Zone1 The Jews are not The Jews

[frigidweirdo]

By that logic someone of Roman heritage has "Rightful claims" to England.

Wow, the massive jump there.

We're not talking about "rightful claims", we're talking about whether these people are ancestors of Jews who were from this area.

Where did the eastern European Jews come from?

 

[ding]

Where did the eastern Europe Jews appear from?

Judaism spread to Europe primarily through the Roman Empire's expansion and subsequent Diaspora, starting as early as the 3rd century BCE. Jewish communities migrated voluntarily for trade, or were brought as prisoners of war following the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple in 70 CE, settling initially in southern Italy, Greece, and Spain.

Following these early migrations, these communities grew over the medieval period, establishing deep roots across the continent, particularly in Germany and Spain, before moving eastward.

But I'm not sure this has anything to do with the claim of the OP. I believe he is making a Darwinian and geopolitical argument. They are almost a couple of thousand years removed from being from Israel. It's a valid argument. The people emigrating to Israel have less of a claim on the land than the people who have been occupying it. Regardless of what they are called now.

 

[shockedcanadian]

The language of Abraham was called Hurrian or a pre-Caanite Hebrew or something. The history of language would tell alot in regards to this history, the movement of any people is common, especially the Jews so I do not know what this might prove. Judaism has always been a religion followed historically by such a small group of people that it would seem to me to be difficult for Jews in Europe who suffered the Holocaust to not be correctly identified in 1948. No one is just going to randomly inherit such a specific set of rituals and beliefs that has never been popular especially at that horrific juncture in history. The fact that Judaism does not encourage converts should settle this argument as to the authenticity of the vast numbers in Israel being for Jewish descendents. If I converted to become a Jew, would this mean I could not call Israel home simply because my DNA does not match those direct descendents of Abraham? Jews has been scattered around the globe for centuries, different races,.hair colours and identities, victims of repeated war and strife. Israels founders core mission statement was to support Judaism and the teaching of the Torah some of which still exists today. This was for purpose, to protect the llight of Judaism teachings. All of this just sounds like someone looking to chase a rabbit to sow doubt into Israels legitimacy as a nation.

 

[fncceo]

How crazy is this?

Really effin’ crazy.

 

[alang1216]

When the Jews returned from Babylon, they began the "Oral Law" in earnest. And that "Oral Law" was strongly Honored in the New Testament.

They went to Babylon as polytheists and returned as monotheists, thank to Zoroaster.

 

[alang1216]

So you believe they went through bad times (effect) and then said that was God (cause) and then went through good times (effect) and said that was God (cause). Is that what you are arguing? If so, what is that belief based upon? Why do you believe that?

As an atheist it is the most logical explanation.

 

[ding]

As an atheist it is the most logical explanation.

That's actually worse than circular logic. It's circular logic taken on faith. It's incorrect too.

Because of Judah's persistent disobedience, idolatry, and covenant breaking Jeremiah predicted that Jerusalem would be handed over to the king of Babylon due to "sword, famine, and plague," which occurred in 586 BC (Jeremiah 32:36-37).

As a judgment for their ungodly rebellion and idolatry Isaiah prophesied that within 65 years, Ephraim (the northern kingdom) would no longer be a people. This was fulfilled when Assyria conquered the region and deported the population (Isaiah 7:14-16).

Despite defeat Jeremiah's prophecy promised that God would return the people to the land of Israel (Jeremiah 32). A major purpose of the return was to transform the people inwardly, so they would no longer follow the "stubbornness of their evil hearts," culminating in the new covenant.

I'm almost certain my belief of what it means to forget God is significantly different than yours. Which is why you couldn't understand cause and effect and I can. But if you want to look at observations that were made after the fact I submit Abraham Lincoln and Alexander Solzhenitsyn's observations about men forgetting God.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn
“More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: ‘Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval...But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’” “Templeton Lecture, May 10, 1983,” in The Solzhenitsyn Reader: New and Essential Writings, 1947-2005, eds. Edward E. Ericson, Jr. and Daniel J. Mahoney (Wilmington, DE: Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2006), 577

Abraham Lincoln
“We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God...

...We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us...and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own...

...Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us! It behooves us, then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness." Abraham Lincoln, “Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day” in Collected Works. The Abraham Lincoln Association, Springfield, Illinois, ed. Roy P. Basler (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953), 6:155-157.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Khazars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know. You hear and read some crazy shit on YouTube and some of it you just have to say is bat-shit crazy and should be ignored.

And along this line, I happened across a video...



...in which the speaker said with great authority that the Jews of today are NOT the biblical Jews. The biblical Jews were dispersed throughout the Western World, integrated into native populations, and have been lost to history. There is, he asserts, no current Jewish DNA that relates back to the Semitic people who wrote and are written about in the Torah and the Christian Bible. THESE Jews are descendants of the Khazars, a totally unrelated (genetically) group whose patriarch converted his kingdom to rabbinical Judaism as a way of promoting moral and ethical behavior.

He cities research texts from the past couple hundred years, asserting that they are authoritative and historically correct, based on what is now known about genetics.

How crazy is this?

