how.

Jobs. Well paying jobs. Jobs that can be done by the people that we have, not the people that we wish we had.

On your mark, get set, Go!

Has poverty gone away yet?

 

[RKMBrown]

I notice lots of use of the code word hand up.

I don't have the secret Fox decoder ring but my interpretation of it is that it stands for help that erases poverty.

How great is that!

Let's do it. Here's the only way that I know how.

Jobs. Well paying jobs. Jobs that can be done by the people that we have, not the people that we wish we had.

On your mark, get set, Go!

Has poverty gone away yet?

I would never give a retard like you a paycheck.

 

[PMZ]

Yeah, I'd like to say that was moving, but I really don't care what your motives are. The ends do not justify the means that your profess. No matter how eloquently you explain it, the means is the same, you are stealing money from one person to hand over money to another person. Worse you defend the theft being done it in a completely arbitrary way, progressively by level of income.

Then to pour salt on the wound, your "team" distributes the income as hand-outs instead of hand-ups. This presumably to ensure the receiver never progresses. The evidence showing that the people receiving hand-outs are kept down to be a permanent voting class for even more hand-outs.

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Congratulations. You are to be commended. Three happy productive kids. Just like mine.

Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Of course it probably costs a million bucks or so to do that but it's the best investment in the world. I certainly thought so.

Now, let's get back to the poor people.

 

[RKMBrown]

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Congratulations. You are to be commended. Three happy productive kids. Just like mine.

Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Of course it probably costs a million bucks or so to do that but it's the best investment in the world. I certainly thought so.

Now, let's get back to the poor people.

>> Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Yes, absolutely. That's why I'm against hand-out programs that are designed to make sure families don't do as well. Paying people to not work, paying people to sit on the couch, sell and do drugs, steal, ... Look at our "free" hospital system. My daughter (RN) tells me that well over 50% of the visitors to the emergency room are drug addicts seeking a free fix. A free fix that our government mandates they hand out, the bill for which is passed on to consumers through higher emergency room costs. She tells me that only 1 in a hundred of the people coming to the ER that don't have insurance and/or are not paying, are people that have an honest need for help. Most folks that need help have Medicare, Medicaid, Insurance, or cash.

 

[beagle9]

Yeah, I'd like to say that was moving, but I really don't care what your motives are. The ends do not justify the means that your profess. No matter how eloquently you explain it, the means is the same, you are stealing money from one person to hand over money to another person. Worse you defend the theft being done it in a completely arbitrary way, progressively by level of income.

Then to pour salt on the wound, your "team" distributes the income as hand-outs instead of hand-ups. This presumably to ensure the receiver never progresses. The evidence showing that the people receiving hand-outs are kept down to be a permanent voting class for even more hand-outs.

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Exactly, and now apply your concepts to the government in the same ways of thinking that you have, and we should be getting the same results that you are, but the government couldn't manage thinking like that if it tried to anymore, because it is in a constant struggle always against being led around by the nose by the wrong people. It appears that the wrong people are winning the prize these days (control of our government and the nation also through this control). The problem today is that the wrong people are leading it around by it's nose, and telling it what to do and who to do it to. We are all being abused by this now, so how do the right people take back the government is what this nation needs to wonder about and soon plan to do. People know what is right, but I think monopolizing corporations big part in all of this has made our government vulnerable also, because it has affectively separated it from we the people in that way, and so when you see the government being over generous in certain ways over a feel good issue (or) on programs that it picks to be sensitive upon, it usually does this to show the nation that look we are still the government in which you expect us to be, even though it is not that government we think that it is any longer.

 

[beagle9]

I notice lots of use of the code word hand up.

I don't have the secret Fox decoder ring but my interpretation of it is that it stands for help that erases poverty.

How great is that!

Let's do it. Here's the only way that I know how.

Jobs. Well paying jobs. Jobs that can be done by the people that we have, not the people that we wish we had.

On your mark, get set, Go!

Has poverty gone away yet?

It would if you wasn't late on the starting line because of your confusion in life, so why are you dragging your heels on doing what is right again ? Oh that's right, just to many distractions right ?

Your kind of like that rabbit in the race with the turtle aren't you ? Think about it.

