The Fair Tax Primer

[Some Guy]

Taxes are never "fair". Fuck government and fuck taxation.

No income tax, corporate tax or anything else.

Pay for the roads when you buy fuel. Be assessed for defense, courts, police etc and then screw everything else. Pay for your own kids education.

This stupid idea of taking money from those that earn it and giving away to those that didn't earn it has to stop.

I don't necessarily disagree but it's an entirely different argument. You're basically saying "no government at all" while the thread is tackling with "ok, so there's a government, how do we fund it?" The size and scale of the government being funded isn't at issue here.

 

[martybegan]

I believe we should repeal income taxes and enact a Fair Tax.

I believe consumption taxes are superior to taxes on production.

At the same time, I acknowledge a sales tax is regressive.

There are at least two big advantages to a sales tax, however. First, everyone has to pay it. Second, it is a lot harder to hide a tax hike.

You want to give free puppies to hookers? Fine, we'll raise the sales tax to pay for that.

Say what!?!

Suddenly, people won't be so quick to give away taxpayer dollars any more. The days of "gimme gimme gimme, and make that guy over there pay for it" will end. A hike in the Fair Tax will affect everyone!


The Fair Tax is a kind of sales tax, however it attempts to mitigate the regressive nature of a sales tax with a "prebate".

Each month, every adult American would receive a stipend which would offset the tax on things we all have to buy to survive. The prebate would be the same for everyone. A person in abject poverty gets the same prebate as Bill Gates.

That, in a nutshell, is the Fair Tax.

In subsequent posts, I will discuss some of the difficulties in implementing the Fair Tax. But let's get the ball rolling with your thoughts first.

Why not just scale the tax rate like income tax? To me the whole idea of everyone getting a monthly government check is a non-starter.

Exempt non-prepared food, exempt medicine, and clothes under $50 bucks.

Everything else gets taxed on a rising scale.

As soon as you open the door to exemptions, you have opened the door to wide spread corruption. Our current tax structure has been thoroughly corrupted by carve-outs for special interests. We need to slam that door and nail it shut. ZERO exemptions.

Otherwise, you will have politicians being bribed with large wads of campaign cash to exempt milk, coal, yachts, rubber duckies, popsicles with plastic sticks (but not wooden ones), Trump office supplies, and so on and so on and so on.

As soon as you allow exemptions, you have to increase the Fair Tax to offset those exemptions. Everyone suffers for it. Exemptions are theft.

I think making everyone dependent on a government check every month is far worse, and far worse than the current situation.

Everyone is already dependent on the government. They are dependent on the government for their child tax credit, their mortgage insurance deduction, their employer sponsored health insurance tax exemption, and so on and so on and so on.

They are dependent to the tune of $1.4 trillion of gifts every year!

But now your plan puts it right in front of people. The government becomes your sugar daddy explicitly.

 

[Some Guy]

Sweet topic g5000 . It'll be sad to see it fade off the top of the list so quickly since most people here are only interested in trying to dunk on the others' collective heads with various stories from their biased news sources.

 

[HappyJoy]

I believe we should repeal income taxes and enact a Fair Tax.

I believe consumption taxes are superior to taxes on production.

At the same time, I acknowledge a sales tax is regressive.

There are at least two big advantages to a sales tax, however. First, everyone has to pay it. Second, it is a lot harder to hide a tax hike.

You want to give free puppies to hookers? Fine, we'll raise the sales tax to pay for that.

Say what!?!

Suddenly, people won't be so quick to give away taxpayer dollars any more. The days of "gimme gimme gimme, and make that guy over there pay for it" will end. A hike in the Fair Tax will affect everyone!


The Fair Tax is a kind of sales tax, however it attempts to mitigate the regressive nature of a sales tax with a "prebate".

Each month, every adult American would receive a stipend which would offset the tax on things we all have to buy to survive. The prebate would be the same for everyone. A person in abject poverty gets the same prebate as Bill Gates.

That, in a nutshell, is the Fair Tax.

In subsequent posts, I will discuss some of the difficulties in implementing the Fair Tax. But let's get the ball rolling with your thoughts first.

I tend to think there is a reason the poor don't pay taxes they can't afford.

 

[NightFox]

… and what odds do you give that of happening ?

I can dream, can't I?

Yep, you sure can.

Personally I'm highly skeptical that in our current propaganda soaked, hyper-partisan rancor filled environment we could get a constitutional amendment passed declaring that the sky is legally blue, we'd have endless partisan bickering over whether it's really blue or if it's actually teal.

 

[Aldo Raine]

The "official" Fair Tax twitter: FairTax® Official (@FairTaxOfficial) | Twitter

Only #FAIRtax #Abolishes IRS and ends tax lobbying. Added together a great start on #DrainTheSwamp. BigSolution.org #FAIRtax will #MTFA.

