The debates

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: Short Answer is that the Arab League set the conditions.

Where does it say that Palestinian citizenship will expire upon the exit of the Mandate?

Link?

(REFERENCE)
A/AC.21/UK/42. 25 February 1948

(COMMENT)

As you can see, it was envisioned that after the 15th May 1948, the United Nations Palestine Commission would have been the administrator of the Government of Palestine. That would have meant that the UNPC would Administer the Citizenship Laws as the representative of the Trustee System.

However, on 15 May 1952, the Arab League invaded the UN Trusteeship and took control of what land of the territory that Israel did not have control. The Jordanians eventually annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem and the Egyptians set up a Military Governorship in Gaza.

The UNPC was never able to re-establish the Government of Palestine; the territory being in the hands of the Arab League.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: Short Answer is that the Arab League set the conditions.


(REFERENCE)
A/AC.21/UK/42. 25 February 1948
View attachment 525607
(COMMENT)

As you can see, it was envisioned that after the 15th May 1948, the United Nations Palestine Commission would have been the administrator of the Government of Palestine. That would have meant that the UNPC would Administer the Citizenship Laws as the representative of the Trustee System.

However, on 15 May 1952, the Arab League invaded the UN Trusteeship and took control of what land of the territory that Israel did not have control. The Jordanians eventually annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem and the Egyptians set up a Military Governorship in Gaza.

The UNPC was never able to re-establish the Government of Palestine; the territory being in the hands of the Arab League.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where does it say that Palestinian nationality and citizenship expire?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: You simply want it to be true, so badly, that you ignore evee3rything else.

Where does it say that Palestinian nationality and citizenship expire?

(COMMENT)

On 15 May 1948, what government were they a citizen of? There was NO Government of Palestine? After the ceasefire, who claimed responsibility as citizens?

Think it through. The UNPC was sine die. There was no territory in the hands of the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

There was NO Government of Palestine?

You keep saying that. The rights of a people do not require a government.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: My original objection was that you were wrong. → "Palestine is a territory defined by international borders. The League of Nations determined that Palestine was a state according to post war treaties."

See: P F Tinmore Posting # 434​

"With this comes the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. Also, no aggression, no conquest, and no annexation."​

You keep saying that. The rights of a people do not require a government.

(COMMENT)

Now (after several exchanges) we have come FULL CIRCLE. Now you are saying something quite different. Now you have taken a position counter to the Customary Law and generally understood position:

ARTICLE 1
Convention on Rights and Duties of States
Signed at Montevideo on December 26, 1933
The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:

​

(a) a permanent population;​

​

(b) a defined territory; ​

​

(c) government; and​

​

(d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.​

The Arab Palestinian, until the Oslo Accords, had no "defined territory" nor did they have a body of people formed into a "recognizable government." In fact, the UN even had made this observation as late as December 2012. So, there was no Arab Palestinian self-governing before 1920, after the implementation of the Government of Palestine, before 1948, and after the ceasefire Armistice arrangements of 1949.

While the actions of the State of Israel and the actions taken by the States of the Arab League - do not affect the rights of the Arab Palestinians, it does not imply that there is a duty of one of the governments to give way to Arab Palestinians in their quest for a State.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Now (after several exchanges) we have come FULL CIRCLE. Now you are saying something quite different. Now you have taken a position counter to the Customary Law and generally understood position:

Not really. Rights predate governments and states. Governments and states are the products of rights not prerequisites.

 

[rylah]

Not really. Rights predate governments and states. Governments and states are the products of rights not prerequisites.

Is there a right to Arab-Muslim supremacy
over the entire Middle East?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: In an idealized world, I might even agree with this; but this has not been true for more than four millennia and dating back to the time of ancient Sumerians (≈ 4000 years ago). One of the oldest sets of laws (simple) the Code of Ur-Nammu. The Code of Hammurabi is well over 3000 years old.

Not really. Rights predate governments and states. Governments and states are the products of rights not prerequisites.

(COMMENT)

The idea that human rights are inalienable is a relatively new concept as far as the history of man developed. John Locke (1632–1704) was the first big champion of natural law, liberalism, and inalienable rights. The contemporary list of Human Rights only dates back a little more than half a century ago; the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR). And those laws are not universally accepted. And while the CCPR says: "All peoples have the right of self-determination." it also says:

The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.​

Why is it worded that way? Well, → there are still countries that hold Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories under its authority.

The Arab Palestinians have made a huge mess of the small territory. The Arab World, and along with a few Allied Powers, contributed to the political uncertainty and political instability in the small territory. And the Arab Palestinians, as a people, have the Right of Self-Determination. The "Question of Palestine" is (in part) a question of how they can exercise the Right. Hell, Mahmoud Abbas is now reigning over the State of Palestine in the 16th year of his four-year term.

Tell me about the Right of Self-Determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories,

That is what Britain called Palestine when it was handing it over to the UN.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And the Arab Palestinians, as a people, have the Right of Self-Determination. The "Question of Palestine" is (in part) a question of how they can exercise the Right.

Palestinians have been killed by the thousands trying to assert their rights and getting called terrorists along the way.

 

[danielpalos]

In purely my own opinion, Religious States are no better than Communist States when they cannot bear true witness to their own Constitution or even Ten simple Commandments from God. How faithful is that?