 

[RKMBrown]

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Exactly, and now apply your concepts to the government in the same ways of thinking that you have, and we should be getting the same results that you are, but the government couldn't manage thinking like that if it tried to anymore, because it is in a constant struggle always against being led around by the nose by the wrong people. It appears that the wrong people are winning the prize these days (control of our government and the nation also through this control). The problem today is that the wrong people are leading it around by it's nose, and telling it what to do and who to do it to. We are all being abused by this now, so how do the right people take back the government is what this nation needs to wonder about and soon plan to do. People know what is right, but I think monopolizing corporations big part in all of this has made our government vulnerable also, because it has affectively separated it from we the people in that way, and so when you see the government being over generous in certain ways over a feel good issue (or) on programs that it picks to be sensitive upon, it usually does this to show the nation that look we are still the government in which you expect us to be, even though it is not that government we think that it is any longer.

When conservatives, like me, look at these programs our response is, well duh you can't solve poverty by having a guy in DC send out checks. Hand-ups are best done by people who care about and/or at least have an incentive to monitor and mange the person's progress. Hand-ups require "local" management, not remote management.

Take FHA loans, the DC approach to housing is to hand-out loans to everyone. The Habitat approach is to carefully select and manage help to turn deserving families around.

The liberal approach is to just "solve" problems by throwing other people's money at it. Every weather event.. throw a large sum at it to "solve" the problem. Never do we think, maybe they should have to pay for their poor choice to live in a flood plain. Instead, we bail them out rebuild and they get flooded out again, and again, and again, and ... Refuse to fork over what seems to be an undue amount of money, and you get accused of tossing grandma off the cliff.

 

[PMZ]

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Congratulations. You are to be commended. Three happy productive kids. Just like mine.

Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Of course it probably costs a million bucks or so to do that but it's the best investment in the world. I certainly thought so.

Now, let's get back to the poor people.

>> Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Yes, absolutely. That's why I'm against hand-out programs that are designed to make sure families don't do as well. Paying people to not work, paying people to sit on the couch, sell and do drugs, steal, ... Look at our "free" hospital system. My daughter (RN) tells me that well over 50% of the visitors to the emergency room are drug addicts seeking a free fix. A free fix that our government mandates they hand out, the bill for which is passed on to consumers through higher emergency room costs. She tells me that only 1 in a hundred of the people coming to the ER that don't have insurance and/or are not paying, are people that have an honest need for help. Most folks that need help have Medicare, Medicaid, Insurance, or cash.

About 7% of hospital costs don't get collected. They end up getting collected in our hospital costs and payed by our insurance.

 

[PMZ]

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

Exactly, and now apply your concepts to the government in the same ways of thinking that you have, and we should be getting the same results that you are, but the government couldn't manage thinking like that if it tried to anymore, because it is in a constant struggle always against being led around by the nose by the wrong people. It appears that the wrong people are winning the prize these days (control of our government and the nation also through this control). The problem today is that the wrong people are leading it around by it's nose, and telling it what to do and who to do it to. We are all being abused by this now, so how do the right people take back the government is what this nation needs to wonder about and soon plan to do. People know what is right, but I think monopolizing corporations big part in all of this has made our government vulnerable also, because it has affectively separated it from we the people in that way, and so when you see the government being over generous in certain ways over a feel good issue (or) on programs that it picks to be sensitive upon, it usually does this to show the nation that look we are still the government in which you expect us to be, even though it is not that government we think that it is any longer.

When conservatives, like me, look at these programs our response is, well duh you can't solve poverty by having a guy in DC send out checks. Hand-ups are best done by people who care about and/or at least have an incentive to monitor and mange the person's progress. Hand-ups require "local" management, not remote management.

Take FHA loans, the DC approach to housing is to hand-out loans to everyone. The Habitat approach is to carefully select and manage help to turn deserving families around.

The liberal approach is to just "solve" problems by throwing other people's money at it. Every weather event.. throw a large sum at it to "solve" the problem. Never do we think, maybe they should have to pay for their poor choice to live in a flood plain. Instead, we bail them out rebuild and they get flooded out again, and again, and again, and ... Refuse to fork over what seems to be an undue amount of money, and you get accused of tossing grandma off the cliff.

Do you agree that the only way to get from here to what you want is a living wage paying job for everyone who wants one?