This old theory never dies
That's because Satan needs to discredit God and FULFILLED prophecy

 

[alang1216]

That's actually worse than circular logic. It's circular logic taken on faith. It's incorrect too.

Because of Judah's persistent disobedience, idolatry, and covenant breaking Jeremiah predicted that Jerusalem would be handed over to the king of Babylon due to "sword, famine, and plague," which occurred in 586 BC (Jeremiah 32:36-37).

As a judgment for their ungodly rebellion and idolatry Isaiah prophesied that within 65 years, Ephraim (the northern kingdom) would no longer be a people. This was fulfilled when Assyria conquered the region and deported the population (Isaiah 7:14-16).

Do you really need God to warn you that living near the expansionist superpowers of your day would put you in the crosshairs? And of course, no later scribe might adjust the facts to fit the theology.

Despite defeat Jeremiah's prophecy promised that God would return the people to the land of Israel (Jeremiah 32). A major purpose of the return was to transform the people inwardly, so they would no longer follow the "stubbornness of their evil hearts," culminating in the new covenant.

Of course, if he had been wrong no one would ever have heard of him.

I'm almost certain my belief of what it means to forget God is significantly different than yours. Which is why you couldn't understand cause and effect and I can.

So what percentage of Israelites 'forgot God'? 100%? 10%? People then are same as people are now. Some will forget, some will remember, and most will be somewhere between the two.

But if you want to look at observations that were made after the fact I submit Abraham Lincoln and Alexander Solzhenitsyn's observations about men forgetting God.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn
“More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: ‘Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval...But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’” “Templeton Lecture, May 10, 1983,” in The Solzhenitsyn Reader: New and Essential Writings, 1947-2005, eds. Edward E. Ericson, Jr. and Daniel J. Mahoney (Wilmington, DE: Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2006), 577

Abraham Lincoln
“We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God...

...We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us...and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own...

...Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us! It behooves us, then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness." Abraham Lincoln, “Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day” in Collected Works. The Abraham Lincoln Association, Springfield, Illinois, ed. Roy P. Basler (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953), 6:155-157.

Forgetting God may be accurate for the Soviets but I bet the Confederates would strongly disagree and point to the winners in the North as the forgetters, e.g. Attributing success to personal abilities, skills, or strength rather than God’s blessing. Even the Soviets would claim they were helping to free the people from oppression, who could not support such a goal.

 

[ding]

Do you really need God to warn you that living near the expansionist superpowers of your day would put you in the crosshairs? And of course, no later scribe might adjust the facts to fit the theology.

Or successful behaviors do actually lead to success and failed behaviors do actually lead to failure. Success leads to complacency and suffering leads to change for the better.

Of course, if he had been wrong no one would ever have heard of him.

Or you got proven wrong and rather than admit it, you post this instead.

So what percentage of Israelites 'forgot God'? 100%? 10%? People then are same as people are now. Some will forget, some will remember, and most will be somewhere between the two.

I bet you would argue water isn't wet.

Forgetting God may be accurate for the Soviets but I bet the Confederates would strongly disagree and point to the winners in the North as the forgetters, e.g. Attributing success to personal abilities, skills, or strength rather than God’s blessing. Even the Soviets would claim they were helping to free the people from oppression, who could not support such a goal.

It was the Democrats who forgot God.

 

[alang1216]

Or successful behaviors do actually lead to success and failed behaviors do actually lead to failure. Success leads to complacency and suffering leads to change for the better.

Which of the behaviors of the Israelites lead to success and which behaviors lead to failure? We're only talking here about 'forgetting God'.

Or you got proven wrong and rather than admit it, you post this instead.

Or you have proven nothing, realize you are on a no-win path, and rather than admit it, you post this instead.

I bet you would argue water isn't wet.

I bet you avoid answering questions you don't have a good answer for.

It was the Democrats who forgot God.

So you've given up and just feel unhinged accusations are all you got.

 

[ding]

Which of the behaviors of the Israelites lead to success and which behaviors lead to failure? We're only talking here about 'forgetting God'.

You are like a dog with a bone. Read the post I made. It was in there.

Or you have proven nothing, realize you are on a no-win path, and rather than admit it, you post this instead.

I've read the 4th Turning which is saying the same thing in secular language so there's that. But if you can't see how success leads to complacency and backsliding, I probably can't convince you of that anymore than I can convince you that suffering leads to successful behaviors. You are arguing against history and logic.

I bet you avoid answering questions you don't have a good answer for.

Why would I need to do that if I was seeking truth?

So you've given up and just feel unhinged accusations are all you got.

I couldn't be happier for you to believe that. I trust God. I don't feel compelled to do anything more than testify to the truth. What you do with it is up to you because I trust God.

 

[TruthSeeker112125]

"Jews", is a Common Title, hung on those who suffered through the Holocaust of WW2, with the result being many of those "Jews" being relocated to the "Land of Israel", & re-establishing the Nation of Yisrael, with U.N. Support.

"Jews", is a Common Title, hung on those who deny the Resurrected, & Soon Returning Messiah, for these "Jews" sought during New Testament times, & even now,.... A "Warrior King", who will return "Yisrael" to it's former Glory.

