The Fable of the siege.

[P F Tinmore]

Where does it said Israel did not place blockade over10 months pastthe Gaza withdrawal?
I don't understand what are you trying to say.. Its historical fact.

Then surely you must have a link.

And for the terrorism - the definition of terrorists I'm referring to is the one of the US and Israel.. we're not in IranMessageBoard remember?

OK then, define a terrorist organization. Then tell me how Hamas fits that definition.

 

[toastman]

A terrorist organization contains militants who's goal is to cause terror against another population through different types of attacks while not distinguishing between civilians or combatants, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological goal.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the sooner they are eradicated , the better for Palestinians.

Also, they are listed as such by many countries.

 

[Daniyel]

Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel completes Gaza withdrawal
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2002?06 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Do your homework.

You just missed the list of links I made Tinmore?
Anyway the blockade doesn't exist forever like you all tend to believe, how about reading?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Daniyel, et al,

The priority of Israel, and indeed any nation, is to protect and defend the sovereign integrity of the state and citizenry. Everyone knows this.

Relative to the question, Gaza represents an "active" threat to Israeli sovereign integrity and citizenry safety of the State.

Where does it said Israel did not place blockade over10 months pastthe Gaza withdrawal?
I don't understand what are you trying to say.. Its historical fact.

Then surely you must have a link.

And for the terrorism - the definition of terrorists I'm referring to is the one of the US and Israel.. we're not in IranMessageBoard remember?

OK then, define a terrorist organization. Then tell me how Hamas fits that definition.

(OBSERVATIONS)

From the greater generalizations to the specifics of the Gaza Strip:

Global Recognitions and Considerations:

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,
Reaffirming the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence as recognized by the Charter of the United Nations as reiterated in resolution 1368 (2001),
Reaffirming the need to combat by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts,
Reaffirming the principle established by the General Assembly in its declaration of October 1970 (resolution 2625 (XXV)) and reiterated by the Security Council in its resolution 1189 (1998) of 13 August 1998, namely that every State has the duty to refrain from organizing, instigating, assisting or participating in terrorist acts in another State or acquiescing in organized activities within its territory directed towards the commission of such acts,

3(e) Increase cooperation and fully implement the relevant international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism and Security Council resolutions 1269 (1999) and 1368 (2001);

SOURCE: S/RES/1373 (2001)

4. Calls also on the international community to redouble their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts including by increased cooperation and full implementation of the relevant international anti-terrorist conventions and Security Council resolutions, in particular resolution 1269 (1999) of 19 October 1999;

SOURCE: S/RES/1368 (2001)

Condemning all acts of terrorism, irrespective of motive, wherever and by whomever committed,

1. Unequivocally condemns all acts, methods and practices of terrorism as criminal and unjustifiable, regardless of their motivation, in all their forms and manifestations, wherever and by whomever committed, in particular those which could threaten international peace and security;

2. Calls upon all States to implement fully the international anti-terrorist conventions to which they are parties, encourages all States to consider as a matter of priority adhering to those to which they are not parties, and encourages also the speedy adoption of the pending conventions;

4. Calls upon all States to take, inter alia, in the context of such cooperation and coordination, appropriate steps to:

• - cooperate with each other, particularly through bilateral and multilateral agreements and arrangements, to prevent and suppress terrorist acts, protect their nationals and other persons against terrorist attacks and bring to justice the perpetrators of such acts;
• - prevent and suppress in their territories through all lawful means the preparation and financing of any acts of terrorism;
• - deny those who plan, finance or commit terrorist acts safe havens by ensuring their apprehension and prosecution or extradition;
• - take appropriate measures in conformity with the relevant provisions of national and international law, including international standards of human rights, before granting refugee status, for the purpose of ensuring that the asylum-seeker has not participated in terrorist acts;
• - exchange information in accordance with international and domestic law, and cooperate on administrative and judicial matters in order to prevent the commission of terrorist acts;

SOURCE: S/RES/1269 (1999)

Regional Security Recognitions:

What constitutes a terrorist act under Common Position 2001/931/CFSP?

Article 1(3) of Common Position 2001/931/CFSP sets out the meaning of "terrorist act".
"Terrorist acts" mean intentional acts which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or international organisation and which are defined as an offence under national law. These include:

• attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;
• attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;
• kidnapping or hostage taking;
• causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility;
• seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;
• manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives, or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons,
• participating in the activities of a terrorist group, including by supplying information or material resources, or by funding its activities in any way, with knowledge of the fact that such participation will contribute to the criminal activities of the group.​

In order for these acts to constitute terrorist acts, they must be carried out with the aim of seriously intimidating a population, or unduly compelling a Government or an international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation.