Interesting, it is far different then the tax plan you have talked about on this site before. Why the change of heart? Not criticizing just curious.

 

[Some Guy]

But now your plan puts it right in front of people. The government becomes your sugar daddy explicitly.

I think you're not completely off-base. The idea of the government controlling what is an acceptable amount of money for a "minimal" or "basic" standard of living turns my stomach. And the idea of the government sending me a check every month like a permission slip to buy food does as well.

Relative to what we have going on now though? Some distorted amalgam of convoluted and complicated laws whereby the government will preemptively take some amount of your money and hold onto it for you? That's worse. So from a relative standpoint, it's a reluctant improvement.

From there, the idea of taxing consumption rather than income... i love it. Rather than government directly stealing your labor from you, you're in more control of just how much tax you pay in relation to just how much you want to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

[martybegan]

But now your plan puts it right in front of people. The government becomes your sugar daddy explicitly.

I think you're not completely off-base. The idea of the government controlling what is an acceptable amount of money for a "minimal" or "basic" standard of living turns my stomach. And the idea of the government sending me a check every month like a permission slip to buy food does as well.

Relative to what we have going on now though? Some distorted amalgam of convoluted and complicated laws whereby the government will preemptively take some amount of your money and hold onto it for you? That's worse. So from a relative standpoint, it's a reluctant improvement.

From there, the idea of taxing consumption rather than income... i love it. Rather than government directly stealing your labor from you, you're in more control of just how much tax you pay in relation to just how much you want to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

I agree as well, but I don't have G5000's deathwish on any exemptions for certain low cost nessasary items.

 

[Some Guy]

I agree as well, but I don't have G5000's deathwish on any exemptions for certain low cost nessasary items.

Perhaps the same goal could be achieved via a designation on certain items that simply aren't taxed. Slippery slope there for sure, but food (or certain food items), toilet paper, shampoo, etc... that's all not taxed at all. So you could avoid paying taxes if all you bought was warehouses worth of toilet paper and shampoo, but otherwise you're going to be paying into the government if want internet, want to drive places, have a cellphone, etc.

 

[Flash]

Taxes are never "fair". Fuck government and fuck taxation.

No income tax, corporate tax or anything else.

Pay for the roads when you buy fuel. Be assessed for defense, courts, police etc and then screw everything else. Pay for your own kids education.

This stupid idea of taking money from those that earn it and giving away to those that didn't earn it has to stop.

I don't necessarily disagree but it's an entirely different argument. You're basically saying "no government at all" while the thread is tackling with "ok, so there's a government, how do we fund it?" The size and scale of the government being funded isn't at issue here.

I think there are some basic government services that we need. Defense, courts, police, State Dept, etc.

Every American should pay equally for those services.

We need to pool our money for roads and other infrastructure but that can be taken care of through user fees like the fuel tax.

I don't even mind paying for a community literacy education provided it is managed at the local level.

The problem is not how we are taxed. Changing the tax structure doesn't do a damn thing except reshuffle the mix of winners and losers.

The problem is that we spend too much money for government. Four trillion for this bloated out of control Federal government and another over three trillion for State and Local.

The combined Federal, State and Local burden is close to 40% of the GDP and that is despicable. According to the CIA Factbook we spend more money for the cost of government than the GDP of all except two or three other countries on earth.

In most American household the cost of combined government either directly or indirectly is the largest single family expenditure.

We need to stop spending money on government and reduce the size to only the basic necessities. Definitely no more welfare, subsidies, entitlements or bailouts. That goes for foreign and domestic.

If we did that then everything would be fair and equitable. The cost of government would not be a burden on families and the economy would boom.

 

[martybegan]

I agree as well, but I don't have G5000's deathwish on any exemptions for certain low cost nessasary items.

Perhaps the same goal could be achieved via a designation on certain items that simply aren't taxed. Slippery slope there for sure, but food (or certain food items), toilet paper, shampoo, etc... that's all not taxed at all. So you could avoid paying taxes if all you bought was warehouses worth of toilet paper and shampoo, but otherwise you're going to be paying into the government if want internet, want to drive places, have a cellphone, etc.

And rich people will pay more because

1) They like more expensive things
2) they have more disposable income to buy more things quantitatively.

 

[BluesLegend]

First cut BLOATED government spending then we can talk about taxes.

 

[fncceo]

Fair tax for me is not having to pay them.

 

[Some Guy]

I think there are some basic government services that we need. Defense, courts, police, State Dept, etc.

Every American should pay equally for those services.

They don't now, and never will. Until people make exactly the same amount of money AND consume the same amount of resources, you can't achieve that goal no matter what.

We need to pool our money for roads and other infrastructure but that can be taken care of through user fees like the fuel tax.