"Jews", is a Common Title, hung on those who allegedly are "United in Belief", but, instead they are fractured in to at least ten very different Sects/"Movements", that range from the largest "Movements" that practice the upholding of the Written Down "Oral Law", which is called the "Talmud", & other "Works", (that came about during the time of the Second Temple), to the practice of "Kabbalah" which is similar to "Witchcraft", to..... "Jews" that zealously Honor The Messiah, although their number is vastly smaller than the "Talmudists".

"Jews", is a Common Title, which is often abused, even by the "Jews" their selves, by their claiming to the World, that they are "All of the Children of Yisrael", which is a verifiable lie.

The "Jews" are One Tribe, of the Thirteen Physical Tribes, of the Children of Yisrael:

Num 1:2 “Take a census of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of the names, every male, one by one;
Num 1:3 from twenty years old and upward, all who are able to go out to war in Israel. You and Aaron shall count them by their divisions.
Num 1:4 With you there shall be a man of every tribe; everyone head of his fathers’ house.
Num 1:5 These are the names of the men who shall stand with you: Of Reuben: Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 1:6 Of Simeon: Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Num 1:7 Of Judah: Nahshon the son of Amminadab. (The Jews)
Num 1:8 Of Issachar: Nethanel the son of Zuar.
Num 1:9 Of Zebulun: Eliab the son of Helon.
Num 1:10 Of the children of Joseph: Of Ephraim: Elishama the son of Ammihud. Of Manasseh: Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Num 1:11 Of Benjamin: Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Num 1:12 Of Dan: Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Num 1:13 Of Asher: Pagiel the son of Ochran.
Num 1:14 Of Gad: Eliasaph the son of Deuel.
Num 1:15 Of Naphtali: Ahira the son of Enan.”
Num 1:16 These are those who were called of the congregation, the princes of the tribes of their fathers; they were the heads of the thousands of Israel.

Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not counted among them.
Num 1:48 For Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 1:49 “Only the tribe of Levi you shall not count, neither shall you take a census of them among the children of Israel;

The "Jews" also are Scripturally known as the "House of Judah", which consists of the Tribes of "Judah, Benjamin, & Levi". This "House", as well as the "House of Israel" came about upon Solomon's death, & his son Rehoboam taking the throne of Israel. These Two "Houses" will not be re-united, & become The "Children of Israel", until The End Times Prophecies are nearly fulfilled.:

1Ki 12:16 When all Israel saw that the king didn’t listen to them, the people answered the king, saying, “What portion have we in David? We don’t have an inheritance in the son of Jesse. To your tents, Israel! Now see to your own house, David.” So Israel departed to their tents.
1Ki 12:17 But as for the children of Israel who lived in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of mine they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says Yahweh.
Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and I will write it in their heart. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.
Eze 37:22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will be king to them all. They will no longer be two nations. They won’t be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
Eze 37:23 They won’t defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. So they will be my people, and I will be their God.

Are Today's "Jews" all of the "Children of Yisrael",.... Absolutely Not!

Do Today's "Jews" keep the "Faith", that will allow them entry in to The Kingdom of Heaven?

NO!,....just like the Catholic/"Christian" Faiths, that all proclaim "Lord!", that Walk in their Way, but not that of The Almighty LORD GOD,.... Only a "Remnant" will enter The Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[The Irish Ram]

...in which the speaker said with great authority that the Jews of today are NOT the biblical Jews. The biblical Jews were dispersed throughout the Western World, integrated into native populations, and have been lost to history.

Lost to us maybe. Not lost to God:

Micah 2:12 “I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob,
I will surely gather the remnant of Israel.
I will put them together like sheep in the fold;


Zephaniah 3:20 “At that time I will bring you in,
Even at the time when I gather you together
Isaiah 27:12
In that day the Lord will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel


Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare in the coastlands afar off,
And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him
And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock
Isaiah 56:8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”

Ezekiel 39:27 When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.

Isaiah 11:11-12 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain,
From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.
And He will lift up a standard for the nations.
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

^^ Kind of hard to miss if you have read the Bible.
And note, for those who try to make a distinction between a Zionist and a Jew, God does not share your bullshit...

 

[konradv]

Khazars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know. You hear and read some crazy shit on YouTube and some of it you just have to say is bat-shit crazy and should be ignored.

And along this line, I happened across a video...



...in which the speaker said with great authority that the Jews of today are NOT the biblical Jews. The biblical Jews were dispersed throughout the Western World, integrated into native populations, and have been lost to history. There is, he asserts, no current Jewish DNA that relates back to the Semitic people who wrote and are written about in the Torah and the Christian Bible. THESE Jews are descendants of the Khazars, a totally unrelated (genetically) group whose patriarch converted his kingdom to rabbinical Judaism as a way of promoting moral and ethical behavior.

He cities research texts from the past couple hundred years, asserting that they are authoritative and historically correct, based on what is now known about genetics.

How crazy is this?

No current Jewish DNA relating back to Semitic origins is a gross overstatement. The theory espoused by the video has been debunked repeatedly. Of course there’s been interbreeding, but no disappearance.

Genetic studies of Jews - Wikipedia