 

[Antares]

Exactly, and now apply your concepts to the government in the same ways of thinking that you have, and we should be getting the same results that you are, but the government couldn't manage thinking like that if it tried to anymore, because it is in a constant struggle always against being led around by the nose by the wrong people. It appears that the wrong people are winning the prize these days (control of our government and the nation also through this control). The problem today is that the wrong people are leading it around by it's nose, and telling it what to do and who to do it to. We are all being abused by this now, so how do the right people take back the government is what this nation needs to wonder about and soon plan to do. People know what is right, but I think monopolizing corporations big part in all of this has made our government vulnerable also, because it has affectively separated it from we the people in that way, and so when you see the government being over generous in certain ways over a feel good issue (or) on programs that it picks to be sensitive upon, it usually does this to show the nation that look we are still the government in which you expect us to be, even though it is not that government we think that it is any longer.

When conservatives, like me, look at these programs our response is, well duh you can't solve poverty by having a guy in DC send out checks. Hand-ups are best done by people who care about and/or at least have an incentive to monitor and mange the person's progress. Hand-ups require "local" management, not remote management.

Take FHA loans, the DC approach to housing is to hand-out loans to everyone. The Habitat approach is to carefully select and manage help to turn deserving families around.

The liberal approach is to just "solve" problems by throwing other people's money at it. Every weather event.. throw a large sum at it to "solve" the problem. Never do we think, maybe they should have to pay for their poor choice to live in a flood plain. Instead, we bail them out rebuild and they get flooded out again, and again, and again, and ... Refuse to fork over what seems to be an undue amount of money, and you get accused of tossing grandma off the cliff.

Do you agree that the only way to get from here to what you want is a living wage paying job for everyone who wants one?

What IS a living wage PMS?

 

[PMZ]

Yeah, I'd like to say that was moving, but I really don't care what your motives are. The ends do not justify the means that your profess. No matter how eloquently you explain it, the means is the same, you are stealing money from one person to hand over money to another person. Worse you defend the theft being done it in a completely arbitrary way, progressively by level of income.

Then to pour salt on the wound, your "team" distributes the income as hand-outs instead of hand-ups. This presumably to ensure the receiver never progresses. The evidence showing that the people receiving hand-outs are kept down to be a permanent voting class for even more hand-outs.

I agree that there is a mindset that is dangerous today, and it has been for quite sometime now, because like you say if it was a hand up instead of a handout then no one would have a problem with helping out in the biggest ways (yet wanting solid results in return), but the evidence is hard to refute as to what has been going on over the years. Then people wonder why there is so much defensiveness and divisiveness about these kinds of issues that go on and on and on.

What I have seen is a government that has tried to take these programs from way back, and to try and transform America into the way that it is now (unbalanced) or (off balance).

So far they have been successful with it all, but the people are just now and are finally waking up to what has gone on in it all, and so I ask why is that you reckon ? I think it's because it is attacking their wallet in ways that it never has before, and so now they are awaken to it all finally. If this nation was truly working to eradicate poverty as much as possible, and to bring it to a nation that is more united, then it wouldn't have gone the route that it has taken in all of this over the years. The problem is that we have all these victim groups that are determined to remain the victims until the cows come home now, and they do this for a reason. They are going to exploit the issues until they get where they want to be or get what they want finally out of it all, and they are going to make everyone pay for this by the hammer of the federal government upon us all until the end results are acquired finally by them. It is a problem! The government is to blame for it all, because it has mismanaged the whole thing for the past 50 years now, and it is still mismanaging it to this day.

When ever they took tax payers money, and used it as a handout instead of a hand up, then they had done wrong, and when they incentivized growth in poverty by way of those very same taxes, then they done wrong again, and when they placed roofs over the heads of those who would use those shelters for baby making factories, then they had done wrong again. This is what has happened in America, and it is still happening to this very day. The feds trying to shift the balance of power in this nation over time, seems to have been a long term agenda of theirs. It should have been that they would not have lied about all of this over the years, and they would have been working to achieve true equality and opportunity for all Americans under the laws that were created, but what we are seeing is a reversal of fortunes by way of the feds hammers upon this nation, instead of a free society that is a merit based society in which it should be as based upon certain agreements by all who are on board with such agreements.

