The Fake racial history of Jews

[Shogun]

Come on Jillian, you know you don't have to wonder the motivation.

ohhh here it comes! HERE IT COMES!!!

Good evening, Shogie.

I hope you've got a towel or a napkin to wipe off all the antisemite and lube from this thread.

 

[lizzie]

yea... all those maps from the 1900's that say Palestine.. They're lying to us!!?!?!

Think of it as referring to Houstonians as if Houston was a sovereign state. Palestine was a region, not an independent self-ruling country.

The Levant formed part of the Ottoman Empire from 1518. In 1917, it was occupied by Britain during the First World War. However, there was no administrative unit under the Ottoman Empire corresponding to what came to be known as Palestine and the boundaries were determined as part of the process of formation of the British Mandate of Palestine after the War.[13] Since the British Mandate, the term Palestine has been associated with the geographical area that currently covers the State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip,[13] though the British Mandate also covered present day Jordan.

(from wiki)

 

[CurveLight]

from the linked info:

In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today's Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel, and that the only political solution to the country's conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state.

I'm not sure how he could have arrived at this conclusion, being that genetic/DNA studies done a few years ago basically showed extraordinarily similar genetic ties between the Palestinians and the Jews. The primary (and more significant) differences are religious and cultural.

The dna studies support his argument.

 

[CurveLight]

Silly argument this professor is making. The illegitimacy of Israel has nothing to do with the "racial history" of Jews.

Sure it does. The entire basis for the creation of Israel was based on a claim of ancestoral homeland.

But there never was a Jewish state called Judea. The Jews were never exiled, and the Palestinians and Syrians have a stronger claim to the same land.

There was a Kingdom of Israel during the same time there was a Kingdom of Judah for about 400 years. Judea eventually became a Roman territory around 6 BCE but to say there was never an Israel or Judah is a bit at odds with the evidence.

The author is not making a new argument in any way. He has simply found a palate for saying what many historians and biblical scholars have been saying for many years. Interestingly, Judaism and Islam came into existence by many similar paths and circumstances.

 

[martybegan]

It is possible that both are true.

The Ashkenazi Jews spent about 1000 years in Europe but some of their genetic material can be traced back to the current location of Israel.

But that said the Ashkenazis are not ethnically pure semites. Their faith, not their genetic purity, is what defined them as a group until 100 years ago. Which is the author's actual assertion.

Which deeply waters down any claim to the land of Israel via ancestoral legacy. Meanwhile it strengthens Palestinian's claims to the exact same land.

Based on genetics, yes, but there never was a "Palestine", and the people living in that region at the time that Israel as a state was formed, were pretty much tribal groups loosely ruled by Syria.

True, and there was apparently never a "Judea"either, no Camelot dwelling Kind David or Solomon.

The jewish religion is real and is practiced by people of all ethnicities. But there simply is no such thing as a Jewish race or ethnicity.

Semites are Arabs.

And the holocaust didn't target the Jews either.

Estimates vary but almost all speculate that between 1/3 and 1/2 of all holocaust victims were Jewish.
All things considered the justification for a Jewish state in Israel is shaky at best. Esp since Palestinians are apparently the exact same people, practicing a different religion and without the euro baggage.

But we have known that all along, 12 tribes, one of which ostensibly became the tribe of Israel. but they are all the same people.

WHAT?????

So all the stuff in Mein Kampf, all the Nuremberg laws, and all the minutes from the Wanasee conference (validated by Eichmann) weren't target a jews?

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[Sheldon]

from the linked info:

In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today's Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel, and that the only political solution to the country's conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state.

I'm not sure how he could have arrived at this conclusion, being that genetic/DNA studies done a few years ago basically showed extraordinarily similar genetic ties between the Palestinians and the Jews. The primary (and more significant) differences are religious and cultural.

The dna studies support his argument.

The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sand argues that most contemporary Jews do not originate from the ancient Land of Israel and that they never existed as a "nation-race" with a common origin. Just as most contemporary Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a converting religion. Many of the present day world Jewish population are descendants of European, Russian and African groups.

​

ScienceDirect - The American Journal of Human Genetics : Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry
This links to a peer-reviewed paper published by The American Journal in Human Genetics in February of this year (the Sand book was originally published in 2008). You have to have an account to see the whole article, but here's the abstract.

For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity.

Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture.

Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry.

Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.

​

Access : The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people : Nature
This is the link to a peer-reviewed paper published by Nature on July 8, 2010. You need to be a paid subscriber to read the entire thing. Here's the abstract; it's long, so I'm only posting the most relevant parts.