SOURCE: G e n e r a l S e c r e t a r i a t o f t h e C o u n c i l July 2013

GROUPS AND ENTITIES

1. ‘Abu Nidal Organisation’ – ‘ANO’ (a.k.a. ‘Fatah Revolutionary Council’, a.k.a. ‘Arab Revolutionary Brigades’, a.k.a. ‘Black September’, a.k.a. ‘Revolutionary Organisation of Socialist Muslims’).
2. ‘Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade’.
3. ‘Al-Aqsa e.V.’.
9. ‘Hamas’, including ‘Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem’.
19. ‘Palestinian Islamic Jihad’ – ‘PIJ’.
20. ‘Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine’ – ‘PFLP’.
21. ‘Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command’ (a.k.a. ‘PFLP – General Command’).​

SOURCE: Official Journal of the European Union L 40/56

Article 1 Terrorist offences and fundamental rights and principles

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional acts referred to below in points (a) to (i), as defined as offences under national law, which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of:

- seriously intimidating a population, or

- unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or

- seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation,​

shall be deemed to be terrorist offences:

(a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;

(b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;

(c) kidnapping or hostage taking;

(d) causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility, including an information system, a fixed platform located on the continental shelf, a public place or private property likely to endanger human life or result in major economic loss;

(e) seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;

(f) manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, as well as research into, and development of, biological and chemical weapons;

(g) release of dangerous substances, or causing fires, floods or explosions the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(h) interfering with or disrupting the supply of water, power or any other fundamental natural resource the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(i) threatening to commit any of the acts listed in (a) to (h).​

2. This Framework Decision shall not have the effect of altering the obligation to respect fundamental rights and fundamental legal principles as enshrined in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union.​

Article 2 Offences relating to a terrorist group

1. For the purposes of this Framework Decision, "terrorist group" shall mean: a structured group of more than two persons, established over a period of time and acting in concert to commit terrorist offences. "Structured group" shall mean a group that is not randomly formed for the immediate commission of an offence and that does not need to have formally defined roles for its members, continuity of its membership or a developed structure.

2. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the following intentional acts are punishable:

(a) directing a terrorist group;

(b) participating in the activities of a terrorist group, including by supplying information or material resources, or by funding its activities in any way, with knowledge of the fact that such participation will contribute to the criminal activities of the terrorist group.​

Article 3 Offences linked to terrorist activities

Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that terrorist-linked offences include the following acts:

(a) aggravated theft with a view to committing one of the acts listed in Article 1(1);

(b) extortion with a view to the perpetration of one of the acts listed in Article 1(1);

(c) drawing up false administrative documents with a view to committing one of the acts listed in Article 1(1)(a) to (h) and Article 2(2)(b).​

Article 4 Inciting, aiding or abetting, and attempting

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that inciting or aiding or abetting an offence referred to in Article 1(1), Articles 2 or 3 is made punishable.

2. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that attempting to commit an offence referred to in Article 1(1) and Article 3, with the exception of possession as provided for in Article 1(1)(f) and the offence referred to in Article 1(1)(i), is made punishable.​

SOURCE: Official Journal L 164 , 22/06/2002 P. 0003 - 0007

(COMMENT)

No one needs to "tell me (YOU) how Hamas fits that definition". The European Union has done that already; no laymans interpretation is required.

Once you understand that HAMAS, the PIJ, and the militant Brigades are terrorist organizations, then you can logically see that:

• The People of Gaza are supporting state terrorism.
• That those Gazan aspects that are engaged in talks are, in effect, terrorist.

You can also see how, the security containment and quarantine is necessary to reduce the spread of terrorism.

To step-up national efforts and bilateral, sub-regional, regional and international co-operation, as appropriate, to improve border and customs controls, in order to prevent and detect the movement of terrorists and to prevent and detect the illicit traffic in, inter alia, small arms and light weapons, conventional ammunition and explosives, nuclear, chemical, biological or radiological weapons and materials, while recognizing that States may require assistance to that effect.
SOURCE: (A/RES/60/288)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Hamas does not operate outside of Palestinian borders.

How is that international?

 

[Daniyel]

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Hamas does not operate outside of Palestinian borders.

How is that international?

Hamas does, the moment the rocket pass the air border above Gaza to Israel it becomes international operation.
The tunnels they dig under the border, the moments they cross to the Israeli side it becomes international operation.
The infiltration assaults they sent to infiltrate Israel from the sea, the moment they get inside the Israeli territorial water, it becomes international operation.
Sending operatives to act inside of Israel makes it international like the mastermind arrested for the three teens killing.
Sending suicide bombers to Israel, the moments they pass the Israeli border it becomes international operation.
It also does not legitimate their government,the Palestinians choosing terrorists makes them a terrorist state like the Palestinians..
When those terrorists begin to assault Israel, its a legitimate action of Israel to act and defend it citizens, this is why its called SELF DEFENSE.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, Daniyel, et al,

The priority of Israel, and indeed any nation, is to protect and defend the sovereign integrity of the state and citizenry. Everyone knows this.