The biggest tragedy is the incentivizing of poverty by way of our tax dollars taken by the feds, in which then caused the swelling up of a population by the millions, and all because of this ideology or failed plan that was used on this nation for to long now. It was a plan in which has placed us all in the predicament that we are in and/or we are all constantly having to grapple with in this nation, especially when it comes to poverty and what to do with it in the right ways instead of the wrong ways finally.

Very well said.

In a free capitalist market regulated to eliminate monopolies, consumers shop to buy the best product they can afford. In a mandated monopoly run market, such as government managed poverty programs, the monopoly controls the price and product.

This is not rocket science. Nor is it cheap. In the short run hand-up programs are more expensive and time consuming. In the long run, however productive people end up carrying their own weight and then some. Thus, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.

Public education is improving with the movement to High Schools hosting college and trade school courses. This needs to be emphasized. Graduating from HS with a 2year degree is a huge hand-up.

Habitat for Humanity is a fantastic program. You want a house? Show us stable income and we help you get in one that the program builds for you, but it does not end there as we'll keep track make sure you pay the bills stay working and don't trash the house etc. Fail and we find someone more worthy.

EBT may be a great deal for the people receiving it but does it include a means to get folks off? Or is it a transition program till they get SS? Would folks change their life plans to figure out a way to earn more income if they knew they would loose EBT? What incentive is there to get off? Why not exchange EBT credit for work community work? What's the incentive for me to want to help people stay on EBT? No offense intended to the folks on it. I just would like to understand what's the long run plan.

For example, while my kids are in college I make sure they have money for food, I make sure they have a working car, health care, etc.. They also work for running money, cause I won't give them cash for partying and buying "stuff." The goal for this hand-up is to help them have more time for studying while in college. I also co-sign on loans to keep the loan rate down. They are very appreciative of the coolers full of food they get when they visit home. In return I get to check on progress. Additionally they all know I'd love to have them live at home after college while they are paying off the loans and creating a savings account for retirement and another for getting their own home or apartment, well at least till they get married. When they are in my home food and rent are free but they help out around the house. IOW I'm here to give them a hand-up. And in return they let me know about the progress they are making toward major life goals that will make them independent productive people. They also all know that if they are ever in trouble their family will always be welcome in my home. We'll work it out together. The "safety" net of family allows them to take calculated risks (investments of time and money) they could not take if they did not have a safety net at home.

My personal family goal is to have raised three "extremely" productive and happy children. So far so good.

BTW, I agree with you about HFH.
A wonderful idea that I have done volunteer work for.

It's win, win, win.

 

[RKMBrown]

Congratulations. You are to be commended. Three happy productive kids. Just like mine.

Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Of course it probably costs a million bucks or so to do that but it's the best investment in the world. I certainly thought so.

Now, let's get back to the poor people.

>> Don't you wish every family could do as well?

Yes, absolutely. That's why I'm against hand-out programs that are designed to make sure families don't do as well. Paying people to not work, paying people to sit on the couch, sell and do drugs, steal, ... Look at our "free" hospital system. My daughter (RN) tells me that well over 50% of the visitors to the emergency room are drug addicts seeking a free fix. A free fix that our government mandates they hand out, the bill for which is passed on to consumers through higher emergency room costs. She tells me that only 1 in a hundred of the people coming to the ER that don't have insurance and/or are not paying, are people that have an honest need for help. Most folks that need help have Medicare, Medicaid, Insurance, or cash.

About 7% of hospital costs don't get collected. They end up getting collected in our hospital costs and payed by our insurance.

I'm just talking about the emergency room. The government does not mandate that any of the other operations in the hospital be provided "free" of charge. With regard to the other operations of the hospital, the big issues are medicare/medicare mandated processes, procedures, and prices that pass on a large % of the costs for those patients to private insurance; and the government mandated and/or managed monopolies on drugs and equipment.

 

[PMZ]

I notice lots of use of the code word hand up.

I don't have the secret Fox decoder ring but my interpretation of it is that it stands for help that erases poverty.

How great is that!

Let's do it. Here's the only way that I know how.

Jobs. Well paying jobs. Jobs that can be done by the people that we have, not the people that we wish we had.

On your mark, get set, Go!

Has poverty gone away yet?

I would never give a retard like you a paycheck.

That's how I know that you're not much of a business man.