Contemporary Jews comprise an aggregate of ethno-religious communities whose worldwide members identify with each other through various shared religious, historical and cultural traditions. Historical evidence suggests common origins in the Middle East, followed by migrations leading to the establishment of communities of Jews in Europe, Africa and Asia, in what is termed the Jewish Diaspora. This complex demographic history imposes special challenges in attempting to address the genetic structure of the Jewish people.
​

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Here we use high-density bead arrays to genotype individuals from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities and compare these patterns of genome-wide diversity with those from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations, of which 25 have not previously been reported. These samples were carefully chosen to provide comprehensive comparisons between Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora, as well as with non-Jewish populations from the Middle East and north Africa.
​

removed

Most Jewish samples form a remarkably tight subcluster that overlies Druze and Cypriot samples but not samples from other Levantine populations or paired Diaspora host populations. In contrast, Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and Indian Jews (Bene Israel and Cochini) cluster with neighbouring autochthonous populations in Ethiopia and western India, respectively, despite a clear paternal link between the Bene Israel and the Levant. These results cast light on the variegated genetic architecture of the Middle East, and trace the origins of most Jewish Diaspora communities to the Levant.

​

Recent genetic research contradicts Sand's claim that Jews don't share a common ancestry from the eastern Mediterranean. jillian is right; this is an anti-semitic screed. The Infidel is right about the book's popularity; "know your enemy".

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smim2MNvF8"]YouTube - Rage Against The Machine: Know Your Enemy[/ame]

 

[eagleseven]

I'm pretty sure the Jewish genetic line has been traced all the way back.

 

[lizzie]

Recent genetic research contradicts Sand's claim that Jews don't share a common ancestry from the eastern Mediterranean. jillian is right; this is an anti-semitic screed. The Infidel is right about the book's popularity; "know your enemy".

YouTube - Rage Against The Machine: Know Your Enemy

I never had any doubt about that (the antisemite nature of the thread/content).
The OP kind of gave away his bias with the title and first commentary:

You gotta read it to believe it

I was just questioning how Sand came up with his conclusions regarding the genetic ties/ historical rights.

 

[loosecannon]

[/INDENT]Recent genetic research contradicts Sand's claim that Jews don't share a common ancestry from the eastern Mediterranean. jillian is right; this is an anti-semitic screed. The Infidel is right about the book's popularity; "know your enemy".

That is all cute and all, but Sand never made the sole assertion that you credit him with.

IOW you are 100% full of shit.

 

[loosecannon]

I never had any doubt about that (the antisemite nature of the thread/content).
The OP kind of gave away his bias with the title and first commentary:

You gotta read it to believe it

are you for real? Or just a bald faced lying sack of shit?

Israeli Jews are the most antisemitic group to ever exist.

And the most racist self identified ethnicity in the history of civilization.

Even now, in the allegedly most enlightened of ages, they commit continual smoldering genocide and ethnic cleansing against a faction of their own race.

It is as if they are stuck inside the holocaust which they hijacked and can do nothing other than find somebody less powerful than themselves to afflict with the same atrocities.

 

[William Joyce]

mostly one has to wonder about the motivation of people trying to de-jew the jews.

It'll never work. Jew goes all the way to the bone.

 

[loosecannon]

I'm pretty sure the Jewish genetic line has been traced all the way back.

What about the converts?

What % of "jewish" DNA today is not of ME decent?

Israeli knesset - Google Search

and

Israeli crowd - Google Search

Indistinguishable from a European crowd.

 

[loosecannon]

mostly one has to wonder about the motivation of people trying to de-jew the jews.

It'll never work. Jew goes all the way to the bone.

Jews are just Arabs who married into European lineage.

 

[loosecannon]

I was just questioning how Sand came up with his conclusions regarding the genetic ties/ historical rights.

"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel's first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."

Iow the indigenous Palestinians of the British protectorate had every claim that Jews did to the land, plus 1000 more years of recent residency and legal land titles.

he is calling for a one state solution and an end to the notion of a Jewish state.

 

[daveman]

It'll never work. Jew goes all the way to the bone.

Jews are just Arabs who married into European lineage.

 

[Bigmo]

Based on genetics, yes, but there never was a "Palestine", and the people living in that region at the time that Israel as a state was formed, were pretty much tribal groups loosely ruled by Syria.

True, and there was apparently never a "Judea"either, no Camelot dwelling Kind David or Solomon.

The jewish religion is real and is practiced by people of all ethnicities. But there simply is no such thing as a Jewish race or ethnicity.

Semites are Arabs.

And the holocaust didn't target the Jews either.

Estimates vary but almost all speculate that between 1/3 and 1/2 of all holocaust victims were Jewish.
All things considered the justification for a Jewish state in Israel is shaky at best. Esp since Palestinians are apparently the exact same people, practicing a different religion and without the euro baggage.

But we have known that all along, 12 tribes, one of which ostensibly became the tribe of Israel. but they are all the same people.

WHAT?????

So all the stuff in Mein Kampf, all the Nuremberg laws, and all the minutes from the Wanasee conference (validated by Eichmann) weren't target a jews?

Are you freaking kidding me?