Relative to the question, Gaza represents an "active" threat to Israeli sovereign integrity and citizenry safety of the State.

Where does it said Israel did not place blockade over10 months pastthe Gaza withdrawal?
I don't understand what are you trying to say.. Its historical fact.

Then surely you must have a link.

OK then, define a terrorist organization. Then tell me how Hamas fits that definition.

(OBSERVATIONS)

From the greater generalizations to the specifics of the Gaza Strip:

Global Recognitions and Considerations:

​

Regional Security Recognitions:

Article 1 Terrorist offences and fundamental rights and principles

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional acts referred to below in points (a) to (i), as defined as offences under national law, which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of:

- seriously intimidating a population, or

- unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or

- seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation,​

shall be deemed to be terrorist offences:

(a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;

(b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;

(c) kidnapping or hostage taking;

(d) causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility, including an information system, a fixed platform located on the continental shelf, a public place or private property likely to endanger human life or result in major economic loss;

(e) seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;

(f) manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, as well as research into, and development of, biological and chemical weapons;

(g) release of dangerous substances, or causing fires, floods or explosions the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(h) interfering with or disrupting the supply of water, power or any other fundamental natural resource the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(i) threatening to commit any of the acts listed in (a) to (h).​

2. This Framework Decision shall not have the effect of altering the obligation to respect fundamental rights and fundamental legal principles as enshrined in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union.​

Article 2 Offences relating to a terrorist group

1. For the purposes of this Framework Decision, "terrorist group" shall mean: a structured group of more than two persons, established over a period of time and acting in concert to commit terrorist offences. "Structured group" shall mean a group that is not randomly formed for the immediate commission of an offence and that does not need to have formally defined roles for its members, continuity of its membership or a developed structure.

2. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the following intentional acts are punishable:

(a) directing a terrorist group;

(b) participating in the activities of a terrorist group, including by supplying information or material resources, or by funding its activities in any way, with knowledge of the fact that such participation will contribute to the criminal activities of the terrorist group.​

Article 3 Offences linked to terrorist activities

Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that terrorist-linked offences include the following acts:

(a) aggravated theft with a view to committing one of the acts listed in Article 1(1);

(b) extortion with a view to the perpetration of one of the acts listed in Article 1(1);

(c) drawing up false administrative documents with a view to committing one of the acts listed in Article 1(1)(a) to (h) and Article 2(2)(b).​

Article 4 Inciting, aiding or abetting, and attempting

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that inciting or aiding or abetting an offence referred to in Article 1(1), Articles 2 or 3 is made punishable.

2. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that attempting to commit an offence referred to in Article 1(1) and Article 3, with the exception of possession as provided for in Article 1(1)(f) and the offence referred to in Article 1(1)(i), is made punishable.​

SOURCE: Official Journal L 164 , 22/06/2002 P. 0003 - 0007

(COMMENT)

No one needs to "tell me (YOU) how Hamas fits that definition". The European Union has done that already; no laymans interpretation is required.

Once you understand that HAMAS, the PIJ, and the militant Brigades are terrorist organizations, then you can logically see that:

• The People of Gaza are supporting state terrorism.
• That those Gazan aspects that are engaged in talks are, in effect, terrorist.

You can also see how, the security containment and quarantine is necessary to reduce the spread of terrorism.

To step-up national efforts and bilateral, sub-regional, regional and international co-operation, as appropriate, to improve border and customs controls, in order to prevent and detect the movement of terrorists and to prevent and detect the illicit traffic in, inter alia, small arms and light weapons, conventional ammunition and explosives, nuclear, chemical, biological or radiological weapons and materials, while recognizing that States may require assistance to that effect.
SOURCE: (A/RES/60/288)

Most Respectfully,
R

You are dancing around the issue.

During the 1970s and 1980s, the United Nations attempts to define the term foundered mainly due to differences of opinion between various members about the use of violence in the context of conflicts over national liberation and self-determination."[4] These divergences have made it impossible to conclude a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism that incorporates a single, all-encompassing, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism.[5]

Definitions of terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are legitimate struggles involving national liberation and self-determination.

The UN itself states that the Palestinians have been denied their right to self determination. That category is a stumbling block to a legal definition. It seems that national liberation and self-determination should be excluded from the terrorist definition.