A fuel tax is just a sales tax on fuel, which is what's being proposed here: all taxes collected via sales/consumption taxes.

The problem is not how we are taxed. Changing the tax structure doesn't do a damn thing except reshuffle the mix of winners and losers.

The problem is that we spend too much money for government. Four trillion for this bloated out of control Federal government and another over three trillion for State and Local.

The combined Federal, State and Local burden is close to 40% of the GDP and that is despicable. According to the CIA Factbook we spend more money for the cost of government than the GDP of all except two or three other countries on earth.

In most American household the cost of combined government either directly or indirectly is the largest single family expenditure.

We need to stop spending money on government and reduce the size to only the basic necessities. Definitely no more welfare, subsidies, entitlements or bailouts. That goes for foreign and domestic.

If we did that then everything would be fair and equitable. The cost of government would not be a burden on families and the economy would boom.

You're contradicting yourself here. The premise of the Fair tax (as i understand it here anyway) is that it makes taxes more visible, simple and based on how much you use, not earn. One reason the government is so bloated is that it's been able to sneakily tax just about everything that most people don't truly understand. So the vehicle by which you tax people certainly does have an affect on how government can get away with (or not) raising taxes on people.

If you're in favor of limited government, which you obviously are (i am too), then you should definitely be on board with a fair tax if for no other reason than it forces government to be transparent about the level of taxes it's imposing on you.

 

[Some Guy]

And rich people will pay more because

1) They like more expensive things
2) they have more disposable income to buy more things quantitatively.

Agreed. I have heard arguments against this sort of taxation system from the big government types that it's NOT fair because rich people can just sit on mountains of cash, thus not paying taxes on it and not investing it back into the economy. I love that because it forces their own greed right out into the open. It also forces them to acknowledge that people who get rich do so in order to spend their money, not just sit on all of it. And of course, thereby completely discredits their arguments for things like progressive income taxes and higher capital gains taxes.

 

[Muhammed]

I believe we should repeal income taxes and enact a Fair Tax.

I believe consumption taxes are superior to taxes on production.

At the same time, I acknowledge a sales tax is regressive.

There are at least two big advantages to a sales tax, however. First, everyone has to pay it. Second, it is a lot harder to hide a tax hike.

You want to give free puppies to hookers? Fine, we'll raise the sales tax to pay for that.

Say what!?!

Suddenly, people won't be so quick to give away taxpayer dollars any more. The days of "gimme gimme gimme, and make that guy over there pay for it" will end. A hike in the Fair Tax will affect everyone!


The Fair Tax is a kind of sales tax, however it attempts to mitigate the regressive nature of a sales tax with a "prebate".

Each month, every adult American would receive a stipend which would offset the tax on things we all have to buy to survive. The prebate would be the same for everyone. A person in abject poverty gets the same prebate as Bill Gates.

That, in a nutshell, is the Fair Tax.

In subsequent posts, I will discuss some of the difficulties in implementing the Fair Tax. But let's get the ball rolling with your thoughts first.

The huge problem with every "Fair Tax" proposal I've seen is that they are all very regressive.

Regressive taxes fuck poor people and foster bloody revolution.

 

[Flash]

I think there are some basic government services that we need. Defense, courts, police, State Dept, etc.

Every American should pay equally for those services.

They don't now, and never will. Until people make exactly the same amount of money AND consume the same amount of resources, you can't achieve that goal no matter what.

We need to pool our money for roads and other infrastructure but that can be taken care of through user fees like the fuel tax.

A fuel tax is just a sales tax on fuel, which is what's being proposed here: all taxes collected via sales/consumption taxes.

The problem is not how we are taxed. Changing the tax structure doesn't do a damn thing except reshuffle the mix of winners and losers.

The problem is that we spend too much money for government. Four trillion for this bloated out of control Federal government and another over three trillion for State and Local.

The combined Federal, State and Local burden is close to 40% of the GDP and that is despicable. According to the CIA Factbook we spend more money for the cost of government than the GDP of all except two or three other countries on earth.

In most American household the cost of combined government either directly or indirectly is the largest single family expenditure.

We need to stop spending money on government and reduce the size to only the basic necessities. Definitely no more welfare, subsidies, entitlements or bailouts. That goes for foreign and domestic.

If we did that then everything would be fair and equitable. The cost of government would not be a burden on families and the economy would boom.

You're contradicting yourself here. The premise of the Fair tax (as i understand it here anyway) is that it makes taxes more visible, simple and based on how much you use, not earn. One reason the government is so bloated is that it's been able to sneakily tax just about everything that most people don't truly understand. So the vehicle by which you tax people certainly does have an affect on how government can get away with (or not) raising taxes on people.