Judaism actually is very similar to Sunni Islam but its sthnically bound and not sectarian. Judaism emphasizes geneology and not doctrine.As a Koranist I can see the similarity with Sunni Islam and Judaism. Ofetn societies dealt with Jewish influence by creating a counter Judaic ideology(as Aryan Nationalism in Germany) which basically took the ethno-centric and legalistic and ritualistic aspect of Judaism and used that to counter Judaic influence.

Very good stuff about Judaism and Jewish history by Dr Kevin Macdonald. He also talks about Jewish organization and their obsession with creating a multi-ethnic America(but not in Israel) by displacing Whites as the majority and thus creating a non identity America(where they feel safer) where no single ethnicity and culture can dominate.

he traces that to Jewish historic experience but also denial(that Judaism was often a cause for anti-seimitism due to its inability to assimilate). I never knew that the pressure of assimilation actually helped create zionism as zome Jews felt that in a country of their own Jews do not have to assimilate by inter marrying. Macdonald says Jews created a history of Jewish victimhood that concealed their status in Europena history as an elite but a hostile elite(meaning they felt no attachment to their host nation and its people and culture). He says Jewish elites are doing the same in America by promoting leftist ideologies that is hostile to Christianity and White ethnicity and promoting mass immigration of non Whites to America. Macdonald says Jews were the only ethnic lobbying group that worked hard to stop White prefernce immigration to America and they say that as hindering to Jewish self advancement and safety. They don't mind Nationalism in Israel though. You know, like Muslims liking secularism when they are a minority but not when they are a mojority. Jewish organizations are now hitting Macdonald hard calling him a White Nationaliost and anti-semites. But his influence is growing. But I like his Judaic history writing. Very academical.

Interesting stuff.

 

[jillian]

Well, over the course of say, 110 generations there is bound to be some genetic drift. But what makes "Jewish" is so subjective that Israel doesn't get too bent out of shape about it. You have Chinese jews who don't look jewish at all. But they still follow the laws, which must be really hard in a society as pork obsessed as China. And there were the Falasha from Ethiopia who look as Jewish as Sammy Davis Jr. But they stayed with the laws as well.

Lots of intermarriage and involuntary inter relation. A lot can happen over 1,878 years.

yes... but the jewish calendar will be 5771 years old this week.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

I did the math, 1948-70.



Either way, it is a goofy assertion.

this kind of reminds me of a scene from Exodus where a british officer is telling Paul Newman that he knows when he sees a jew trying to pass for european, and rattles off a set of facial characteristics, all of which are more pronounced on him, than on Newman, the Hagganah spy.

 

[Sheldon]

[/INDENT]Recent genetic research contradicts Sand's claim that Jews don't share a common ancestry from the eastern Mediterranean. jillian is right; this is an anti-semitic screed. The Infidel is right about the book's popularity; "know your enemy".

That is all cute and all, but Sand never made the sole assertion that you credit him with.

IOW you are 100% full of shit.

Here's more sources that all say the same thing regarding his claim.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html

Since Professor Sand’s mission is to discredit Jews’ historical claims to the territory, he is keen to show that their ancestry lines do not lead back to ancient Palestine. He resurrects a theory first raised by 19th-century historians, that the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, to whom 90 percent of American Jews trace their roots, are descended from the Khazars, a Turkic people who apparently converted to Judaism and created an empire in the Caucasus in the eighth century​

Book Review: The Invention of the Jewish People | Leon T. Hadar | Cato Institute: Commentary

Countering official Zionist historiography, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a "people" in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage.​

The Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand | Book review | Books | The Guardian

What is indisputable is that early Jewish communities grew through conversion. But Sand's key thesis, that the bulk of modern eastern European Jewry owes its origins to the converted kingdom of the Khazars, has been widely debated, and rejected, especially in the wake of Arthur Koestler's famous book on the subject. Sand's allegation that this whole episode was hushed up because it vitiated the Zionist notion of Jewish ethnobiological continuity, cannot be maintained.​

UCLA Center for Near Eastern Studies :: The Invention of the Jewish People

Throwing into question the various ‘ethno-biological’ claims made on the Jewish homeland, Shlomo Sand argues that most Jews actually descend from converts whose native lands were scattered far across Eastern Europe and the Middle East. The formation of a Jewish people and, subsequently, a Jewish nation out of these disparate individuals could only take place under the sway of a new historiography that developed in response to the rise of nationalism throughout Europe.​

So maybe you or curvelight could explain these how these four book reviews--two of which are from mainstream publications--aren't saying the same thing about Sand's claim that I quoted from the Wikipedia article.

And then explain how the pair of peer-reviewed genetic research papers I linked to in that same post don't flatly disprove Sand's claim about Jewish ancestry.

I'm not challenging his other arguments.

Nobody is stopping you from showing me just why I'm 100% full of shit. Have at it.

 

[count markovale]

hardly. You still have no idea what the word "partisan" means.

But trying reading the links. You might learn something.

very good reporting and there's a lot of truth there.keep up the good work.