 

[rylah]

Palestinians have been killed by the thousands trying to assert their rights and getting called terrorists along the way.

Indeed it's because of their terrorist tactics
that they're supposedly killed by "the thousands"
in the midst of the least lethal conflict in the Middle East.

Each time you're given a chance to refute that, you start the Jihadi duck dance...

How Many Gaza Palestinians Were Killed by Hamas Rockets in May? An Estimate

Much of the coverage and commentary surrounding the fighting in May between Hamas and Israel has focused on numbers, especially the much larger number of Palestinians than Israelis killed. The number

besacenter.org

 

[P F Tinmore]

Should the US be neutral on Israel-Palestine? | Head to Head​

 

[watchingfromafar]

Should the US be neutral on Israel-Palestine? | Head to Head

You can not be neutral when American tax dollars are being used to support a government that commits the following

The Israeli IDF sniper teams have murdered hundreds of Palestinian children
https://tinyurl.com/32yekhjk

Israelis destroy Palestinian homes and murder whoever is inside
https://tinyurl.com/47s4nm28

Israelis destroy Palestinian fishing boats cutting off needed food for its people
https://tinyurl.com/4a8zj84c

If it was any other country on the face of this planet we, the American people would NOT be supporting this rouge country with $$$$ but rather applying sanctions to the toughest extent possible.
If only--?
Just Google "USS Liberty"

https://tinyurl.com/2p95rpfy

-

 

[Mindful]

You can not be neutral when American tax dollars are being used to support a government that commits the following

Ever heard of loan guarantees?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Support
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

You can not be neutral when American tax dollars are being used to support a government that commits the following

The Israeli IDF sniper teams have murdered hundreds of Palestinian children
https://tinyurl.com/32yekhjk

(COMMENT)

I would be interested in seeing the Crime Scene Investigation for these "murdered hundreds of Palestinian children."

The Arab-Palestinian Propaganda Machine is overpopulated by drama queens that over-exaggerate allegations of perceived War Crimes.

The Arab Palestinians generally project the idea that they are always the victim and have no capability; when in fact, they routinely violate Rules 23, 24, and 97 in the Red Cross Database.

Israelis destroy Palestinian homes and murder whoever is inside
https://tinyurl.com/47s4nm28

(COMMENT)

This claim is evidence of just how unreliable the claims and allegations are.

Israelis destroy Palestinian fishing boats cutting off needed food for its people

https://tinyurl.com/4a8zj84c

(COMMENT)

Again, this is an over-exaggeration of the Blockade activity.

If it was any other country on the face of this planet we, the American people would NOT be supporting this rouge country with $$$$ but rather applying sanctions to the toughest extent possible.

If only--?
Just Google "USS Liberty"

https://tinyurl.com/2p95rpfy

(COMMENT)

This event (involving the USS Liberty) took place over a half-century ago under unusual conditions in a time of war. The Liberty was a SIGINT asset just north of the Egyptian-Israeli frontier in Israeli waters during a conflict between the two countries. In the US, covert SIGINT platforms are obviously American. But if you wanted to conduct a clandestine SIGINT mission, sometimes it might be rather convenient (operationally sound) to appear to be an American Ship. It might be just confusing enough to allow a territorial water penetrator to escape capture.

Rogue Country → what is that? How does one country defend against the allegation of being a "Rogue State." What distinctions or characteristics are does a nation have that warrants the allegation of being a "Rogue State" applicable. Or is this another undefined term?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Support
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

(COMMENT)

I would be interested in seeing the Crime Scene Investigation for these "murdered hundreds of Palestinian children."
View attachment 577345
The Arab-Palestinian Propaganda Machine is overpopulated by drama queens that over-exaggerate allegations of perceived War Crimes.

The Arab Palestinians generally project the idea that they are always the victim and have no capability; when in fact, they routinely violate Rules 23, 24, and 97 in the Red Cross Database.

(COMMENT)

This claim is evidence of just how unreliable the claims and allegations are.

(COMMENT)

Again, this is an over-exaggeration of the Blockade activity.

(COMMENT)

This event (involving the USS Liberty) took place over a half-century ago under unusual conditions in a time of war. The Liberty was a SIGINT asset just north of the Egyptian-Israeli frontier in Israeli waters during a conflict between the two countries. In the US, covert SIGINT platforms are obviously American. But if you wanted to conduct a clandestine SIGINT mission, sometimes it might be rather convenient (operationally sound) to appear to be an American Ship. It might be just confusing enough to allow a territorial water penetrator to escape capture.

Rogue Country → what is that? How does one country defend against the allegation of being a "Rogue State." What distinctions or characteristics are does a nation have that warrants the allegation of being a "Rogue State" applicable. Or is this another undefined term?

Most Respectfully,
R

You're joking, right?

Look at your own chart.

 

[Hollie]

You're joking, right?

Look at your own chart.

You're only kidding yourself.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel/Palestine Policy Debate: Peter Beinart vs. Josh Hammer​

A major flaw in Josh Hammer's argument is that he states that all of the territory between the river and the sea belongs to Israel. He believes that when Israel took over the Mandate for Palestine, it inherited all of the Mandate's territory.

The problem is that the Mandate did not have any territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

DEBATE: Israel-Palestine w/ Peter Beinart & Yehuda HaKohen | The Great Debate #39​