If you're in favor of limited government, which you obviously are (i am too), then you should definitely be on board with a fair tax if for no other reason than it forces government to be transparent about the level of taxes it's imposing on you.

You may be confused at the point I was making. Either my fault or your fault.

My position is that we spend too much on government.

The harm in collecting the amount of money needed to sustain this bloated out control monstrosity of a combined government is the problem. Changing how it is collected only changes the mix of winners and losers.

Lets first talk about sensible sized minimal government then we can talk about how to fund it in an equitable manner.

What is called a "fair tax" may be an improvement over what we have now but if the result is that we are still spending 40% of the GDP then we have gained nothing.

I would propose that instead of changing the way we collect taxes that we first stop spending so much money on the government. Everything will work out after that.

 

[Some Guy]

You may be confused at the point I was making. Either my fault or your fault.

My position is that we spend too much on government.

The harm in collecting the amount of money needed to sustain this bloated out control monstrosity of a combined government is the problem. Changing how it is collected only changes the mix of winners and losers.

Lets first talk about sensible sized minimal government then we can talk about how to fund it in an equitable manner.

What is called a "fair tax" may be an improvement over what we have now but if the result is that we are still spending 40% of the GDP then we have gained nothing.

I would propose that instead of changing the way we collect taxes that we first stop spending so much money on the government. Everything will work out after that.

I understand what you're saying, and i agree, but it's not realistic. The very existence of government justifies more government. Therefore, the reality of what you want here is 0%. There's no incentive for anyone in government or big business to force anyone else to truly pare down government. It just won't happen.

What i'm saying is that a shock to the system of how the government is funded is what's needed to force the conversation you want. Considering you'd need probably an additional 50% (wild ass guess on my part) in sales tax on everything to make up for the loss of what the government is getting by various other means, it would force people to go "wait, that's how much we pay in taxes right now? This is some shit, where is all this tax money going anyway?"

 

[g5000]

The "official" Fair Tax twitter: FairTax® Official (@FairTaxOfficial) | Twitter

Only #FAIRtax #Abolishes IRS and ends tax lobbying. Added together a great start on #DrainTheSwamp. BigSolution.org #FAIRtax will #MTFA.

Interesting, it is far different then the tax plan you have talked about on this site before. Why the change of heart? Not criticizing just curious.

I have talked about the Fair Tax countless times!

Go to the search function on this forum and look for "Fair Tax" under my username.

Surprise!

 

[g5000]

I believe we should repeal income taxes and enact a Fair Tax.

I believe consumption taxes are superior to taxes on production.

At the same time, I acknowledge a sales tax is regressive.

There are at least two big advantages to a sales tax, however. First, everyone has to pay it. Second, it is a lot harder to hide a tax hike.

You want to give free puppies to hookers? Fine, we'll raise the sales tax to pay for that.

Say what!?!

Suddenly, people won't be so quick to give away taxpayer dollars any more. The days of "gimme gimme gimme, and make that guy over there pay for it" will end. A hike in the Fair Tax will affect everyone!


The Fair Tax is a kind of sales tax, however it attempts to mitigate the regressive nature of a sales tax with a "prebate".

Each month, every adult American would receive a stipend which would offset the tax on things we all have to buy to survive. The prebate would be the same for everyone. A person in abject poverty gets the same prebate as Bill Gates.

That, in a nutshell, is the Fair Tax.

In subsequent posts, I will discuss some of the difficulties in implementing the Fair Tax. But let's get the ball rolling with your thoughts first.

Why not just scale the tax rate like income tax? To me the whole idea of everyone getting a monthly government check is a non-starter.

Exempt non-prepared food, exempt medicine, and clothes under $50 bucks.

Everything else gets taxed on a rising scale.

As soon as you open the door to exemptions, you have opened the door to wide spread corruption. Our current tax structure has been thoroughly corrupted by carve-outs for special interests. We need to slam that door and nail it shut. ZERO exemptions.

Otherwise, you will have politicians being bribed with large wads of campaign cash to exempt milk, coal, yachts, rubber duckies, popsicles with plastic sticks (but not wooden ones), Trump office supplies, and so on and so on and so on.

As soon as you allow exemptions, you have to increase the Fair Tax to offset those exemptions. Everyone suffers for it. Exemptions are theft.

I think making everyone dependent on a government check every month is far worse, and far worse than the current situation.

Everyone is already dependent on the government. They are dependent on the government for their child tax credit, their mortgage insurance deduction, their employer sponsored health insurance tax exemption, and so on and so on and so on.

They are dependent to the tune of $1.4 trillion of gifts every year!

But now your plan puts it right in front of people. The government becomes your sugar daddy explicitly.

That's the definition of transparency!

A great many of the people on this forum have demonstrated they are incredibly ignorant of just how dependent on the government they are. Including yourself!