 

[Daniyel]

You are dancing around the issue Tinmore, they assault Israel, they have to die for that, period.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Hamas does not operate outside of Palestinian borders.

How is that international?

Hamas does, the moment the rocket pass the air border above Gaza to Israel it becomes international operation.
The tunnels they dig under the border, the moments they cross to the Israeli side it becomes international operation.
The infiltration assaults they sent to infiltrate Israel from the sea, the moment they get inside the Israeli territorial water, it becomes international operation.
Sending operatives to act inside of Israel makes it international like the mastermind arrested for the three teens killing.
Sending suicide bombers to Israel, the moments they pass the Israeli border it becomes international operation.
It also does not legitimate their government,the Palestinians choosing terrorists makes them a terrorist state like the Palestinians..
When those terrorists begin to assault Israel, its a legitimate action of Israel to act and defend it citizens, this is why its called SELF DEFENSE.

Uhhh, there is no border there.

 

[aris2chat]

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Hamas does not operate outside of Palestinian borders.

How is that international?

when they build tunnels to Israel and Egypt they are operating outside of gaza.

Everytime they fire rocket at Israel they are operating outside of gaza. Every attack on egyptian forces from sinai is operating outside of gaza
Having fundraisers in other countries is operating outside of gaza

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6204

 

[Daniyel]

There is a border, you just need a bigger glasses to spot it.

And by the way, making it international or national terrorism is still what it is, illegal.
Good luck next time!

 

[P F Tinmore]

Reaffirming further that such acts, like any act of international terrorism, constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Hamas does not operate outside of Palestinian borders.

How is that international?

when they build tunnels to Israel and Egypt they are operating outside of gaza.

Everytime they fire rocket at Israel they are operating outside of gaza. Every attack on egyptian forces from sinai is operating outside of gaza
Having fundraisers in other countries is operating outside of gaza

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6204

So you quote Whorowitz. Could you possibly get more biased. This guy is batshit crazy.

 

[Indeependent]

Always have bathroom tissue on hand when reading a Tinmore post.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is a border, you just need a bigger glasses to spot it.

And by the way, making it international or national terrorism is still what it is, illegal.
Good luck next time!

That is the armistice line between Israeli and Egyptian forces.

Is is specifically not the be a political or territorial border.

 

[Daniyel]

It is the border of the PA-Hamas with Israel however, making it international or national it is still terror and illegal, you missed that part..anyway you'll try to twist the borders - it is not the state of Israel, and upon entering the state of Israel territorial jurisdiction it becomes international.
Oslo I Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION]
As I said, good luck next time.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is the border of the PA-Hamas with Israel however, making it international or national it is still terror and illegal, you missed that part..anyway you'll try to twist the borders - it is not the state of Israel, and upon entering the state of Israel territorial jurisdiction it becomes international.
Oslo I Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION]
As I said, good luck next time.

Oslo was a declaration of principles that expired without reaching an agreement.

 

[Daniyel]

It is the border of the PA-Hamas with Israel however, making it international or national it is still terror and illegal, you missed that part..anyway you'll try to twist the borders - it is not the state of Israel, and upon entering the state of Israel territorial jurisdiction it becomes international.
Oslo I Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION]
As I said, good luck next time.

Oslo was a declaration of principles that expired without reaching an agreement.

 

[aris2chat]

It is the border of the PA-Hamas with Israel however, making it international or national it is still terror and illegal, you missed that part..anyway you'll try to twist the borders - it is not the state of Israel, and upon entering the state of Israel territorial jurisdiction it becomes international.
Oslo I Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION]
As I said, good luck next time.

Oslo was a declaration of principles that expired without reaching an agreement.

You don't like what other people have to say so you stomp your foot and shine like small child that does not get his way. Through each thread and each post and every point you refuse a rational, factual explanation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is the border of the PA-Hamas with Israel however, making it international or national it is still terror and illegal, you missed that part..anyway you'll try to twist the borders - it is not the state of Israel, and upon entering the state of Israel territorial jurisdiction it becomes international.
Oslo I Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION]
As I said, good luck next time.

Oslo was a declaration of principles that expired without reaching an agreement.

You don't like what other people have to say so you stomp your foot and shine like small child that does not get his way. Through each thread and each post and every point you refuse a rational, factual explanation.

Oh my, insults.

You must be out of bullets.

 

[fanger]

You don't like what other people have to say so you stomp your foot and shine like small child that does not get his way. Through each thread and each post and every point you refuse a rational, factual explanation.

"shine like small child" there's a nice turn of words

"Through each thread and each post and every point you refuse a H̶a̶s̶b̶a̶r̶a̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶e̶ rational, factual explanation".